Left Foot Braking

[Opposite_Lock]

I thought I'd post this in the suspension/wheels forum. I'ts funny how 240's were made for handlling yet this is one of the least posted forums on nico. Seems everyone is to busy posting on the Sr forum, which is living proof of the Sr bandwagon, and the need for speed down a str8 line. That was the frame of mind that was responsible for the 240's getting the cold shoulder during the 90's. You know, that frame of mind that if a car wasn't fast down a str8 line, it wasn't worth owning.

Now back to the topic, I was wondering if left foot braking would be an ideal way of initiating a drift. The thing is i dont know when to start it. Should I down shift, then do it.... or Left foot brake, then downshift before turn in. I'm lost. If you guys have ever seen that drift video of the black 180sx drifting( I think its the koguchi 180sx) you'll notice he does this. His front wheels lock up while his rear wheels continue to spin, but if you pay attention carefully to his wheels youll see that he differs the amount of gas he gives depending on how much he 's braking, and vice versa for the amount of braking.

This left foot braking technique really appeals to me because you can keep the revs high through out the corner and accelerate faster at the exit ( this is ideal for turbo cars so they'll run higher boost at exit therefore reducing turbo lag).

I need some one to clear this up. I know one downside about left foot braking which is that it wears out your brakes rather quickly, are there any other downsides that would make this technique unideal. Should it be performed at certain times and if yes when.

Thanks,I'm awaiting your input, very excited to read some replie

[yeswepromise]

i have a little bit of input...left foot braking is a technique that i believe would be very difficult to master (for drift). i have seen many pro drifters use this technique, probably the most popular example would be the one you mentioned, the black 180sx driven by Koguchi-san. i also have seen it personally by Orido-san when he drove the RS*R z33 at the RS*R drift event here in california. from what i can tell, i think you need to initiate the drift first with whatever method you use, and then after that use the left foot braking to control or modify the drift.

[WingsNThangs]

I thought I'd post this in the suspension/wheels forum. I'ts funny how 240's were made for handlling yet this is one of the least posted forums on nico. Seems everyone is to busy posting on the Sr forum, which is living proof of the Sr bandwagon, and the need for speed down a str8 line. That was the frame of mind that was responsible for the 240's getting the cold shoulder during the 90's. You know, that frame of mind that if a car wasn't fast down a str8 line, it wasn't worth owning.

You're making very strong assumptions there. Nissan never officially said 240SX's were made for handling and not speed. It is a generalization that is socially constructed in the import world. It's all up to where the enthusiast wants the car to shine: drag strip, parking lot, track, or street.

HKS made a 240SX drag car, i've seen it in person. 240SX wasnt "made" to do anything but drive.

Drag racing seems to be a dominant competition in American car culture. It is quintessential of American muscle cars, and even a social icon. Europeans and other non-Americans buy pure-bred American muscle and classic cars for their striaght-line speed. Ain't nothing wrong with that. I would think the drag scene is exciting.

And foreign cars (i.e. 240SX) being sold in the US domestic market are sold to the American public (obviously). And the American public is heavily influenced by American car culture (obviously). Therefore they would want to modify their cars to reflect this car culture.

I've never been to Europe or Japan, but i doubt the drag scene in other countries is anywhere near comparable to America's. Generally speaking, NASCAR is an America thing, D1 is a Japanese thing, Lemans is a European thing. Different countries, different outlook on competitive driving.

[Opposite_Lock]

Wow, yeswepromise, you really know your stuff, so i initiate the drift with whatever technique I'm accustom to and then use LFB to modify or control it. Makes sense.... but then something else comes to mind. Why do most drifters use e-brake to control or modify a drift. I know you said that its very difficult to master the LFB technique, which you then support with the mention of some top drifters, but, I've seen many well known and proffesional drifters still use E-brake. Not that I'm leaning towards using the E-brake, but i would like to know why they rather use E-brake over LFB for maintaining or modifying their drifts.

[Holisticbeatz]

yeswepromise drives an automatic

[yeswepromise]

actually i dont know my stuff. most of that was just guessing. while typing out all that stuff i never even thought about the hand brake. i will have to watch some more videos and try to determine why LFB is used.and yes i drive an automatic. it is the luxury form of transmission. it shifts itself so i dont have to. (note: i hate my transmission and and waiting for the day to swap trannys)

[Opposite_Lock]

Thanksfor your reply wingsNthings, you make many valid points. I know the 240SX was not "MADE" for handling but it's rear wheel drive setup and independant multi link suspension hints to the potential buyer that this car was designed so the consumer can enjoy a weekend drive down a twisted road, and the fact that they didn't put a more powerful engine only makes this cars initial purpose much more evident.

Now, this may seem funny but I suspected someonewould reply with the HKS 180SX drag car, but what you gotta think about is, how many more road racing Silvias and 180sx's outweight that of Drag Racing ones.

Also, their are many types of enthusiasts, their are drag racing enthusiasts, road racing enthusiasts, etc. Now each enthusiast, whether a drag racing enthusiast or a road racing enthusiast chooses his or her car based on it's potential to be good at a certain type of racing.

So why would a dragster prefer a Camaro over a 240SX, which begs for another question to be asked.

Why would a road racer choose a 240SX over a Camaro? Because of the potential one has to be better at something than the other one (obviously).

Like you said, " Europeans and other non-Americans buy pure-bred American muscle and classic cars for their striaght-line speed" Hmmm, why dont they buy 240s for their straight line speed...because the potential isn't there.

Heck, if I was heavily into drag racing, I would choose american muscle to, but if you ask me, road racing is much more fun and rewarding. I'm pretty sure many of the NICO members would agree with me on that. When all it takes for someone to beat you at drag racing is having put more money in their engine than you, it's rewarding to think to yourself, "Man, even though he beat me at drag racing, I'd rip him a new ***hole at the track" <--- I'm pretty sure many of you 240sx owners can admit to this guilty pleasure.

About nissan selling to the American Public. Why, (if the american public is heavily influenced by the american car culture which is predominantly into drag racing) for instance, does the 350Z regardless of trim, produce the same horsepower, yet increases in performance that would be a sin to use on anything BUT a road course.

Now is the 350Z not made for handling either, because I never "Officially" heard Nissan say it was. You know who I did hear saying it though... the real car enthusiasts. A manufacturer can say all they want about a car, but if the enthusiasts don't agree those former statements aren't worth s*** okay.

Those days of choosing a car for it's str8 line performance are over. The lacking sales of american cars in general ( which cater to the american culture you speak of) , aswell as the discontinuation of the CAMARO/FIREBIRD which are drag racing legends, is proof enough. Even the Americans are catching on to this, which is evident in the new Pontiac Grand-Am with comp G.

Now your statements were in some perspective Valid...except this one, " The 240SX wasn't made to do anything but drive"Wait... I thought all cars were made to drive wingsNthings, I mean, arent they all. So answer me this, If the 240sx wasn't made to do anythything but drive, what seperates it from say... a Toyota Tercel huh? Cause if you ask me, the only car in America that "Literally" was'nt made to do ANYTHING but drive was the toyota Tercel, hands down.

I have so much more to say but I'd rather wait for a response from you wingsNthings. Also I'd like to say that I hope you take this as a sharing of opinions, rather than flaming.

[drift-sx]

umm isn't left foot breaking to enduse overstear in ff cars that normaly are affected with heavy understear? a fr car doesn't need left foot breaking becuase they already overstear. there is such thing as a breaking drift but that is not using your left foot that is to shift the load of the car and using the momentum to swing your car aroudn the apex of the turn.

[drift-sx]

and why use the e-break. if you ever asked a profesional "how could i learn to drift" they would say use the e-break it is the most elementary way to initiate the drift its the basics. you have to master the basics before you can learn other techniques. and why do profesionals use the e-break? becuase differnt situations call for different techniques a profesional probably doesn't even think and jsut knows what the best way to tackle any givin corner

[drift-sx]

and someone upthere said that left foot breaking is ideal becuase it keeps up revs? no i think you are talking about heal-toe. heal-toe is when you are breaking and giving gas(to keep revs up) while you have the clutch depressed this allows you to maintain speed or even gain speed going through the corner. but takes lots of practices and you have to be skilled at rev matching as to not jerk or jolt the car which could cause a spin out.

sorry for the 3 posts but i just kept reading i should have put it in one what can you do.

[Dori Dori]

Generally, yes, left foot braking is used mainly by ff drivers. It's also very popular in rally.

I see lfb a rwd car mainly as a preferance thing...if, as a driver, you like the technique and are comfortable doing it, go ahead and experiment with it. If not, work on it on other racing methods before pricticing them while drifting. Heel-toe is a very good one to learn.

[Dori Dori]

and why use the e-break. if you ever asked a profesional "how could i learn to drift" they would say use the e-break it is the most elementary way to initiate the drift its the basics. you have to master the basics before you can learn other techniques. and why do profesionals use the e-break? becuase differnt situations call for different techniques a profesional probably doesn't even think and jsut knows what the best way to tackle any givin corner

The Pro's do use the ebrake, but I agree that it is definately not the only way people should be initiating drifts.

[Dori Dori]

and someone upthere said that left foot breaking is ideal becuase it keeps up revs? no i think you are talking about heal-toe. heal-toe is when you are breaking and giving gas(to keep revs up) while you have the clutch depressed this allows you to maintain speed or even gain speed going through the corner. but takes lots of practices and you have to be skilled at rev matching as to not jerk or jolt the car which could cause a spin out.

No, it is used to keep the revs up...more specifically to keep the car in it's powerband while braking and steering. It's also used to keep turbos spooling (not needed if ALS is in place though which a lot of race cars have).

Heel-toe is for rev matching while downshifting...not for keeping the revs up while turning.

[Dori Dori]

Oops.:oface

[drift-sx]

no heal- toe is tho keeps revs up how would you keep your revs up while you were breaking. what it does is apply breaks while giving a counter force pushing your car to the out side. jsut like if you take a fast turn and give no acceleration you will be pulled outward. but with acceleration you can maintain grip. left foot breaking allows you to slow down with out flying to the outsidfe becuase you still have acceleration

[Dori Dori]

No man, heel-toe came about because in race cars, they have no syncros. When you downshift, you'd have to match the engine speed with that of the transmission or you'd grind your gears, mis-shift, whatever... How would you accomplish that while braking? Heel-toe downshifting. Also, if you don't heel-toe downshift in a modern car with syncros, you'll jolt the entire vehicle thowing off the cars balance (and strain your entire driveline).

[drift-sx]

ok first off i may be wrong but i am going to explain my theory anyways so here goes1. first i asked how left foot breaking would keep revs up

2. i can heal toe in my 240 i find it to be a modern car and i can do it without jerking the car and it helps actually make for smoother fast turning and downshifting also it is possible to rev match in a modern car i drove around with a meswsed up clutch for a while and it barly alowed me to start the car without stalling i had to rev match to shift gears so technically it works jsut fine on modern cars. and i know for a fact drifters use heal toe for the reasons i stated. smooth down shifting at high rpms.

Kinda of topic i think we should have a drifting section on this form to clear things up. like this.

[C-Kwik]

double-clutching was used to match gears. Heel-toe(not heal) is used to get yourself into the gear most optimized for maintaining speed and exiting a turn in prior to entering the turn. If you botch a downshift midturn and your tires are at maximum lateral grip when you do, you could start sliding. If done badly you can even spin out. If you slide at all, you have to counter to get the car back inline and now you've lost a few precious tenths of seconds.

Left foot braking can be used for several things. Done correctly, it can take you trailbraking a little deeper since you can smooth out the transition between braking and getting on the gas to maintain speed in a turn. Its also been used by some to do clutchless heel-toe. Paul Chenoire(used to drive that nasty Hyundai AWD Tiburon in the WRC) used to use this technique very effectively. It's a failry new technique though and some racing schools won't even teach it.

[Dori Dori]

ok first off i may be wrong but i am going to explain my theory anyways so here goes1. first i asked how left foot breaking would keep revs up

2. i can heal toe in my 240 i find it to be a modern car and i can do it without jerking the car and it helps actually make for smoother fast turning and downshifting also it is possible to rev match in a modern car i drove around with a meswsed up clutch for a while and it barly alowed me to start the car without stalling i had to rev match to shift gears so technically it works jsut fine on modern cars. and i know for a fact drifters use heal toe for the reasons i stated. smooth down shifting at high rpms.

Kinda of topic i think we should have a drifting section on this form to clear things up. like this.

I think I just don't understand you and you don't understand me...at all. I have a feeling english is not your first language.

[EastCoast240]

I don't know about you guys but my damn leg cramps up when trying to heel toe. I have to try and use both sides of my foot

[whitebeau]

heel-toe : used for downshifting & decelorating the car at the same time. by pressing on the brake with part of one foot, uses the brakes to decelerate, at the same time with the same foot, applying gas to prepare rpm speed matching with rotation of tires before entry.... <-- this style can be modified for drifting by doing a clutchkick style if u wish to power drift into a turn. in the end it's all the same, balancing the wieght/force distribution for proper entry.

Left Foot Braking: sums up to the end of the above, all about wieght transfer. c-kwik gots the 'theory' down pretty good.

think about what would happen if u left foot braked prior to entry while on the gas?

1; spin the back tires & get the rpms up.....

which would be beneficial to get it in the 'powerband'.

would be unbeneficial due to excessive/un-needed wear on the brakes....

From what i've seen, nobody has done 'perstyle' a leftfoot brake entry... it's un-needed... standard style of initiating a drift is brake drifting.... by that i mean. INSANE entry speed, "this style is also known as brake drifting".

coming upon a turn waaay to fast, balanceing your entry speed just right to be able to get ON the brakes causing severe dive/wieght transfer to the front tires.

while transfer/feeling the shift of the car to the front tires, begin initiating the turnin... if still observing understeer you can...:

trail brake to bring the back end out... give the ebrake a pull to bring the back end out... clutchkick to bring the back end out. If the above does happen btw, it means your entry was way to fast for that style for the cars setup... or if u got a heavily modified ride,or past the cars limits... you may want to either make a slower entry to prevent understeer... or try a "finland-flick?" <--can't remember the nickname for it. well.. anyhow, it's also called a feint drift... where u initiate a turn/flick away from the entry direction on the straight... then turn/flick it to the entry/apex of the turn. you may need to adjust throttle position & or apply the brakes to induce the proper wieght transfer to begin the slide.... and to cover the first of the above paragraphs and this one.... it's then control of the throttle and steering if your entry was properly executed...

Hope none of u live up here in the north seattle area.... i drift to and from work.. speakin of which.. i'm off and headin home.. it's 1am... time to have fun.... yeah i do the solo 2 class stuff at the boeing parking lot up here if any of u from around here...

oh last ramble... the toe-heel technique can be done where ever you go.. it's a good skill to get down.... i've passed multiple high hp cars into a turn... in a turn.. and exiting a turn because the driver doesn't drive there car to the limits... hopefully sometimes this year i plan on getting an LSD setup.... i hear that'd make exits a little quicker ... more controlled....

love reading your guys/girls posts... i just don't post much... lol uhh reading the above.. i'm sure u'r all glad :P

[whitebeau]

i got a 240 because of this show..

Initial D.

check it... the ramblings of the movie are pretty damn spotton... although i wouldn't go meet your local guardrail to see how close u2 can be buddy buddy sideways.... the movie is pretty damn inspiring....

ok ok.. quite ripping.. u all know u'd love to master the ditch drift technique!