Learned'd VIII: Less Bewbs, Same Nonsense

[MinisterofDOOM]

OY! There's a music forum! I posted in it!
post6504698.html#p6504698

[frapjap]

Sup G's. Looked at a ZZ4 for the T/A this past weekend. It didn't have the right heads so I passed, but now the bug has bitten again!

[WDRacing]

Don't wanna rebuild your motor aye?

[Kompresshun]

Why ZZ4? ZZ4 is old news yo. LSX or go home.

[frapjap]

Don't wanna rebuild your motor aye?

Its a 305TBI. Rebuilding to restore its 180hp would be senseless.

Why ZZ4? ZZ4 is old news yo. LSX or go home.

In the long run, the ZZ4 is cheaper and quicker to make work in my chassis and mates to my already built transmission without modification. The only way the LSx would be quicker would be to get one specifically from an F body, but those are the engines/transmissions that cost the most.

Its really a time thing. The car isn't a daily driver so I couldn't give a damn about gas mileage, nor is there concern in the carb's tune from season to season.

[Kompresshun]

About the only thing a 305 TBI is good for is a boat anchor. Seriously, those motors sucked a**.

Why not go for an LT1 then? That shouldn't be a bad swap either. I'm not against ZZ4's, but there are so many better engine options out there these days.

[frapjap]

I considered LT1 but after researching, there is a lot more involved than previously assumed. If I'm going to futz with wiring and making a transmission adapter, the LSx is a much better choice. Another option I have is to make something unique- using a 3.8 and getting a supercharger from a laterally mounted engine from Australia Andy.

The ultimate goal is to be reasonably priced, somewhat reliable, and to make some okay power. Honestly, any improvement over the power I have would be acceptable.

[WDRacing]

Why not just throw a remote mount turbo onto the old 305? I know they aren't great motors, but they still make over 250ft lbs of torque. HP numbers don't matter, it's all about the torque.

A cheapy diy remote mount turbo could be done for about $1500 bucks all included. That's a low boost setup, something like 6 psi. On a V8 you'll gain about 80whp.

It can always stay on the car after you upgrade motors later on. Let me know if you're interested Ray, I'll price out some parts and whatnot.

[frapjap]

Why not just throw a remote mount turbo onto the old 305? I know they aren't great motors, but they still make over 250ft lbs of torque. HP numbers don't matter, it's all about the torque.

A cheapy diy remote mount turbo could be done for about $1500 bucks all included. That's a low boost setup, something like 6 psi. On a V8 you'll gain about 80whp.

It can always stay on the car after you upgrade motors later on. Let me know if you're interested Ray, I'll price out some parts and whatnot.

I like the idea of it. One of my tail pipes even fell off so I have the right place to put it! Any used turbo could work; hell even an SR T25 or 28 would be decent.
The only downside is that while building the system is easy (especially since having built one now), I have no stellar way to tune it.

I can adjust base timing, but not the rest of the ignition table. Fuel can be managed with an FPR, but the TBI pump only operates around 9-12psi (at the injectors), with a typical max of 15 before locking up the injectors. I'd guess that I'd need at least 15psi-20psi to keep from running lean.
I'd need to do some math to find some larger injectors that fit without too much modification, especially of the electronic type. Easy enough to find a solution to.
However, since that pressure is at the injectors, I *might* be able to get away with my current pump, but definitely not the injectors.

That might be all that is holding me back, aside from an oil pump, coolant pump, SS lines & fittings, and return piping to the intake.

Thoughts?

[frapjap]

http://www.dynamicefi.com/TBI_Fueling.php
Nice link.

[frapjap]

Heh, this gets rid of a lot of hardware modifications.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/sts-style-rearm ... 23&vxp=mtr
Its probably missing some hardware, but its a reasonable, cheap start with some fabbing required.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Why not just throw a remote mount turbo onto the old 305? I know they aren't great motors, but they still make over 250ft lbs of torque. HP numbers don't matter, it's all about the torque.

Agreed. Low comp, iron block and heads...it's basically BEGGING for boost. I wonder if you could push 20psi without rebuilding the bottom end?

[WDRacing]

Heh, this gets rid of a lot of hardware modifications.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/sts-style-rearm ... 23&vxp=mtr
Its probably missing some hardware, but its a reasonable, cheap start with some fabbing required.

Not sure how quality that turbo is, but that's not a bad price considering what you get.

For fueling I was going to suggest keeping the stock system as is, but adding a standalone fuel system that controls fuel on boost only. You'd use a variable voltage controller, like this one, an external fuel pump, like this one, a standard relay and a high end nozzle. You'd just need to run another supply line to your fuel tank.

I like the idea of a stand alone system because I know TBI injection is miserable to modify.

If you need to retard more timing and you don't like just using a baseline retard, you can use the MSD BTM. It retards a tuneable amount per psi of boost. I used it on my 240SX awhile back, works awesome.

[frapjap]

Not a bad way to fuel. How do you inject the additional fuel into the injectors? Do you run both fuel lines into the unit (the new one from the new pump AND the old lines?) Its an interesting piece of tech and sounds viable.

I didn't know the BTM's existed. I currently have an MSD 6A box in the car. Do you happen to know if these play well together, or if I can add the BTM to the current box? A quick google search shows a bunch of people asking the same question without solid answers.

[WDRacing]

The stock system and injectors stay exactly as they are. What you're doing is adding a complete subinjection system. You'll run a second supply line from the tank to the fuel pump. Then from the fuel pump to a fuel nozzle. Similar to the way a nitrous system works accept you'll be controlling the fuel pump flow rather then the jet size. This allows the system to be variable flow rather then a fixed amount. Nitrous jets also require high pressure nitrous to atomize the fuel. We're using a fogger nozzle instead of a nitrous jet, so we'll be able to atomize the fuel even at lower pressures.

The nozzle you're going to use is about $35. But it's worth it compared to the other nozzles on the market.

This method of fuel delivery is very similar to using alcohol injection except we're using your fuel tank and gasoline instead of a separate container and methanol.

They make a MSD-6BTM, not sure if you can piggy back the standard BTM to a MSD 6 though. If I think about how it works, I don't see why not. The BTM would be wired in before the 6, so the 6 receives the retarded ignition signal from the BTM.

The 6 is just an ignition amplifier right? Worse case you lose the 6 and get a high voltage coil instead.

Since the 305 is probably only running 8.5:1 compression, you'll probably be able to just retard the timing a few degree's at the dizzy and be fine anyway. It depends on how well this system will work and whatnot. Not sure I'd want to run more than 6-8 psi until you improve the cooling system. Also, you're going to need an improved PCV system. I suggest a boost triggered electric pump to keep a vacuum on the sump. This is pretty easy to setup as well. Here's a quick link with some pics of what I'm talking about. http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/3 ... ump-setup-

[frapjap]

The stock system and injectors stay exactly as they are. What you're doing is adding a complete subinjection system. You'll run a second supply line from the tank to the fuel pump. Then from the fuel pump to a fuel nozzle. Similar to the way a nitrous system works accept you'll be controlling the fuel pump flow rather then the jet size. This allows the system to be variable flow rather then a fixed amount. Nitrous jets also require high pressure nitrous to atomize the fuel. We're using a fogger nozzle instead of a nitrous jet, so we'll be able to atomize the fuel even at lower pressures.

Where would you spray into? The intake? The bowl on the TBI unit?

There isn't much space there, especially since a boost leak is pretty easy to have on the intake seal for the TBI unit.

They make a MSD-6BTM, not sure if you can piggy back the standard BTM to a MSD 6 though. If I think about how it works, I don't see why not. The BTM would be wired in before the 6, so the 6 receives the retarded ignition signal from the BTM.

The 6 is just an ignition amplifier right? Worse case you lose the 6 and get a high voltage coil instead.

Since the 305 is probably only running 8.5:1 compression, you'll probably be able to just retard the timing a few degree's at the dizzy and be fine anyway. It depends on how well this system will work and whatnot. Not sure I'd want to run more than 6-8 psi until you improve the cooling system. Also, you're going to need an improved PCV system. I suggest a boost triggered electric pump to keep a vacuum on the sump. This is pretty easy to setup as well. Here's a quick link with some pics of what I'm talking about. http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/3 ... ump-setup-

It'd be extremely unlikely that I'd ever run more than 6-8psi.

In regards to the vacuum pump- do you think my AIR/smog pump could be re-reouted to use as a vacuum pump for the PCV system? Its just hanging out there right now, doing nothing, since I don't have a cat.

I'm going to start tallying up some costs and see where it gets me. This sounds like a good idea so far in theory, but its only a good idea if its relatively cheap compared to other options.

[WDRacing]

Looking at that TBI, I'd say we might want to run two nozzles, one per side. We'll have to measure the distance and use some brass spacers to have the nozzles run right down the center groove beside each injector. God TBI sucks the huge throbbing member.

I forgot just how much those injectors get in the way of the flow.

The hardest part is going to be getting the "carb hat" to seal under boost.

Is you're smog pump electric or belt?

[WDRacing]

After a little reading, supposedly you can remove the fpr spring from the internal regulator. This will unregulate the fuel flow allowing you to use a standard adjustable fpr on the return line. Also, since we're now talking about fuel pressure mods, you could just run a FMU and a FPR. The fmu will increase fuel pressure a certain amount per psi of boost. I'd say something like a 6:1 would work well.

Not sure how the injectors will hold up under that pressure though...did I mention TBI sucks?

[WDRacing]

Just gonna drop this, food for thought. Propane subinjection...

[frapjap]

Looking at that TBI, I'd say we might want to run two nozzles, one per side. We'll have to measure the distance and use some brass spacers to have the nozzles run right down the center groove beside each injector. God TBI sucks the huge throbbing member.

I forgot just how much those injectors get in the way of the flow.

The hardest part is going to be getting the "carb hat" to seal under boost.

Is you're smog pump electric or belt?

Smog pump is belt driven, which would make sense to use to me.

The carb hat is a b****. I saw a clip on youtube of some guy who welded something on, but didn't watch the video yet. Either way, welding won't be the answer- but a crap ton of RTV might. You know, after the routing for additional fuel is taken care of.

After a little reading, supposedly you can remove the fpr spring from the internal regulator. This will unregulate the fuel flow allowing you to use a standard adjustable fpr on the return line. Also, since we're now talking about fuel pressure mods, you could just run a FMU and a FPR. The fmu will increase fuel pressure a certain amount per psi of boost. I'd say something like a 6:1 would work well.

Not sure how the injectors will hold up under that pressure though...did I mention TBI sucks?

TBI does indeed blow. Its fantastic in terms of longevity for the engine, but awful for everything else. I'm all for removing the FPR spring and adding an FMU. That's a WAY less expensive solution. The injectors that are in it suck, but I'd imagine that upgrades with different flow rates are available since GM made every style of cubic inch with TBI delivery at some point. I'll have to research the flow rates of whats available and is plug and play.

[WDRacing]

The problem will be in tuning for larger injectors. I don't hear good things about tuning with TBI.

The FMU removes the need for tuning anyway. It's $150 for the Vortech FMU. It will add all the additional fuel we'll need. I've read that this is actually the way lots of guys are doing the turbo thing with TBI. So apparently the injectors will work under some decent pressure.

If you can rig the smog pump to pull air out of the valve cover through an air/oil separator it will work excellent. We don't need it to pull tons of vacuum, just a few inches will remove blow-by and seal up the block really well.

I'd do this mod regardless of your choice on boost or motor swap. Seal up the valve covers real well and hook that pump up. Attach a vacuum gauge to either the dip stick port or wherever you can to read vacuum and pressure inside the sump. I'm very interested to see how much one of those belt driven pumps will pull. The electric pumps pull about 3-4 inches. They can be hooked to an amplifier for short periods to pull 6-7 psi. This actually helps seal the rings to the cylinder walls and generates more power through a more efficient combustion.

I'll do some more reading today to see if I can come up with a good way to seal that TBI area for boost.

[WDRacing]

My Chevy Express 5.7 is also TBI and I'm going to remote turbo it one of these days. So I have a vested interest in seeing this through Ray. If you have some decent links with actual info link them dudes up. I'm probably going to fabricate a spacer of some sort that will be directly sealed to the the TBI itself. Something permanently mounted to the TBI so it will be sealed.

I'm going to go the route of subinjection myself. Far easier to tune imho.

I understand if you don't think the 305 is worth all the effort though. I'm starting with a much better platform

[MinisterofDOOM]

I drove a Chevy Express recently. The passenger mirror was USELESS. "Objects in mirror are closer than they appear" was dead opposite of the truth. It was like the mirror had 20x magnification. I could see about 1/10th of the area I needed to know what was going on next to me. The concave lower mirror showed what was beside the truck just fine. but behind me? Couldn't see s***.

[WDRacing]

Mines an 01, so I have the standard "objects are f*** closer then they look" mirrors.

[frapjap]

My Chevy Express 5.7 is also TBI and I'm going to remote turbo it one of these days. So I have a vested interest in seeing this through Ray. If you have some decent links with actual info link them dudes up. I'm probably going to fabricate a spacer of some sort that will be directly sealed to the the TBI itself. Something permanently mounted to the TBI so it will be sealed.

I'm going to go the route of subinjection myself. Far easier to tune imho.

I understand if you don't think the 305 is worth all the effort though. I'm starting with a much better platform

Heres some more research I've been doing.
This guy built a pretty suitable adapter plate for the TBI that you might be interested in duplicating and adapting to modify to accept bolts to keep the TBI hat on.
http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/3 ... bo-TBI-305
Post 16, last photo link.

I found a place for injectors:
http://www.injectors4u.com/tbi_injectors.htm

Also found a really good article on blow through setups for carbs- with pics! Most applies to a TBI,too.
http://www.hangar18fabrication.com/blowthru.html
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/blowing ... 79511.html

Loads of good info here, too.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/power ... stuff.html

But you're right, its hard to justify spending money on a tired old, swirl port head, 305 TBI.
Especially when that same cash can be used as a very good start to a good n/a engine.
At its basic cost (and being conservative finding the right parts for the right price, heres a rough idea of our costs (not including necessities like a Wideband because no matter what FI you use, its required and thus a moot point to include.

T3/4Turbo (used) 700
Fittings 50
External wastegate 150
BOV (used) 50
TBI plate 40
SS lines 79.8
Oil pump 150
Piping, couplers 170
Adjustable FPR 180
Injectors 100
Welding materials 170

Total 1899.8

So $1900, not including the little things like misc hardware, bolts, nuts, vacuum lines, etc that are bound to pop up. Next, we run a cost/risk analysis.

You could also do something like this guy:
http://www.tbi-superchargers.com/TBI-Su ... raina.html
For all intensive purposes, he has a supercharged TBI. Also, there are a lot of good links on the page for what parts he's used.

The kit he's rocking is widely reputable, especially in the truck world.
http://www.tbi-superchargers.com/TBI-Su ... 5_TBI.html

It has a somewhat high cost, but everything you'll need is there, aside from an FPR. Even comes with a PROM to install.
$2375 plus an FPR and injectors leaves you around $2500 with a reliable setup and no headaches.

Or, P1SC kits come up from time to time. Granted, they'll take a bit to make work, but are a little less work than a turbo setup.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-Procharger- ... 9c&vxp=mtr

But, if I'm looking at spending approx. $2,000-$2500, why not buy a new GM crate engine, add an intake and carb to it and have a reliable driver that still moves quick enough to be exciting?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet+Perform ... 9/10002/-1

Its a very tempting purchase and almost makes more sense than spending the same kind of money on a tired old 305.

I don't mind spending the money, and I do want to do something with the T/A, but it should make financial sense, too.

[Kompresshun]

If I were buying a motor and going through the trouble of a swap, it should make no less than 325 HP and preferably 375+ HP.

Buy this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-b ... /chevrolet

A little more money and you get 375 HP and aluminum heads.

[frapjap]

isn't a shabby solution either!

But, I'd still need an intake manifold and good carb- which can run quite a few extra bucks.

Theres also this slight infringement on this hobby where I plan on marrying the lady I'm with and those shiny, circle shaped things cost some chunks of change, too. Granted she wants absolutely nothing to do with diamonds (whew!) but that that extra $1200 for the more powerful engine+intake+carb is going to be one of those "wtf" moments for her when boxes start showing up on the doorstep. Being an adult and saving for adult things like houses and weddings is a b****. But I knowingly can't put my hobby completely on hold because I fear it'll never come back again.

Well, one of them will have to go on hold (skiing, racing, engines), and if one had to go to make room for the others I fear the racing and engines are where I'll have to trim funds from.

[Kompresshun]

I've been there bud. 6 years ago I gave up both of my projects for an awesome wife and then to have a home of our own. The itch never goes away, but unfortunately the grown up expenses never do either. I try to start saving up for a new project every year and either something on the car breaks or the house. Thankfully though, the longer we're responsible with our money, the sooner we'll be able to free up more funds and pay off more debt.

Speaking of expenses, I just tallied up everything the 500 needs right now and it looks like $1,000 in just parts alone. I don't want to know what the labor will be... Struts all the way around and a new A/C compressor

[WDRacing]

Sadly, you're at the point that most people come to. The TBI 305 simply isn't worth the money it costs to make additional power. When it's all said and done, when you're done spending the money to boost this thing, you're still working with a tired 305.

Sell the motor. Buy an LSx trans adapter for 77 bucks and throw an LSx in.

Don't look back.

[WDRacing]

Speaking of expenses, I just tallied up everything the 500 needs right now and it looks like $1,000 in just parts alone. I don't want to know what the labor will be... Struts all the way around and a new A/C compressor

f***, that sucks dude!