KA24E Vibrates After Coolant Flush!?!

[Twobbles]

A little long, but please check it out and throw out some ideas!!

In preparing to replace my water pump, I flushed the system. It's winter and obviously very cold, so in retrospect using water was probably a terrible idea. Anyway, I filled up the radiator, sealed it up and started the car, thinking it would just warm up anyway and freezing shouldn't be an issue.

Immediately after starting the car I noticed strong vibrations coming from the engine and it almost wanted to die. I ran it for just a minute or 2, then shut it off and drained the water and added antifreeze cause I was worried about freezing issues and I didn't want to keep it running with the vibrations. I ran the car some more with antifreeze, but still had the same problem.

I noticed if I ran the car with the rad cap off, coolant levels would increase even with the air release screw open, so I would have to shut off the car before it would spill out of the radiator. It seemed like I was able to get nearly all the air out and filled it with as much antifreeze as I could hoping to help prevent ice from forming.

Today I want to run it again with the rad cap closed to see if overflow will just fill the reservoir and hopefully coolant levels in the radiator will level out and I can warm it up finally. But I'm concerned that there could still be some ice in there somewhere and I don't want to cause damage to the engine. I considered the vibration may be an issue with the motor mounts just cause I jacked the car up from the cross member under the engine, but that's a common jacking point so I don't really see how that could be an issue.

Also, the oil seems ok with no antifreeze, so it doesn't look like there is any cracking so far. What do people think? If it seems unsafe to start I'll have it towed to some shop until I can be sure its thawed I guess.

[moso]

When filling the coolant on the ka motor its advisable to jack the nose of the car up as high as you can. the motor tends to hold air bubbles in the rear of the block. as far as ice buildup inside the motor, the ka heats up very very fast. less than 5 min for the motor to heat to operating temp.the vibration could be anything from bad motor mounts to your car needing a tune up and running less than perfect, its very unlikely that ice is the culprit here.

[Twobbles]

Yeah I thought about that, but I've never had any vibration like this during idle. Seems more than a coincidence that it started exactly as I'm bleeding the system.

But anyway I went ahead and replaced the water pump, filled it up with coolant and started it up. The vibrations were still there and it sounded a little funny, just different as if it almost wanted to putter out or something. Revving it some didn't change anything, then I checked the exhaust and noticed it was very cloudy, thick, whitish. I checked the oil and it showed it was overfull and the oil was sludgy and off-colored.

So it seems to me like there is coolant in the with the oil and I'm assuming a crack in the block. The coolant is dirty and s*** looking too, more than it should be even without a proper flush. Could it be something other than the block? I'm hoping the engine isn't beyond repair. Any tips on where to go from here would be appreciated.

[Twobbles]

Well I did some more research and I'm thinking it may just be an issue with the intake manifold gasket, so I'm just gonna go ahead and replace that. Hopefully that solves the problem.

[compactfean]

Does your oil look like is mixed with water or antifreeze? If so than its definately not just a intake manifold gasket.

[Twobbles]

No, the oil actually seems normal on the dipstick and around the fill cap when I opened it after I let it sit a while. Just smells like oil too. Maybe it just seemed extra sludgy while it was running cause of extra air in there? Maybe that caused the exhaust to be cloudy and white too?

I had read that if the coolant level in the radiator rises while the car is running it could be the intake manifold gasket, which is what mine does. Seems to make sense cause maybe extra air is being drawn into the system?

[Twobbles]

Ok, so I had it running again, seems to vibrate slightly less and decreases a little as it warms up. Also sounds strange and the exhaust putters out in a chug, chug, chug, chug, sorta way. Here are the symptoms:

- White exhaust with lots of water that drips out, will spray out when on throttle (smells like exhaust from a lawnmower or something, is this rich or lean?)
- No signs of coolant in oil, or oil in coolant. Oil seems normal
- Coolant level seems steady though at half capacity and showing full, but doesn't flow to reservoir
- A strange almost faint sound from back of engine near throttle body, not sure if it's air coming from somewhere or what
- Same rich smell as exhaust from behind throttle body, but changed to a kinda sweet smell like candy or something as the engine warmed up
- No external leaks of coolant or oil or anything that I could see
- Engine vibration smooths out when on throttle, same sound though

At this point it doesn't seem overly serious, maybe not the intake manifold gasket like I thought, but I'm not sure. I just hope its not something that will get worse.

If no one has any ideas here I'll just take it to a shop for some help, seems ok to drive for the moment anyway.

[moso]

the sweet, candy smell and the vapor in the exhaust is a positive indicator for burning coolant. no two ways about it, coolant is getting into the cylinders somehow!

[Twobbles]

Yeah that's a good point, I've been starting to think that may be the case:/ Any suggestions as to how or where? I drove it a bit, and seemed to drive fine other than requiring a bit more throttle when engaging the clutch.

And the oil is good, so it's probably getting into the combustion chamber from the intake? Could it be a bad gasket somewhere? Still no external leaking.

I ordered an intake manifold gasket, but that's down under the throttle body right, with its plane parallel to the ground? I'm thinking if it is leaking to the intake, then maybe at the point where it feeds to the cylinders cause the passage from the upper rad hose is right there too isn't it? If that's the case, seems like it would be a little simpler to fix, but I'm not familiar with the process. Thanks for the help so far.

[moso]

I know on the ka24de the coolant passage for the upper radiator hose runs directly parallel to the number 1cyl. it could leak between the intake manifold and head at the manifold gasket. personally though i would pull the plugs and look for the white ones, that will tell you where your burning coolant. if its not number one, or its multiple cylinders, than its probably a bad head gasket. I suspect the headgasket already because its fairly common.

[Twobbles]

I finally had a chance to check the plugs and it turns out 1 looks normal with only a little soot buildup if anything. The others must be burning some coolant cause they have a progressively greater buildup of a whitish substance. It's just a light coat anyway and I wiped it off and ran the car for a bit. When I checked again it seemed like another layer was starting again, so yep.

Exhaust seems not so bad though, not really any moisture after it started warming up and it wasn't spraying out the tailpipe when on throttle. It only seems a little cloudy, but dissipates quickly...kinda normal like for winter. If there's coolant, is it usually like a lingering white smoke, or just tinted like I described?

[Twobbles]

On a side note, I'm sitting here looking at a cutaway of the engine and thinking that since there's no coolant in the oil, the leak must only be at a cylinder at a point where no oil also travels. Seems hard to believe this same scenario is present in 3 of the 4 cylinders, but maybe not? Is that common or likely? I'm just not to sure where the oil travels in relation to the coolant.

BUT, what if a little coolant leaks in the intake somewhere and just enters the cylinder with the air coming in and burning that way? Could that be!?!

[moso]

my money is on a bad head gasket, but..... there are coolant lines that run into the intake, and its possible (although not probable) that one may be leaking. look into your intake, if there is coolant in there you may be onto something.

[lexcrob]

I reviewed the whole post and I wanted to point out a few things.

As far as the running rough id say you have an air bubble in the system and your ecm coolant temps sensor is reading air or ice LOL..... Fill it up pump the upper rad hose and have heat on defrost. Keep pumping for like 10 minutes. Cut off the heat and continue to pump hose then rev it to 4,000 rpm and hold for a bit a few times to get some air out. Then cut it off and let it sit for 20 min pump hose few more times --- throw on the cap. Top off your over flow a little past max and your golden. Get in the car and go beat the crap out of it looking for HEAVY HEAVY white smoke at WOT if it still runs like poop do this>>

Dont ever look at the color of the exhuast unless its just plain obvious that dear good ive created a cloud kind of effect. In a cold climate moisture will build in your exhuast epecially after starting and stopping alot and not getting to operation temp.

Anyways, at this point i would recommend you buy a cooling system pressure tester! I bought a snap on one for 200$ and id say a shop would charge close to that by the time they got a diagnosis. Anyways you get this little boger fill your cooling system dead cold to the brim* very brim pop it on in place of the cap (review the instructions). Then pump her up to what ever you cap says. (normally its in bar 1.1 1 bar is 14.7psi so eh 15 psi and then go grab some hot chocolate. Wait for eh we'll say 20 minutes look at the gauge and see where its at. It should not have moved at all! If it did look for leaks if you dont find one spray down all lines and hoses including tester with soapy water to look for bubbles. If you dont see anything you've got a internal leak.

GOODLUCK!

[moso]

.....
As far as the running rough id say you have an air bubble in the system and your ecm coolant temps sensor is reading air or ice LOL..... Fill it up pump the upper rad hose and have heat on defrost. Keep pumping for like 10 minutes. Cut off the heat and continue to pump hose then rev it to 4,000 rpm and hold for a bit a few times to get some air out. Then cut it off and let it sit for 20 min pump hose few more times --- throw on the cap. Top off your over flow a little past max and your golden. Get in the car and go beat the crap out of it looking for HEAVY HEAVY white smoke at WOT if it still runs like poop do this>>......

if you do this and you have a bad head gasket be prepared to trash your motor after you decimate your main bearings or throw a rod. instead rent a coolant system pressure tester from autozone for free and save yourself some hassle

[lexcrob]

I didnt even realize you could rent them! I would def. do that then make shur you spray the tester connections down with soapy water! I watched a couple you tube videos about doing it helped alot with tips on how to do it right. Th instructions are kinda sketchy and automotive books normally dont go into detail of what to watch for. If the engine is hot or warm and you pump it up the pressure will drop quite a bit within 20min because of the temp coming down. I never thought it would matter that much but i almost mis daig. a car one time because of that. Just be careful and double triple check it seems easy but it gives odd results sometimes. You can also drain all the coolant and pump it up so there is just air and spray away with the soapy water.

[moso]

the easiest / safest way to bleed the air out of a ka cooling system is to jack the nose of the car way, way up into the air. high as you can get it. then the air will just run up and out of the motor. works every time, never fails.

[lexcrob]

How high do you jack up the nose i've tried it on a 99 camaro and a 240. Ive never had anyluck, I have a "listle spill free funel" and always just pump the hoses never had problems. I top off next day cold in morning if i remember or i just put extra in the overflow.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/3903917526 ... s&var=sbar

Maybe im not jackin it up enough....

[moso]

my 240 is lowered, i get the bumper above my knee. max out my jackstands.

[Twobbles]

Ok thanks guys. I'll make sure all the air is out cause that could just be the problem, I don't really think it's the head gasket. And I know there is air somewhere cause I only put in around half the capacity when I was filling it.

I wondered if maybe the coolant temp sensor was damaged by ice or froze up or something, so I replaced it since I had one laying around anyway. That didn't change anything, but there could still be air in there, possibly a little ice cause I noticed ice forming around the bleeder screw when I was flushing it before, that's when I started to worry. But lexcrob, what do you mean by pumping the rad hose? You mean with an actual pump when the system is closed?

If I manage to bleed everything completely and still have problems with no external leaks anywhere, I'll do compression testing or something and see if there is a leak from within. Thanks again, hopefully it is just air in there.

[lexcrob]

1)With car cold pull cap throw on ur funel.

2)Fill her up bout 3in or so keeping level up as bubbles come out.

3)After a while the bubbles slow down crank up your car turn on your heat to low setting.

4)Just grab the one of the hoses and squeeze it with your hand or both whatever.

5)Keep going until both hoses get warm then cut off heat. (bout 10-15 minutes)

6)Get back out with it still running pump few more times. (by this point its probly smokin almost boiling)

7)Cut car off wait until its completely cooled down funel STILL chilling. Obviously you want it nice and sealed on there.

8)Thow on the cap top off your overflow go take it for a drive.

9)Top it off next morning just to make shur and your ready to rock.


LONG PROCESS BUT IT WORKS FOR EVERY SINGLE MAKE MODEL CAR IVE EVER WORKED ON!

As a mechanic i obviously cant let it cool all the way down so i just throw on cap and put extra in the overflow never had problems there either. Stop at step 6 for the quickie fbody cars /240sx are only cars that dont really like to skip this step as they get a little hotter than normal sometimes on the first drive.



Ill bet you bumped something or took something off gournd strap or broke a connector set your hand on ...... You really cant do any harm doing a coolant service. Unless you were super low and you had a headgasket whatever problem and just didnt have any coolant in system and were running it. Your temp gauge might have said it was all good and you ran it low which would be a FAIL anyways goodluck bro.

You can also start engine with coolant pressure tester on to test for blown headgasket as a double check!

[lexcrob]

1)With car cold pull cap throw on ur funel.

2)Fill her up bout 3in or so keeping level up as bubbles come out.

3)After a while the bubbles slow down crank up your car turn on your heat to low setting.

4)Just grab the one of the hoses and squeeze it with your hand or both whatever.

5)Keep going until both hoses get warm then cut off heat. (bout 10-15 minutes)

6)Get back out with it still running pump few more times. (by this point its probly smokin almost boiling)

7)Cut car off wait until its completely cooled down funel STILL chilling. Obviously you want it nice and sealed on there.

8)Thow on the cap top off your overflow go take it for a drive.

9)Top it off next morning just to make shur and your ready to rock.


LONG PROCESS BUT IT WORKS FOR EVERY SINGLE MAKE MODEL CAR IVE EVER WORKED ON!

As a mechanic i obviously cant let it cool all the way down so i just throw on cap and put extra in the overflow never had problems there either. Stop at step 6 for the quickie fbody cars /240sx are only cars that dont really like to skip this step as they get a little hotter than normal sometimes on the first drive.



Ill bet you bumped something or took something off gournd strap or broke a connector set your hand on ...... You really cant do any harm doing a coolant service. Unless you were super low and you had a headgasket whatever problem and just didnt have any coolant in system and were running it. Your temp gauge might have said it was all good and you ran it low which would be a FAIL anyways goodluck bro.

You can also start engine with coolant pressure tester on to test for blown headgasket as a double check!

[Twobbles]

Just wanted to update again. I was bleeding the cooling system per the instructions from you guys (thanks again btw), just trying to get any air out that may be causing the problems. And I was pretty optimistic cause it seemed like I did have the air out, the car was running normally and idling where it should be, the vibrations pretty much disappeared. But it just sounded a little funny, kinda weak I guess and the exhaust seemed to have more moisture than usual again. Last time I checked it looked ok though.

Anyway I've always consistently checked the oil while running it and I noticed after a while a light buildup of a white kinda creamy/mayonnaise-like stuff, which I know to be coolant. Rest of the oil seems fine though, just a little on the dipstick and a buildup at the top of the inside of the filler cap on the valve cover. At this point I'm going with a bad head gasket (sadly) cause I really don't think it could be anything else. Must just be a small leak somewhere, so I'll replace it. And I'm not sure why cause I don't know how the problem could be so sudden like that, nothing really changed and it was right as I started the engine, so maybe there was just abnormal pressure somehow and the gasket just couldn't handle it.




As a sidenote i guess, if anyone could maybe explain what exactly is going on in there to create this white residue? I'm just curious and would like to have a better understanding of exactly what a bad head gasket means.

The way I look at it now is coolant gets in there with the oil, coolant gets hot and changes to this white stuff. Which means it separates from the water, and I'm wondering where that goes, does it kinda just sit in the oil pan? But why is the white stuff on the dipstick and not mixed with the oil? Unless they don't mix well and can only do so if there is a lot + more water?

I know, long with many questions. I just like to know why. Anyway thanks for any info/foresight/ideas.

[compactfean]

Well it could be a couple things. Head gasket yes, but I would be looking at the oil itself to see id its getting milky. I would suspect that the pcv valve is clogged causing crankcase gases to stay in there and build up causing this nastyness your taking about. Its a sure sign of improper pcv operation.

[lexcrob]

White residue under the cap and on the top of the stick means "moisture" is in your oil. Like compact said your pcv system could possibly be malfunctioning. On a brighter note starting and stopping the engine alot and not running at operating temp. can cause moisture build up. Think about this water boils at lets see 212 F. "Operating temp. of engines is 194 F ballpark. Cooling fans normaly first kick on around 200 and then override the ac fan at 220. Ive never monitored oil temp but id imagine it gets right around boiling on purpose to boil off moisture!

Reguardless if it runs good like you said just top it all off and put a mark on your overflow with a marker. Monitor how much you have to add over a week or so. It will go down as air finds its way out of the system but if it uses up more than half a gallon then aim for that headgasket.

Your not going to do any damage as long as you keep your eyes glued to that temp gauge and check rad. lvl. every once in a while.

(if you do proceed witht he headgasket you'll probly want to do intake gasket/oil pump/chains while your at it)

[Twobbles]

Thanks for the responses guys, it's been helpful. I checked out the PCV valve, which had this same white stuff on it. So I cleaned it up and ran it without the hose to the engine and it had suction, so it seemed to be working alright, I'll keep an eye on it anyway.

I figured maybe you're right lexcrob and the moisture is natural, not from coolant, so I drove it a while and after a bit the exhaust cleared up and the dipstick looked normal again. I'll continue to drive it and keep track of the coolant level and make sure the oil doesn't change. Otherwise I think it's ok! Which is awesome. I hope it stays that way. Now I can replace the valve cover gasket...again.

This moisture though that's in there, that must just accumulate due to condensation, then just stay there if the engine isn't run hot enough to boil it out? Then it must just make it's way through the PCV valve right, then seeya. Seems like maybe that was the only issue, once the air was out of the cooling system anyway.

And thanks again, everyone's help is much appreciated!

[lexcrob]

GOOD NEWS!

on the valve cover just take it off spray EVERYTHING down with brake cleaner! like 2 cans even wipe out the valve cover grove with the corner of rag. spread very thin layer of rtv on valve cover gasket and tube seals torque it all back down!

MAIN THING IS 1 DROP OF OIL WHERE YOU PUT RTV AND IT WONT SEAL!!!

[Twobbles]

Oh nice, ok thanks. Yeah I'm sure I just didn't have it clean enough around the seal last time so I'll make sure to get it right. Great tips! And everything else still seems ok, been running fine with no coolant loss so far and oil is normal. Never gets too hot either. I'm considering using Seafoam to help clean it out in there a bit, anyway I don't think it could hurt but I may be wrong. Do you have any experience with this? Thanks again.

[lexcrob]

I'm really not a fan of any additives their all snake oil for the most part. If its dirty just change the oil more often. Also switching to a "high milage" oil can help as it has more detergents in it.

On that note the only aftermarket air filter I recommend is k&n. If your running any other janky brand filter or were at one point you can point your finger at that as your source of "dirtyness". Besides that just make shur your pcv system is all sealed off not clogged or pinched. I always just pull off the valve cover vent tube block off the intake and leave it just chillin. If you change your oil every 3000 miles MAX your all good.