ka24de turns over, doesn't run, code 11 and 21, need help

[poshatch]

ok so the car is in the middle of being ka-t'ed and im running into these two codes

code 21 primary ignition, looked in the fsm, checked the coil plugs and the car is getting spark and everything just fine

code 11 crank angle sensor, checked harness plug for power and continuity from the plug to the ecu, both check out, replaced with a known working distributor, timed correctly because it cranks, turns over, starts, but wont go into idle/running

ran out of things to check from the fsm

unwrapped the harness to look for damage (doubt it since it just randomly started happening) and there was none, re-wraped it and its still doing it

completely at a loss for what to do, does anybody have any suggestions on what could possibly be doing this (ecu codes were cleared and now it isn't registering the codes as of yet but those were the last codes being thrown.)

[asoomal]

Turns over, starts but won't go into idle/running.

Hmm, to me it sounds like (since you are getting spark) the fuel that is sprayed when the key is switched to on is ignited and burned, however, the CAS isn't sending a signal to the fuel pump (indirectly).

When the CAS is turning, it is constantly telling to the ECU that the engine is running. Then the ECU turns/triggers the fuel pump on as long as it is spinning.

Seems like it is not sending that signal to the ECU.

Now, the following procedure might flood your engine if you do it excessively.

Take out the dizzy, keep the harness on.
Put a fuel pressure gauge after the fuel filter.

When the key is switched to on, fuel pressure should read around 38-41 psi.

Slowly turn the shaft on the dizzy and listen for the injectors clicking and also note the pressure drop on the fuel pressure gauge.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this, make sure the plugs are out and the ignition is disabled!!

[poshatch]

ok that makes sense so to understand this because the cas isnt telling the ecu that its spinning its not sending a signal to the ecu to turn on the fuel pump? that makes sense

ill have to check the fsm again to see if more information is needed for the fuel pump to stay on, would there be a way to bypass the ecu wanting to turn the fuel pump on if i decide that i wanted to do that?

ill go ahead and try to find a pressure gauge and do the procedure you just laid out

this checks to see if its working correctly right? if it is or isn't what would be the next step?

[asoomal]

You could try to jump the fuel pump, I don't have the wiring diagrams on me, but I'm sure you'll find it.

Disconnect the harness, and jump the fuel pump with a fused jumper and then get someone to crank the car.

It should start up and run.

[poshatch]

win! ok i will do that as soon as i get a chance and i will let you know

so the cas only tells the ecu that the car is running and to turn on the fuel pump? i would have thought it would have told the ecu more info so it could adjust timing and stuff as well but as long as it starts running again at least thats a start!

[poshatch]

ok so i wired the fuel pump to a switch and tested it and heard the fuel pump engage

then tried cranking the car over and still nothing, its doing the same thing

i left it in accessory and went to the front and started twisting the distributor and i could hear the injector click every so often when i passed a certain point on it and did that a few times and it would be different injectors and then also the EGI relay (looking from the passenger side its [empty] [relay] [egi relay] etc...)

whatever that is it clicks also while i turn the distributor, ive unpluged the harness and cranked it and it dosnt register rpms so i know that info is getting to the ecu

any other suggestions?

[PapaSmurf2k3]

So does it start with the fuel pump switch?

I dunno man, if you're getting spark and fuel, it can really only be timing or compression. If I'm understanding correctly that it runs everywhere but idle, maybe there is a massive vacuum leak or not enough air coming in (IACV not working?).

[poshatch]

no there is no vacuum leak, it does not go from start into idle/running it will crank, catch and start to run then die

here is what i just did:

code 21 ignition signal

1. batter voltage 12.3v, ignition coil harness voltage 11.76v (ok?)
2.terminal b and terminal d and i (no continuity between b and d no go but b and c yes, continuity between b and i yes?)
3. continuity between terminal h and ground yes (ok)
4. pin 3 and terminal c no continuity but with 3 and d it does?
5. pin 1 and terminal g continuity yes (ok)
6. continuity of terminal a and b yes (ok
7. continuity of d and e @.7, yes continuity but at 1.2 (no go??)

failed tests 2 and 4 above? it gets continuity to another plug in there but not the correct one for some reason!

ignitor

1.continuity a to b yes (ok), a to c yes (ok), b to a no (ok), b to c yes (no go), c to a no (ok), c to b yes (no go)

failed continuity of b to c and c to b test above
resistor

suppose to be 2.2k resistance i got 2.19k (ok)

passes test

code 11 crank position sensor

1. battery 12.3v power at crank position sensor 0.0v (no go)

it says in the FSM to check power from that terminal b to the ECCS relay? i dont know how to do that i couldn't find that part of the FSM could somebody please help me here

2. terminal a continuity with ground yes (ok)
3. terminal c to pin 21 and 40 yes (ok)
4. terminal d to pin 22 and 30 yes (ok)
5. check crank position sensor (yes because i replaced it with a known working distributor)

there you have it i checked everything in the fsm and i see what is and isnt working properly but i dont know where to go from here.

[poshatch]

small update

for those who have this problem in the future

the fsm says that when you throw codes 11 and code 21 to check 11 first (i guess because it may be causing the second code)

looking at a diagram for the CPS

it should be this:

A - ground (black)
B - EFI harness (b/w) - engine room harness (b/w) - ECCS relay
C - pin 31/40
D - pin 30/22

which all corresponds to the FSM procedure for checking that

SO!

if terminal B then the problem could be:

wiring to connector from EFI harness, wiring to that plug form the ECCS, the ECCS relay, or power to that relay from the ecu (r/b pin 4) or fuse box (r)

[poshatch]

and now im getting 11.8v at the CPS now for some reason but i dont have enough power in the battery to crank enough it seems since it cranked then slowed

but the needle jumps when i go to start it now soo i guess its suddenly getting power to the cps to cause it to do that or something cause isnt that what reads rev's?

narrowing it down so got to charge the battery then see whats good.

[asoomal]

win! ok i will do that as soon as i get a chance and i will let you know

so the cas only tells the ecu that the car is running and to turn on the fuel pump? i would have thought it would have told the ecu more info so it could adjust timing and stuff as well but as long as it starts running again at least thats a start!

Well it tells it a lot more than just that, tells which piston is coming up, which one to fire, how many degrees, etc.

[asoomal]

This might be a far cry, but I had the exact same problem with my car in the past, exact same codes.

I added two fat, (2-4 gauge) wires from the intake manifold to the engine bay and one from the other side to the engine bay. It worked for me, don't ask how lol.

[poshatch]

This might be a far cry, but I had the exact same problem with my car in the past, exact same codes.

I added two fat, (2-4 gauge) wires from the intake manifold to the engine bay and one from the other side to the engine bay. It worked for me, don't ask how lol.

you know i tried that lol used 0 gauge wire i used for my battery relocation and put it on a bolt on the manifold and then to the strut tower and no difference.

i could always try it again...

this just dosnt make any sense

the pins the ecu reads is connected so the ecu is getting info, the ground is showing continuity

its NOW getting power

but still nothing i dont even get it!

[asoomal]

Are you sure that the distributor is properly installed?

TDC on cylinder one, rotor pointing at cylinder one?

Also, how are the wires set up? If there spark plug wires are not in the correct order on the distributor cap, it might throw that code. You will be getting spark, but at the wrong timing.

[poshatch]

yea its hard to check for spark without a partner but ill get one and check it

ill double check the timing again also

almost EVERY time i set the crank to TDC and put the rotor to 1 and try to start it it does noting then turn it to tdc again and open the crap and

MAGICALLY its off 180 degrees! i still cant understand that one! but yeah i know the correct firing order and the procedures for putting the distributor in but ill double check that again too

if it was off i dont know why it would start up then...but it dosnt hurt to double check

im looking at wiring diagrams from the ECCS to the rest of the car and it seems the power from the CAS branches off to connect to pin 47, pin 38, pin 109, and the maf!

i got an n60 in there maybe THAT is messing wit everything, however it was working perfectly fine before and i dont see why it would suddenly change...

then the ECCS as red wires going to pin 4 and then another wire that goes to pin 45 and then the power to all the injectors,

i know this is all interconnected and there is an issue SOMEWHERE in there lol

[asoomal]

f***, that is all.

So from what I've understood from this:

"almost EVERY time i set the crank to TDC and put the rotor to 1 and try to start it it does noting then turn it to tdc again and open the crap and

MAGICALLY its off 180 degrees! i still cant understand that one! but yeah i know the correct firing order and the procedures for putting the distributor in but ill double check that again too"

If you turned the crank to TDC again, and the distributor is 180 degrees off, seems like as if the gears on the distributor aren't really going with the timing chain, kinda make sense? O_o Sounds almost impossible, but it could happen.

Did you check for spark on all four plugs, making sure they fired 1-3-4-2. Best way to do this is by getting 4 spark plug testers, the one with the clamps, and clamp them to the valve cover and visually check them as you're cranking the engine.

According to the FSM, code 11 is only stored when the ECU does not pick up a 1 degree or a 90 degree signal from the CAS during the first few seconds of engine cranking.

It's like as if the distributor isn't really spinning with the engine, I'm kinda shooting in the dark since I'm out of ideas, but could you check under your valve cover and see if the timing chain is infact timed properly (make sure it hasn't skipped a tooth, lots of slack, etc) and that the distributor spins as you turn the crank.

Edit: That's the power supply wire. If you follow it from the fuse box, you can see it go to the F8,E9 harness and then goes to various sensors, such as CAS and MAF, ECCS relay, and then the ECU.

As long as you're getting battery voltage to that, then you're good with that part. Just to be sure, check terminal B on the MAF and you should be getting battery voltage.

[poshatch]

haha well i greatly appreciate all the help i am getting, i really didn't expect this much help on this matter

especially when it came to the tedious task of looking in the fsm and figuring out what it says

anyway im going to do the following when i get home after work or tomorrow

check for power at the pin at the CAS (cause it randomly appeared), then check for it at the ECCS and continuity from the plug to the CPS and also check for power at the maf.

check the distributor itself, not super sure on how to do that with the harness plugged in, it says to use 100mV to test between pin a and b and ground but the multimeter only has two leads...im going to put my old one back in once this is all over to see if thats busted for some reason

when i put it back in im going to be sure its going in correctly and the ignition is in the right order

if still nothing then start checking the ECCS to see if its triggering properly or if its malfunctioning

if none of that works then honestly F this. because i have to pull open and look at mechanical stuff and im praying that is all good

it sort of just happened out of nowhere when i put all the turbo stuff on and was diagnosing how it was running and leaks and stuff it just started happening randomly one day such a pain

anyway thanks for all the help ill get right on testing everything interconnected with the CPS as soon as i can.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Your dizzy is off 180 degrees at top dead center because you probably aren't on the same stroke. You can be TDC on compression or TDC on exhaust. You need to make sure you set the dizzy to #1 cylinder while at TDC on the compression stroke... ie, when none of the valves are open.

After that, you you can set up your wires in the correct order pretty easily... the distributor rotor only turns in one direction (I think its clockwise), so you set it up at 1, then put the #1 wire in that position,#3 wire in the 2nd position (counting clockwise), #4 wire in the following and so on.

[poshatch]

well the marks on the crank only correspond to TDC compression dosnt it?

i took a timing light to the car in the past and it could be timed normally so those marks can be 0 and 180 off???

[asoomal]

Take the valve covers off, it'll be much easier to see when number 1 is at TDC.

The intake and exhaust camshaft lobes on cylinder 1 will be pointing outwards when it reaches TDC on compression.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

well the marks on the crank only correspond to TDC compression dosnt it?

No.

[poshatch]

ah well thats where my confusion was so it must spin twice before the flash of the gun

no wonder haha ill pull the valve cover and do it that way

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I should correct myself. The answer is "no" in a 4 stroke engine, but "yes" in a 2 stroke engine.

[FlipCoupe]

use your hand over the spark plug hole or just put the plug wire back while setting it back to TDC, when you feel the compression or when the plug wire pops out you know you're on the compression stroke.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

^Good tip if you don't want to remove your valve cover to look at the valves/cams.

[asoomal]

So, exactly how have you been setting the timing?