KA24DE-T blew up / Need help

[truth211]

Ok this is my problem. I have turbocharged my 240sx and blew up the engine. Here is my set up.

*Greddy front mount intercooler*Greddy RS BOV*T-25 turbo*370cc SR20DET fuel injectors*REDLINE PERFORMANCE ECU *Stock MAF*3" exhaust*Stock fuel pump

As you can see it's not a wild set up but moderate for around 250HP. Well here is my question. After I put it all together And started the car it seemed fine. It would just not idle below 1100 RPM. However the car was perfectly timed at 15* BTC before the kit. So I know the timeing was not messed with. So the rpm's were a bit high so I was unable to retime it to make sure it was ok. It reved fine, sounded fine and in all manner seemed all around ok. I took her out for her first test drive. About 1 minute into the test drive I noticed some smoke coming from under the hood and she did not want to stay running. I popped the hood and there was oil all over the place.

It was coming from the valve cover. After I cleaned it all up I tried to start it up and noticed all the smoke and oil coming from the breather port of the valve cover. I ran a compression test on all 4 cylinders. 1= 165psi / 2= 45psi / 3= 15psi / 4= 60. Well I disassembled the engine and found out cylinders 2,3, and 4 were all broke by the oil journals in between the rings.

My question is this, If it was running fine before I drove it, what could have caused it to break 3 pistons? I am stumped? Does anyone know if that guy that tunes those redline ecu's does a good job? Any ideas what it might have been? I am lost. I am rebuilding another engine and do not want the same issue to occur again.

Also I would like to mention my set up includes EGR removal as well as charcoal canister, AIV hose connected to the cold pipe, WG connected to hot pipe and BOV connected to intake vac.

One more thing... The oil pressure turbo hose I connected directly from the oil sending unit (with a T-splitter). But the oil restricter peice would not fit on the T-25. It had a plate that would go where the oil return line goes. So I made 2 fittings to make it work on the correct side of the turbo (thanks HomeDepot) and just threw out that plate. The bolt pattern did not even match. Is it ok to have the feed line directly into the turbo and the return line straight to the oil pan?

370cc injectors should flow more then enough for this type of HP right? I have been told by many people that the 370cc injectors will be fine for running. It's a very mild turbo job. Maybe 7 psi boost at most. Nothing harsh at all. The engine internals should be able to handle 400HP + so 250HP to 260HP should be nothing for this engine. Thats where I am at...absolute confusion. Any ideas or suggestions would be great.

Any help anyone could give me would be great. Thanks


Modified by truth211 at 7:21 PM 3/28/2008

[r3v_v3ng3]

could be many things, probably overboost, detonation, etc. you should of hooked up a boost gauge and a wideband to read your a/f ratio. wouldn't trust a performance ecu because they are just guesstimating your tune.

[truth211]

I guess so. I figured the guy has a reputable name on eBay so I thought he would do a good job. Plus I did not figure on over boost b/c the WG is set at 7 psi max. So thinking on those terms with the 370cc injectors and the low boost level this should not have caused 3 pistons to break...or am I wrong in thinking that way? I have heard his ecu's have a tendency to rub rich but thats a good thing on a turbo. Better rich then lean...BOOOM! I am rebuilding it now and I am using stock internals again. I am lowering the compression a hair from 9.5:1 to 9.3:1. I will hook a boost gauge up and monitor it. I do not expect to see more then 7 psi boost. Also when you talk about a wideband...are you talking about the A/F ratio or something different? Whenever I have used an A/F gauge all it does is float back and forth from lean to rich. Am I looking for something different? It looks more like a light show to me.

[r3v_v3ng3]

yeah no matter what if he got a good rep, they give you more like a base map for your setup. if you do that then buy a wideband o2 sensor with a proper gauge and get a fuel controller (safc/vafc or some sort) and take it for a spin and read the a/f ratio and adjust where it is necessary.

wideband is a o2 sensor that can read wider range of a/f ratio and accurately monitors it and gives you #'s . the A/F ratio gauge your talking about is those cheap ones that just tap into your existing o2 wire, not accurate and you don't really know what the A/F ratio is just between red/green or whatever. wideband o2 sensor is pretty expensive but it's now getting more affordable. i think you can get a kit for like $300 on ebay with a gauge.

[r3v_v3ng3]

or find a local tuner and hook up the safc or a fuel controller and let someone tune it. that way you don't have to spend $300 on a wideband and maybe a $150 for him to tune it.

[stangalot]

definetly sounds like detonation.. running way to rich, any time you change injectors you need to custom tune. someone trusted and reputable. i did the same thing with my mustang, we all learn the hard way.

[truth211]

Ok. I have a guy local in town that does dino tuning. I have just bought a 1997 240sx ka24de engine with 58K on it. Got it for a steal. $400. Anyway I plan on doing the cam swap. 248 s13 exh for the intake (4 teeth CCw) and the 232 exhaust cam as the exhaust. 248/232 set up. I will have take the car to the guy for tuning. He should be able to tune the car perfectly right? Now that there is an eprom chip installed he should be able to make all the adjustments he needs to make right? Also can he find any problems while he is tuning it before it costs me another engine? I will search for a wideband.

[rico05]

Get a new fuel pump before you do anything. If you cracked a compression ring land, then it was detonation. What are you doing about fuel pressure?

[Ls1pwr]

buy my ka24de for $400 with 100,000 miles. and have more fun

[_dk]

is that redline ecu intended for a turbo application? (sorry if this is an ignorant question, but how many performance shops out there are called "redline", yanno?)

[_dk]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

ok i searched ebay myself and that's the only relevant result that "redline 240sx ecu" brought up-

if this is what you got, ditch that **** immediately. it looks like a piggyback with a hard-coded set of new maps, but it doesn't mention being intended for a turbo application and if it's not, i'm gonna bet a $20-spot that this is what blew your motor.

for a naturally-aspirated engine, advancing timing can be good as it'll let you reap the benefits of running higher-octane gas.

for forced induction, you need the opposite. advanced timing + boost = boom. go back to stock ECU and next time listen for detonation. it sounds kinda like... someone dropping ball bearings into a coffee can in the next room. if you hear it, get off the throttle -immediately-.

if you're only going to run 7psi to start, you may (key word, MAY) have room to squish that into the factory maps w/ your injector upgrade, but i would still back off the base timing at the very least (can you turn the distributor on a KA to do that? i forget, it's been years), and if you're going to plug something else into your wiring harness, it should be one of these:

http://www.drivewerks.com/cata...4.htm

my recommend would be to start out by pulling 1 degree of timing per pound of boost, and if you're feeling brave, back it off a little at a time from there.

but the key thing here is that i'm fairly certain, as mentioned above, that detonation due to over-advanced timing killed your motor, because it doesn't sound like you were driving it long enough for overheating to be the problem.

[ghx407]

Did you follow the FSM procedures to set your ignition timing? If you didn't, timing could be WAY more advanced than the 15 deg.BTDC reading you get...

[truth211]

Well I am not sure. As far as the ECU yes you are right. It's the same guy. I spoke to him several times over the phone and he explained several things to me. Mostly of what and how he programs the ecu. He had put a eeprom chip in it so ha could program it. He made everything to my specs (370cc injectors, stock MAF, removed speed limiter and upped the rev limiter, timed it for a turbo application and for 5 speed). He said he tried it in his car it it was fine. I have spoken to this guy and tried some trick questions and he was quick to catch it so I felt like he really did know what he was doing. I have not changed the fuel pump. It gave me no problem before. I was told the stock fuel pump could flow just fine up to about 275-300HP. I was not reaching anywhere close to that at the time. I think I was around 260HP. I know I was having a problem with the injectors at first. One was not working at all so just for giggles I replaced it with a stock 270 injector. When the engine blew the only cylinder that still had decent compression was the one with the stock injector. Maybe just a coincidence.

Ummm now as far as the ignition timing...I never heard any sound except for a knocking sound before POOF and smoke. No here is the wierd thing. When I parked it before the turbo kit it was fine. However after I put the kit together it would not idle down below 1100RPM's. It was set at 750 when it was parked. Also after I had it started I could rev it very high (around 6K RPM) and no engine noise at all. Ran very smooth. It just would not idle down all the way so I could not check the timing. However I had the timing set at 15* BTC when it was parked. When I would time it at 1100RPM's it was too far advanced I could not time it at the pin. I would need it to drop down to 750 RPM's. It was only when I drove it for about 2 miinutes when all this happened. I thought it was fine to drive. At the present time I am buying another 4 370cc injectors to replace the junk ones I got from that boola boogie, night me so from japano, slanted eyed, ebay, porch monkey. Sorry but this liar pissed me off when he sold me injectors that were not working properly. Now he's trying not to give me my money back. We'll see. Paypal will help me. But anyway the other three seemed to be working fine though. So this is why I am stumped.

Oh yeah I am also running the stock FPR. I was told it would be fine for my set up.

By the way to the guy who has the engine...where are you at? I would definately be very interested in it. Have you done a compression check on all 4 cylinders and if so what are they? Any leaks or smoking? Why are you getting rid of it?

Just for the sake of asking what are the FSM procedures? I was not aware there was any to make...Also what is this SAFC mean?

I know I have some pretty dumb questions that are probably no brainers but I figure I am the dumb one if I don't ask so please bear with me.

Keep the help coming! (I'm the blue guy; without a clue)

[ghx407]

Just for the sake of asking what are the FSM procedures? I was not aware there was any to make...Also what is this SAFC mean?

Fully warm up the engine. Shut engine off. Disconnect the TPS harness connector. It's located on the passenger's side of the engine just above the throttle assembly.

Attach timing light. Start engine and set timing to 20 degrees BTDC. Check the idle speed. It should read 650 RPM; If not, adjust the idle screw until you get 650 RPM. The idle screw is located on the passenger's side of the engine near the firewall below the intake manifold. Stop the engine. Reconnect the TPS harness connector. Start engine. The idle speed should now be 700 RPM.

SAFC = Super Air Flow Controller by Apex'i. It's a piggyback computer that you can use to trim your fuel map by modifying the MAF readings that reach the ECU.

[_dk]

Well I am not sure. As far as the ECU yes you are right. It's the same guy. I spoke to him several times over the phone and he explained several things to me. Mostly of what and how he programs the ecu. He had put a eeprom chip in it so ha could program it. He made everything to my specs (370cc injectors, stock MAF, removed speed limiter and upped the rev limiter, timed it for a turbo application and for 5 speed). He said he tried it in his car it it was fine. I have spoken to this guy and tried some trick questions and he was quick to catch it so I felt like he really did know what he was doing.

well no offense, but when i read claims of +55hp&tq and 20 more mpg from an ECU change... i smell snake oil. also, all that remapping for a custom setup is a lot of work to be doing for $25... just sayin'.

i'm gonna stick with my recommend: ditch the chip, set your timing at the low end of the factory recommended range, and try again. walbro 255 fuel pump might not be a bad idea either. the most important part is knowing detonation when you hear it, though.

my $.02, good luck.

[480sx]

You bought an ecu designed to run N/A and you tried to boost with it..

So your saying the run that k/oed your engine, you were running three 370cc injectors and one 270(stock) injector? Dudddeeeeee.....

Also, your saying that before turbo your running at 15 degrees of timing, why? Your supposed to be at 20 for a stocker. So, for your boosted run you were running 15, and you still blew(hard). OWCH

You need to spend a lot of time researching. You really shouldnt boost anymore untill you figure out what your doing or your gona keep blowing engines. Heres a few threads that should kick you off in the right direction.

This one first,zerothread/226410Then this one zerothread/99647

EDIT - You can know the sounds of predetonation well, but one good case of it and your engines toast. Theres no ammount of hearing thats going to get your foot off the throttle fast enough to stop engine dammage once a serious case of pre det starts. The KA is extremely sensitive to detonation, the ring lands of manyyy a blown ka with no auidible knock detected can atest to that.
Modified by 480sx at 6:17 PM 4/1/2008

[truth211]

No. I sent out my ecu and had it reprogrammed. He changed out the chip and put a programmable one in. Then he tuned it. He tuned it for a turbo ecu. The one I sent to him was one from a stock ecu but he chipped it and reprogrammed it for a turbo set up. It cost me $305 plus $8 shipping. As far as the timing goes the dealership specs called for the engine to be set at 15* BTC. I even checked all through NICO just to be on the safe side and 90% of everyone said to set it 15* on a N/A set up. Turbo I would need to go 20*. However b/c I could not check the timing due to 1100RPM idle I am unsure what it was. Guessing still at 15*.

Now I just bought another set of 370cc injectors and should be receiving them soon. I have spoken to John who will do the dino tuning for me so we will see shortly how it goes. Also if anyone has a good compression low milage ka24de from like a 91-93 please let me know. I am interested in buying it.

[crashcourse]

After you unhook your tps throttle position sensor it will take the computer out of the timing equation.

Then you set it at 20* then adjust idle to around 600 when you plug the tps back in your timing should be at 15* and your idle should be right where you want it.

[sickzofive]

throw away that ecu and get a new one by enthalpy you'll thank yourself later on.. i would never buy an ecu from ebay.. the ECU is your brain and basically you let some numbnuts play with your ECU that you have no idea who he is nor any REAL reviews from someone on this site or any others.. your playing with fire bro.. and you got burned.. if it turns out the ecu is bad i'd call a lawyer

[truth211]

Read the add by that guy enthalpy...He is the numbnuts. He makes some really dumb statements in his auction. I am not neccesarily the most genius mechanic there is but he makes staements that just are not true. I would not trust him at all. Heres one. Checking the fuel pressure...hmmm last time I checked you need the car to do that. Plus it's pointless if it was possible at all. Too many variations. Thats what an aftermarket FPR is for. Second is the keigm is absolutely right VTC point only is on the s14 models not the s13. Besides I have had keigm talk to me about many things and I fell safe with this guy. Anyway please don't dog the computer. We have esablished the fact as soon as I get the car back together I am taking it to the local dino and have it fine tuned. What I will do is ask the guy in his opinion what he thinks and adjustments he would make if any. I think I kight be picking up another engine for it this weekend. However I was considering a 2jzgte swap. I have everything out of the car already so what do I have to lose at this point...ya know?

What do you all think of the 2jzgte swap? What about the rb25det? Just those two? Pro's and cons with installations and engine performance in this car. Thats it. Those are the only two I am interested in. I heard the rb25det was a fairly easy swap with bolt on parts readily available but have not heard a whole lot about the 2jzgte swap.

Oh yeah and if it turns out to be the ecu, I am going to shove it so far up his A** his mamma's boobs will bounce and say "what the F***K was that?". Thats right before I I have paypal refund my money and I drag the guy to court for blowing up my engine.
Modified by truth211 at 4:31 PM 4/2/2008

[480sx]

First off, the guy on ebay is NOT enthalpy. Hes a guy (emance i think?) who uses enthalpys name to sell his ecu's. Enthalpy himself it the man at bench tuning and is a name synonymous with reliability and safety in the Ka-T world.

Theres a few things that could have caused your engine to blow. Running a 270cc injector in an engine meant for 370's is probably the number one reason. However, you had a drastic blow, so your tune could be sht too.

On a sidenote, the Ebay guy (emance) has proven himself repeatedly on Nico and on Ka-t. No ones complained so far, and i know of at least 5 people who have his tune. Your guy is a shade tree guy, im almost certain that ecu will blow your second motor.

[truth211]

Well what I am doing is this...I will get the other engine together and everything putback together. I am going to pay the extra $175 and have it dino tuned. Should there be a problem with the ecu programming, Khiem will be receiving a letter from my attorney from an estimate for the money put into the car as well as time and labor plus the cost of the ecu. If he does not show up I will simply ask the judge to attatch a garnishment of his wages. I hope he has alot of money because the court hearing will be held here in MD so he'll have to fly. HA HA HA>LOL. Hey thanks guys. I will let you all know what happens in the next few days. I am picking up an engine that has 73K miles on it for $400. Awesome deal. I have to drive 6 hours to get it though

It'll be worth it aftr I get everything back together and get my pearl back on the road.

[Vegascorbin]

As far as the timing goes the dealership specs called for the engine to be set at 15* BTC. I even checked all through NICO just to be on the safe side and 90% of everyone said to set it 15* on a N/A set up. Turbo I would need to go 20*.

Are you running the SOHC (KA24E) or the DOHC (KA24DE)? As far as I can tell the SOHC is set to 15 deg. and the DOHC is set to 20 deg. Both set with the TPS unplugged. NOTE this is the STOCK setting.

[rogoman]

One more thing... The oil pressure turbo hose I connected directly from the oil sending unit (with a T-splitter). But the oil restricter peice would not fit on the T-25. It had a plate that would go where the oil return line goes. So I made 2 fittings to make it work on the correct side of the turbo (thanks HomeDepot) and just threw out that plate. The bolt pattern did not even match. Is it ok to have the feed line directly into the turbo and the return line straight to the oil pan?

An oil restrictor is most likely needed! Without the restrictor, the turbo seals can get blown out; if that happens, good-bye oil pressure and the motor goes to heaven. Also running without a restrictor may channel too much oil away from the motor thereby possibly starving the rod/main bearings. This probably what caused your motor failure.

You did not run any type of fuel management on your setup. Not a good idea. You can run something like an Apexi SAFC-II with a stock ECU with good results.

[480sx]

If your turbo seals blew, you would still have oil pressure although it might drop a tad bit. You would also notice your seals blowing wayyy before you did any dammage to your engine.

He also had three blown cylinders caused by pre det, not oil starvation.

He was running a tuned ecu, so he did have some fuel management(although crappy).

[truth211]

To answer the question above I am running a DOHC. I just got the new engine today. Looks great. It's from a 1996 with 73K miles on it. I am going to start the process this week. I need to know a few things though. First I know I need to swap the distributors but will the s13 work in an s14 block? Also Since I have a head from a 1991 with 248 cams; this engine with the 232 cams; when I install the 248 exhaust cam from the 1991 head as an intake cam I have been told I can rotate it CCW by 4 teeth. Will this be adequate timing or should I really just invest in the crower cams? Let me know. Also one more thing. I have the IACV hose connected to the cold pipe. Is there any other place I could route it to? I was correct in placement of the IACV hose right?

[rogoman]

The S13 and S14 blocks are basically the same so yes the S13 distributor will work OK. Why not just use the 91 head with the cams as they are or else install the 91 cams on your 96 head in their stock location. IMO I wouldn't install the exh cam as an intake; the HP increase is minor and the timing is easy to screw up. You'll get all the HP you need from turbo charging.

The IACV hose should be connected to the hot pipe just in front of the throttle body.

[truth211]

Yeah. Thats pretty much the way I felt too but I wanted to know some opinions on that. I got the engine and it's actually pretty nice. I painted the block black and painted the front and the head sliver metalflake. I am sanding down the upper intake offer the s14 and spraying it charcoal grey metalflake. Just painted the valve cover electric pearl blue last night.

I will be using the lower from the s13. I do have a question though. Since I am removing the 2 solenoids from the s13 lower manifold and all the vacuum lines I need to know is there going to be any problems leaving the two connectors for those solenoids hanging? See the s14 upper intake does not have that idle rod piece in it or the flaps. It should flow much better. However All these vacuum lines are coming off. There are two I am not quite certain where they should go. First one is the vacuum line coming off the throttle body. Where should that go, now that it is not going to the solenoids? And there is a nipple off the lower intake. I was going to use that for the blow off valve. Is this correct? Will the car still idle fairly decent this way now that all that stuff is gone? I am asking b/c the S14 does not have these things on them. The S14's have different junk and more vacuum lines. Is there a way to have the car still idle decent wothout all that crap on it? All the EGR system has been removed. That idle mechenizm is gone. S14 upper intake eliminates this. But again my biggest concern are the 2 solenoids on the back of the engine. I am just trying to remove as much of this junk as possible. It's not really neccessary.

I was also doing some research on the s13 and s14. Engines have the same amount of horsepower. But my question is this...If thats so how can they use 2 different cam set up's? Are the compressions different? Well thats just some Q's I just wanted to know for personal reasons.

Oh yeah and get this. That Khiem guy wants me to send him the ECU back by friday so he can check it out and make a video of showing me how it will work on his car. Does this guy really think I am that dumb? Yeah thats going to happen. Take my proof of poor ECU tuning (if thats what it is) and send it back??? Naaaaaahhhhh. I don't think so. I have about a week left before I am ready to start the car again. As soon as I have the car dino'd If it needs any modification then I am going to sue the pants off this dude.

[rogoman]

The only vacuum hoses you need to be concerned with is for the IACV and air regulator solenoid. All other vacuum connections should be plugged with caps. The two solenoids on the back of the motor are used on the S13 system for the EGR and SCV (swirl valves); you can remove them.

The S14 cams were redesigned to lower emissions, so they lowered the durations and they may have bumped up the valve opening rates on them. The compression remained the same. When they dyno'd the S14 motor, it may have been at a different RPM for them to come up with the same HP.

[truth211]

Ok. I removed all the vacuum hoses and i am left with this. A nipple on the back of the lower intake manifold and one on the inside front. I am using the inside front for the BOV and I took the one on the back part of the manifold and connected it to the nipple under the throttle body. Now the air regulator solenoid what is that and where is it? I removed the two solenoids behind the engine and all other vacuum lines. The only ones left are the ones comming off the AICV and thats connected to this device under the intake and I have that connected to the cold pipe. The other is the bottom of the throttle body and I have that connected to the back of the lower intake manifold. The last one is on the front, inside of the lower intake manifold and I have that hooked to the BOV. This should be correct right? If not please help. Also lastly are you saying the s14 has less HP or more then the s13? Boy this gets confusing.

I forgot to ask...If this set up is wrong then do I need to cap the throttle body and the back of the manifold? I am using the s14 upper and s13 lower manifold. I will have some pictures up too. One last thing. Under the manifolds there are 4 hoses (1 off each runner) and then comes together to a long pipe. Then there is a long L shaped hose that goes over to a connector and connects to the timing cover (oil pump as Nissan calls it) Is there a way to remove this or is it a vital piece of the engine.