KA-T vs. SR Swap

[cmkelly]

Greetings gang,

After searching I've found the following info but I wanted this group's input as well. I know the list below is simplistic but contains the main points.

KA-T Pros: stock engine, "fairly" easy to bolt on a turbo and reroute things, lots of parts available and people have done this many times before with good results.

Cons: engine not really designed for this purpose, may need to replace major engine components, reliability may be an issue.

SR Pros: engines readily available and designed for this purpose, many others have done this successfully, 205 stock hp out of the box, many mods avaiable.

Cons: can be expensive for clip plus installation, parts not as available as the KA in the US, is it still street legal - emmisions? don't know.

RB20 or RB25: also an option but more modification required - mounts, tach, etc. Not as common may = not as many parts or expertise available.

Am I missing anything else major?

My goal is not to drift, race or burn tires to impress chicks. Just to get that kick in the pants feeling a turbo or more hp can provide. This is not my daily driver but is during all the top down months.

I'm having Phantasm Motor Sports in Raleigh price out an SR20DET and 5-speed swap.

[triaddave]

When you get your price, and make your decision let us know. I'm just down the road from you and I'm considering this as well. Raleigh would be an easy "do" for me.

Thanks,triaddave

[Repo Man]

Cheap, fast, reliable. Pick two.

None of the above is a "cheap" alternative. Of course, it's all relative to your income and/or what you have alotted for mods. I picked up an SR for $1500 because I would have spent that or close just in rebuilding my SOHC to prep it for boost. It's all about the deals you can strike.

[Eikon]

How much is enough horsepower for your car?

Cost to install and get running is one thing.. but you also need to factor in the cost to modify to get to the hp you desire.

Here's some price guesses..

Cost to acquire and install engine:KA - T (200 - 200hp $1000 (est?) or so for the turbo and other needed parts. SR20 (210hp) - $1800 plus shipping. RB20 (210 hp) - $1500 with R32 xmember or custom mounts plus shipping.

Must buys for all three:Turbo catback exhaust - $300FMIC setup - $300BOV - $100Other random stuff - $200?

So.. if your only looking for low 200 range hp.. Your cheapest, easiest route should be the KA-T.

Looking for more than 210hp.. now you have some more complication decision making..

If 250hp is your goal.. i'd contend that RB20 is the cheapest way to get there.. as you only need a RB25 turbo (cheap) to get there. But 250hp maxes out the RB20 injectors.. so anything more than that and you need new injectors, engine mgmt, MAF, bigger turbo, etc..

I'm not the best person to give you SR advice.. so I'd check out the SR forums.

I will say this.. What's impressive about the SR is how light it is. It's a pretty easy install, makes nice hp, and sure fits nicely and easily.

But the RB20 is a much smoother, better sounding, more solid feeling motor. On the other hand.. heavy.

I wouldn't worry so much about RB parts being tough to find.. it's getting a lot easier, and we have a TON of knowledge on NICO's RB forum.

Anyhow.. one other thing.. if you go KA-T.. you should also factor in the cost of 5 spd conversion.. I'd very strongly recommend doing that.

Anyhow.. keep the questions coming if you want.. I hate this discussion topic in the general forum, and the 240 forum.. but here in the 'vert forum with my buddies.. I'm more than happy to engage and share my opinions.

[DirftKing102]

Greetings gang,

After searching I've found the following info but I wanted this group's input as well. I know the list below is simplistic but contains the main points.

KA-T Pros: stock engine, "fairly" easy to bolt on a turbo and reroute things, lots of parts available and people have done this many times before with good results.

Cons: engine not really designed for this purpose, may need to replace major engine components, reliability may be an issue.

SR Pros: engines readily available and designed for this purpose, many others have done this successfully, 205 stock hp out of the box, many mods avaiable.

Cons: can be expensive for clip plus installation, parts not as available as the KA in the US, is it still street legal - emmisions? don't know.

RB20 or RB25: also an option but more modification required - mounts, tach, etc. Not as common may = not as many parts or expertise available.

Am I missing anything else major?

My goal is not to drift, race or burn tires to impress chicks. Just to get that kick in the pants feeling a turbo or more hp can provide. This is not my daily driver but is during all the top down months.

I'm having Phantasm Motor Sports in Raleigh price out an SR20DET and 5-speed swap.

From what i have researched it is street legal in many states except for california. Unless i am wrong about that and the rules have changed. I would personally go with the SR-20DET if you are lookiung for higher horsepower. You can get that sucker to be around 450-500hp if you put on the right parts and such. Also if you have a 240 vert you would have to do an Auto-Manual swap which would cost more money.

Its up to you though on where you want to go. If you think the engine is not built for a turbo and would need a lot of extra parts then i would not do a KA-T. I would replace the whole engine with an SR-20DET and do an auto-manual swap for more horsepower. But thats just me...It should cost you around $3000 once you have all the parts and such. But if you want to make it go faster and get up to 450hp then you need more parts which means more money then $3000.

Its totally up to you and use the search button to see which swap is right for you.

[cmkelly]

That's the great thing about this forum, the years of modding and access to those who have been there.

I did use the SEARCH button, hense my initial comment; "After searching...". I wanted anicdotal information and personal opinion. Dexter replied to an eariler post regarding the "Holy Grail" of power that was very inciteful.

What started this was wanting a 5-speed swap and then talking to Phantasm about what made sense. If they come back with ~$5000 then I'll just start aquiring parts for the transmission swap. If it's in the $3k range then I might be tempted to do the whole thing.

205-245 hp is what I'm looking for. My Pathfinder has 245hp and that is very peppy. That's all I'm looking for.

Thanks for the info.

[ishkabibble]

Another thing to factor in is the powerband of the two engines. From what I've seen, the KA-T looks like it would suit the vert a little better. Look up dyno charts of engines that are spec'ed close to what you would be building to get an idea.

Also keep in mind whether or not you need to pass state emissions - might be harder to do with an SR20DET (I don't know, just guessing since it's a JDM engine).

[DeXteR]

i don't know why, but i've got this love for the ka... i guess i don't want to be another cookie-cutter sr/s13 guy... i don't know. well... now that i think of it, it's probably because i have so many parts laying around that i'd prefer to just use what i've got rather than accumulate another pile of parts that would just take up more space in my shop...

i'm also not a fan of just dropping a motor into a car without rebuilding it first. call me paranoid, but i'd rather have the piece of mind. whether it's your old ka or an sr or rb that you just got from japan, you never know when it's going to give up. sure, that jdm swap has 40-60k and is running fine... but what's the probability that it was beaten on and is probably going to be due for major maintanence soon anyway? who knows how long that motor has been sitting for.

on top of that, why on earth would you just put a stock swapped motor into your car? rebuild that bad boy and uprade stuff!

that's just how i feel about it. when you think about it this way, it kind of equalizes your options a lot more on an economical standpoint. so then it just boils down to whatever you want.

[cmkelly]

I completely agree; the KA I currently have is a known commodity. I've put the last 21,000 miles on it (110,000 total) and pretty much know its strengths and weaknesses. Still I had to ask.

My new thinking is to start searching/exploring the world of the KA-T and see what that's going to cost me and what I can do myself. My knowledge is limited but it sounds like it's going to cost roughly the same either way. This whole thing started out as a simple 5-speed swap and a new exhaust from Greg and it's now turned into, "I wonder what a few more dollars would do...."

Thanks everybody for their input. More is welcome. And please, please tell me use the search feature a few more times DriftKing

[afracer]

Well, fans of the RB and KA have let their voices be heard, so now you get it from an SR fan

If you've got the money and you want more power and are willing to learn a new engine, I would invest in the SR swap. The car is already set up for it with the exception of a few fairly minor things (little bit of wiring and hoses, otherwise pretty much a drop in). It's smaller displacement-wise, but it's just such a better designed and running engine, plus you'll get better highway mileage as well! Just because it seems like everyone else is doing it doesn't mean it's a bad swap, it means there's probably something to it! Just as many people are going KA-T these days! I've been very impressed with all my SR's, they're great engines and even if they're coming from Japan with 50,000+ miles, they're usually still always in great shape. The biggest problem you might run into is one with either a blown stock headgasket (it's non-metal) or broken rocker arms (from overrevving). Most 180's and Silvias in Japan aren't ratted on too hard actually, they take WAY better care of their cars than most Americans do. A typical modded S13 on mainland would usually be running a stock or slightly modded ECU, stock turbo, and aftermarket exhaust and intake. I wouldn't worry about getting one in bad shape, although it does happen every now and then I have still seen way more jacked up/blown KA's than I have SR's. If you have the money, your best bet is to buy an entire front clip, that way you can verify the mileage of the car, you'll get some of the parts you need for the 5 speed swap (clutch pedal, master cylinder) and get a lot of extra goodies to make the swap easier and upgrade some other things too (brakes, sway bar, etc). I have three SR's now, four over the last 4 years....I beat them hard, and the only problem I've ever had is blowing a headgasket recently due to too much detonation of my own darn fault (too much boost, not enough fuel of course).

Any inline 6 (RB or JZ) is cool, if you've got lots of time and money, but its a lot more fabrication/customizing and extra money than just dropping in a modded crossmember. Think about an entirely new driveshaft, lots of wiring, bolt on parts not fitting right due to the engine being in the wrong car, parts availability if you're in the middle of nowhere USA and something breaks, etc. A lot to worry about IMHO and once again...expensive! But if you went that route I'd definitely go 2JZ instead so you can have a non-interference motor and great parts/tuning availability!

If you're very confident in your knowledge of the KA, then stick with that since it's what you already know and are familiar/comfortable with. You don't have to shell out extra swap money towards anything except the 5 speed swap, and you can get parts for it anywhere. Too many times I've driven across country in my projects scared as hell that I'ma break somewhere! Decent aftermarket parts are becoming much more available for it due to the popularity of the KA-T's now too. Tear it down and rebuild it the right way so it can handle boost reliably and it'll be just fine for you to throw a turbo kit on and be happy. Then you also don't have to ever worry about emissions or legality either....I don't have to worry about that part of it which is another reason I went and stayed SR myself. So you've heard it from an SR fan...bang for the buck it's probably a better deal for you to stick with the KA.

[DeXteR]

lol we need that emoticaon with the "old-school" red-flashing "search" button from back in the day...

anyways, i'd love to make a huge post about what i would suggest doing, but i've all ready spent a bunch of time on nico when i should be working...

just keep doing your homework. i would strongly suggest getting some forged pistons with a lower compression ratio to make tuning your ka-t a lot easier. i've been -ing 240 people a lot recently about this because they want to build these "junkyard" turbo ka's and push 8psi without a tune and then wonder why it blows up when they spike to 15psi...

definitely set a goal, make a list, and form a budget. select a turbo, figure out supporting mods, and go from there. should be a lot of fun.

[DeXteR]

afracer posted while i was typing... i'm starting to like that guy... i need to find his intro thread and say hello.

[afracer]

LOL good luck finding my intro thread, it's buried from like 2 years ago! I just haven't posted in a while because I've been so busy elsewhere (marriage, work, baby on the way, deployed, etc). There's gotten to be so many new guys on the site it started to get more of a pain to explain things and then get called out because they think they know better so I kinda got worn out on it and stopped dropping in as much...I guess you could say I reverted to being a lurker anyways, I should update my info...got two 240's now, convertible for me and hatchback for my wife!

[TurboChargedSE-R]

On a cost-per-HP basis, the KA-T option is the best way to go. Money rules us all, and has to be a (prominent) factor in what to do with your car these days.

KA-T: 1. Already in the car.2. Many turbo bits out there for it, more on the way. This engine loves an old-skool T3.3. Tune-up parts can be had at AutoZone. 4. 250hp is easily attained with minimal fuss. The hardest thing you'll do is remove your oil pan and add a oil drain flange to it.

SR20DET: 1. $1500 minimum cost just to get the engine.2. Is a "zingy" engine, loves to rev. 3. Can make big power but *only* if you know what you are doing and your ECU/tuning is spot-on. Otherwise, just like any engine out there, it will break. Dramatically. 4. It's a used engine, and comes with the risk of being worn out/abused.5. 250hp is attainable right out of the box.

I'm a diehard FWD SR20 guy, and love these engines. However, when it came down to my S13 'vert, after weighing all the options, KA-T was the best solution for me.

As long as your stock KA is in good shape, you can and will make your 250hp easily and affordably. The car will be fun to drive.

Which is what we all want.

[madcowvert]

Any inline 6 (RB or JZ) is cool, if you've got lots of time and money, but its a lot more fabrication/customizing and extra money than just dropping in a modded crossmember. Think about an entirely new driveshaft, lots of wiring, bolt on parts not fitting right due to the engine being in the wrong car, parts availability if you're in the middle of nowhere USA and something breaks, etc. A lot to worry about IMHO and once again...expensive! But if you went that route I'd definitely go 2JZ instead so you can have a non-interference motor and great parts/tuning availability!

Lots of time and money? All RB/2J swaps have mount kits that make it so easy a cave man could do it. So there is no fabricating involved most mount kits come with the drive shaft. doing the harness for a RB is like doing an sr one most rb people do it there self or send it out just like sr owners. As far as parts go they are easy to find ebay services everywhere last time i checked.

I will agree 2j's are a way better swap parts are all local and you can get alot more power out of it stock. if i could do it over agian i think i would have done a 2jz or a Ls1