KA-T Timming Concerns

[UltraRed2$0sx]

My current setup is: Stock KA (92k) T3t4, Tial 38mm WG FMIC, HKS BOV Stock ECU, SAFCII, 480cc's, Z32 MAF MSD BTM 13psi

I was thinking about timing and came to this conclusion with my setup. We know that KA NA base timing is 20degs and 28deg at WOT. So for 13psi i should be retarding about 6-7degs. Recently i checked my ECU timing with an MDM Techdom and it read 16degs at WOT. So that means the ECU is retarding enough timing on its own. We seem to think its because of my EGR been blocked, but it has not been proven yet. So if my ECU is reading 16degs at WOT, i wouldn't have to retard anymore timing at the distributor like I am doing now. Currently at the dist i am at 14-15degs.

When i was at the dyno i made a poor 190rwhp at 12psi retarding .5/psi on the BTM. This was when i was AUTO. When we set the BTM to 0 and no other adjustment the car instantly made 233. So from those 6degs i made 43rwhp. Which is OK for an automatic i guess.... Recently i was thinking about it and i remember that when i set my base timing at the distributor i set it to the second mark from the right which means is at 15degs. I made the mistake and misread the teeth marks.

Going back to gaining 43rwhp on 6degs which means 7rwhp/1degs. If i set my base timing at 20degs the car should make another (5deg*7) 35rwhp. So 233+35=268rwhp, this sounds more in the ballpark of what people get or should get at 12psi. The car is now a 5sp (very happy about that, ) so in top of that i can calculate about an 8% drive train loss when it was auto. So 268*8%=21. This means that the car should be making about 289. These are just my calculation, don't know if they make sense to anyone. So now I'm thinking about setting my base timing back to 20degs knowing that the ECU is reading 16Deg at WOT. Anyone have any input on this? This might sound confusing, and sorry in advance if it doesn't make sense. What do you guys think? Is it worth the trouble or just leave it at 15degs?

Thanx PauL

[Structure240sx]

its not much trouble to turn the dist. and set the base timing right. just get your *** down here and lets set this thing right.

your numbers make perfect sense to me.

once again u better be happy about that 5spd swap. seriously i would do it all over again, might go smoother the second time.

ill talk to u on AIM

[WDRacing]

My personal opinion on making hp goes like this, you need to pick one or the other, increase boost or timing.

Lets say your motor is limited by fuel rather then timing, you can only run said amount of boost no matter what your timing is set at. So figure out your max boost for your fuel injector duty cycle, then increase your timing until your motor starts to indicate knock, then retard 2 degree's. Unless you have a standalone and can gen up your own timing maps based on boost and load your stuck with the base timing advance.

Does that make sense to anyone besides me?

WD

[S14tat]

damn paul. when you set that timing right. go race with my friend with the STi again for a rematch. hehe

[MarkEmark]

My current setup is: Stock KA (92k) T3t4, Tial 38mm WG FMIC, HKS BOV Stock ECU, SAFCII, 480cc's, Z32 MAF MSD BTM 13psi

I was thinking about timing and came to this conclusion with my setup. We know that KA NA base timing is 20degs and 28deg at WOT. So for 13psi i should be retarding about 6-7degs. Recently i checked my ECU timing with an MDM Techdom and it read 16degs at WOT. So that means the ECU is retarding enough timing on its own. We seem to think its because of my EGR been blocked, but it has not been proven yet. So if my ECU is reading 16degs at WOT, i wouldn't have to retard anymore timing at the distributor like I am doing now. Currently at the dist i am at 14-15degs.

When i was at the dyno i made a poor 190rwhp at 12psi retarding .5/psi on the BTM. This was when i was AUTO. When we set the BTM to 0 and no other adjustment the car instantly made 233. So from those 6degs i made 43rwhp. Which is OK for an automatic i guess.... Recently i was thinking about it and i remember that when i set my base timing at the distributor i set it to the second mark from the right which means is at 15degs. I made the mistake and misread the teeth marks.

Going back to gaining 43rwhp on 6degs which means 7rwhp/1degs. If i set my base timing at 20degs the car should make another (5deg*7) 35rwhp. So 233+35=268rwhp, this sounds more in the ballpark of what people get or should get at 12psi. The car is now a 5sp (very happy about that, ) so in top of that i can calculate about an 8% drive train loss when it was auto. So 268*8%=21. This means that the car should be making about 289. These are just my calculation, don't know if they make sense to anyone. So now I'm thinking about setting my base timing back to 20degs knowing that the ECU is reading 16Deg at WOT. Anyone have any input on this? This might sound confusing, and sorry in advance if it doesn't make sense. What do you guys think? Is it worth the trouble or just leave it at 15degs?

Thanx PauL

I'm confused... You said in your post you were running 15 deg BTDC at the distributor...when you recorded that the timing was retarded to 16 deg BTDC under WOT, was the timing set at 20 deg BTDC at the distributor, with the MSD BTM set at 0 deg. retard per psi of boost? If ithe destributor wasn't at 20 deg BTDC, and it was set at 15 deg BTDC, wouldn't that mean that the ECU is not retarding the timing at all under WOT (actually increasing it 1 deg), but is staying at a relative constant 16 deg BTDC and therefore you don't actually need the MSD BTM to retard the timing?

[klattr1]

just put it at 20 deg. base timing and then recheck the total timing under WOT again with the MDM Techtom because after that the map could be in a different spot due to different load after changes.

[UltraRed2$0sx]

once again u better be happy about that 5spd swap. seriously i would do it all over again, might go smoother the second time.

ill talk to u on AIM

hahaha.....Dont worry Ant, im more than happy!! We are always eagered to do something until we find ourselves stuck for hours on one thing, then i wanna shoot myself. But now everything is great.

My personal opinion on making hp goes like this, you need to pick one or the other, increase boost or timing.

Lets say your motor is limited by fuel rather then timing, you can only run said amount of boost no matter what your timing is set at. So figure out your max boost for your fuel injector duty cycle, then increase your timing until your motor starts to indicate knock, then retard 2 degree's. Unless you have a standalone and can gen up your own timing maps based on boost and load your stuck with the base timing advance.Does that make sense to anyone besides me?WD

I think it makes pefect sense. The thing is that im almost at the edge of boosting 15psi. 15psi is the max people boost the KA "safely." Thats why im trying to squeezz as much power out of ignition without turning to boost for more power. Sounds good to adjust base timming close to 20degs or turn it back down 2deg for a safety measure.

damn paul. when you set that timing right. go race with my friend with the STi again for a rematch. hehe

Lol, if he only beat me by 1 car im sure itll be a different story when i adjust timming and shift FASTERRRR.....lol I suck. Its only been a month or so, ill get better!

I'm confused... You said in your post you were running 15 deg BTDC at the distributor...when you recorded that the timing was retarded to 16 deg BTDC under WOT, was the timing set at 20 deg BTDC at the distributor, with the MSD BTM set at 0 deg. retard per psi of boost? If ithe destributor wasn't at 20 deg BTDC, and it was set at 15 deg BTDC, wouldn't that mean that the ECU is not retarding the timing at all under WOT (actually increasing it 1 deg), but is staying at a relative constant 16 deg BTDC and therefore you don't actually need the MSD BTM to retard the timing?

It sounds very confusing, even to me sometimes when i go back and re-read what i posted, lolWhen we checked my ECU timing with techtom it read 16deg at WOT. I always had my dist. at 15deg thinking that it was at 20degs. So now i want to turn it up to 20deg (base timing) cause the ECU is retarding enough on its own (16degs at WOT). I dont need the MSD BTM, but i bought it and installed thinking i needed it. That was before i had the opportunity to check my ECU total timing with the Techtom.I dont know if that kinda clears things up?

just put it at 20 deg. base timing and then recheck the total timing under WOT again with the MDM Techtom because after that the map could be in a different spot due to different load after changes.

Yeah im gonna do that tomorrow! If i hear or feel anything weird or wrong ill just adjust timming through the BTM, so i guess the BTM will serve a purpose after all, lol

Thanx everyone for your input, really appreciate it!!! I hope everything works out.

PauL

[MarkEmark]

But, if you were reading 16 deg at WOT with your distributor set at 15 deg, that doesn't mean the ECU is going to make timing at 16 deg BTDC with the base timing at 20 deg...perhaps it will be linear relation and it will never advance past 20 deg at WOT. But anyway, keep us updated.

EDIT--Here's the timing numbers I got using a Blitz R-VIT...Setup is 9 psi, JWT ECU, 370 cc injectors, stock MAFS.

http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=79664