Justified or Murder. The death of bin laden.

[IBCoupe]

...but what's Zimbabwe gonna do if we cut their aid?

The government of Zimbabwe? Maybe not too much. But I'm pretty sure there were these nineteen guys about ten years ago who decided to respond forcefully to our foreign policy decisions.

[stebo0728]

Ya you might be right, but then again I dont think that is a perfect explanation for why we were attacked either

[IBCoupe]

Not foreign aid, but it was definitely in response to our foreign policy. Doesn't make it right or our foreign policy wrong, but them's the facts.

[stebo0728]

Sure foreign policy played a role, but its not completely to blame for the attack. Were our foreign policy any different, would the attacks have not occurred? Afterall these were RADICALS we're talking about.

And isnt that kind of like when a girl is raped, saying "well she shouldnt have been wearing that short skirt, and dancing that funky dance, she asked for it"

[IBCoupe]

We're not to blame for the violent acts of madmen. But they did have reasons. Maybe really crappy reasons, or maybe our foreign policy decisions are entirely justified in spite of the madmen. I wasn't intending to say anything different.

[stebo0728]

Ok fair enough, I wanted to be sure you werent advocating that we structure our foreign policy based on what zealots may or may not do.

[IBCoupe]

I am advocating that we do that in part. If we had a way of knowing that our support of Israel and our military presence in Saudi Arabia would lead to madmen killing 3000 of our citizens, might you have advocated that we alter at least one of those policies?

Maybe you wouldn't, but should that be part of the cost-benefit analysis? It seems criminal to suggest that it shouldn't be.

[HashiriyaS14]

I understand what you're saying there, and it makes sense, but what's Zimbabwe gonna do if we cut their aid? Are we really bribing them, or are we actually involved in some humanitarian interests there? Now when you're talking about Pakistan or the like, the bribe card makes more sense, but I wouldnt say ALL foreign aid is self serving.

I would argue that every dime is self serving, actually.

Nations are less likely to harbor terrorists or engage in other behavior contrary to US interests if we can threaten the withholding of aid. If we are sending no aid, we have less leverage. We spend very little on this but it generates enormous goodwill for the United States.

If we're not spending money to build schools and hospitals in some of these countries, Hamas is, or someone else.

We want to be seen as the helping hand, not the oppressor. Additionally, it's cheaper to do a little nation building and bring stability to these places than it is to combat the inevitable violent product of instability.

[IBCoupe]

^ That. If I were King of the world for a day, I'd have the Israeli military roll on into Gaza and build as many new houses and as many new schools as they could.

[stebo0728]

I am advocating that we do that in part. If we had a way of knowing that our support of Israel and our military presence in Saudi Arabia would lead to madmen killing 3000 of our citizens, might you have advocated that we alter at least one of those policies?

Maybe you wouldn't, but should that be part of the cost-benefit analysis? It seems criminal to suggest that it shouldn't be.

I dunno, I'm not hardline either way on that, but I tend to fall toward the side that would say: Dont alter our policies based on external values, if people want to kill us, dont buy them off, find them and stop them.

[AppleBonker]

Stop them? At a much higher cost. Plus, there will always be people against us. I don't think we can stop/kill them all. It's kinda like the war on drugs. It's a war that isn't winnable using force, IMO.

[Mooniac]

I appreciate your respect, and I should be well read. I'm a 2L at UConn, and I just took my ConLaw final on Monday night.
...
I don't want to challenge the legality of it, but I think we do ourselves a disservice if we plug our ears and close our eyes to the fact that we might have just broken the supreme law of the land in order to kill somebody we don't like.

If we did, I'm okay with it, but we need to tread lightly here.[/quote]

"Atta Boy!!" ...but you must be smarter than I am if you can read this stuff while studying for finals.

Now, send me the cites to those cases so I can pull 'em up on WestLaw!

[stebo0728]

Just watch The West Wing, its got everything you need to know ...

[IBCoupe]

^ What he said.

No, but really, let me see what I actually pointed to. It's hard to remember everything I write...

U.S. v. Curtiss Wright, 299 U.S. 304 (1936)
- Executive has broad authority in matters of foreign affairs.

Prize Cases, 67 U.S. 635 (1863)
- Silence on Congress' part was read to mean that President Lincoln didn't need an explicit declaration of war to attack Confederate ships.

Ex Parte Milligan, 71 U.S. 2 (1866)
- Executive couldn't try a civilian not engaged in combat by military tribunal

Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U.S. 557 (2006)
- Military commissions at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba violate Article III of the Geneva Conventions.

I also pointed to the Geneva Conventions (which, arguably, would not protect Osama bin Laden, as an unlawful combatant) and the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (which, arguably, would protect him from denial of due process as a "person").

[Mooniac]

Young Jefferson,
Thanks! Old lawyers will always need young ones to find authority to back their opinions up...I like your thinking. You're probably familiar with the fact that Lawrence Tribe said President Obama was one of the smartest students he'd ever taught. That fact only impresses those of us who have read Tribe which quickly narrows to total ConLaw geekdom like a radical funnel! I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[IBCoupe]

I look forward to writing them!

[Mooniac]

Just saw your profile. I'm a GD vet myself. Between '85 and 89, I built the High Energy Laser Lab (H.E.L.L.) as a Laser Lab Tech in Fort Worth. Burned holes in stuff for a while under Ronnie Raygun's Star Wars budget until the Wall fell then went back to school. Lived off the taxpayers then grew a conscience...

[heliochrome85]

Ronnie Raygun

THANK YOU for spelling it correctly. Most people don't know how to spell his name properly ...

[IBCoupe]

Just saw your profile. I'm a GD vet myself. Between '85 and 89, I built the High Energy Laser Lab (H.E.L.L.) as a Laser Lab Tech in Fort Worth. Burned holes in stuff for a while under Ronnie Raygun's Star Wars budget until the Wall fell then went back to school. Lived off the taxpayers then grew a conscience...

Haha, well, I don't plan to stay in the Defense field for much longer, unless they offer me a well-paying job after law school. I was aiming for IP, but now I find Labor/Employment law to be much more interesting - almost as interesting as Conlaw. Might end up going that way.

[szh]

Let's not lose sight that there were more than just 3,000 victims at the hand of Al Qaeda.

Yes, indeed! The estimated number killed in attacks in Pakistan alone is almost 10 times higher than that - indeed, nearly 3000 Pakistan army soldiers, so far, have died in the clashes with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

These deaths and the high numbers hardly ever get mentioned in the media here ...

Let's keep something else in perspective. Assuming that everyone in Pakistan is not doing what can to eliminate the terrorists and their attacks (that is occurring all the time within its borders, by the Taliban and Al-Qaeda) is an insult to those who are trying their best. Limited resources do lead to limited outcomes - regardless of the best of intentions. Those countries are not equipped with the best and modern American arsenals of fire-power and intelligence-gathering capabilities.

And, yet, I am also sure that their are some total idiots (imho) who support Al-Qaeda there, including in the government and among the people. Are you all really surprised by that? You should not be - look at the people and citizens and officials in any government (including the US) for simple and trivial examples of people taking both sides of issues ... strongly!

As always, I want to caution against reading too much one-sided media reports ... it is way too easy to pontificate from far away and not know the stresses that other countries (including Pakistan) are going through.

There had been a LOT of attacks from the formation of the group to 2001.

And after 2001 as well ... most of the deaths have occurred post 9/11.

Z