Just to make you feel better

[Q45tech]

http://www.blueovalnews.com/20...7.htmh ... 20...3.htm

"Internal Ford Motor Company documents supplied to BlueOvalNews show that Ford may have decided to eliminate the painting process to cut costs. In fact, a partial scan of a internal Ford document shows a cost savings of $1.11 per vehicle when the seat frames are left unpainted. In what may be a total backfire to the cost cutters at Ford, dealers must now be compensated anywhere from 1.9 to 5.1 hours to take apart the seats, replace the rusted seat frames and reassemble the seats.

A Ford source told BlueOvalNews that aggressive cost cutting may eventually produce results that impact quality. "It's not good for a customer to spend $40-50K for a 2003 Lincoln only to find the seats are already rusting. It's a dilemma that leaves customers wondering what else they can expect."

http://warnerrobert.com/cgi-bi...b.cgi

[[Zero-S]]

Its sad when people cut so many corners to cheap out on a product...

[Q45tech]

"Keep in mind as service manager I am management and I should be against unionization, but I am not against it because I see what is happening to technicians and no one is stopping it. When you are an independent business, as dealers are, you don’t want anyone to tell you how to operate it, so from a dealer’s perspective I can see that unionization is the last thing you want. On the other hand, the technicians have no representation and no voice and in most dealerships are expendable. Ford wants the techs to be fully certified and trained and held up on a pedestal, yet Ford turns right around and doesn’t pay them for the work that they perform. Ford says pay is a dealership issue. It is to some extent, but when Ford dictates the times for the repairs how does this become a dealership issue?How will a union change the SLTS situation?With SLTS, if Ford is going to continue forcing those times, nothing is going to change as far as helping the technicians. Every dealership is going to respond differently. It then would be up to each dealership group to bargain for what it wants. Many techs don’t even have insurance. Techs would elect their own steward and own pay scale and will have to bargain for what they want. A union with technicians won’t affect Ford at all, but if you get enough techs unionized and get enough of this going on, that may force dealers to stand up and deal with Ford to straighten this out. If they don’t, dealers will be the ones taking the hit because a lot of them will start paying techs some benefits and raising pay scales, so their cost of doing business will be greater. The first thing a dealer does, if Ford throws them a mickey, is look at their books to calculate what the time decrease means to the dealership per year and then raise the door rate. They cover their loss but don’t give the technicians a pay increase. Without a union, the techs in turn have no way to control their own loss. Just about everything else has been tried – use this system, turn in these dealer requests for reviews and this and that – but none of this stuff works. The PTS – Professional Technicians Society – is nothing but show ponies. Ford handpicks the people it wants to show up at these meetings. Ford says it takes what it has been given under advisement, but it never seems to move on any of these suggestions or concerns. Ford’s response is the issues are a dealership issue or something they won’t talk about. Why aren’t dealer principals more concerned?They just don’t have the losses the tech does; I’m not sure dealers are going to pay any attention at all to any of this until all the master techs and techs are gone. Regardless of what Ford says, techs are leaving the business…as we speak. Ford is holding us accountable to Toyota standards. Our current warranty repair rate is $600 per unit; Toyota is $300. Ford is holding dealers accountable for that and putting dealers on warranty audits, but these warranty costs have nothing to do with repairs – it has to do with the quality of the vehicles. So then Ford says the quality of its vehicles is up and warranty repairs are down 20 percent, that’s not the entire story. Any dealer can go to his financial statements that show repairs, Warranty Customer Pay Internal. Go back to ‘99 and come forward and pick any months you want and what dealers will see is that while Ford is stating warranty repairs are down the dealer’s warranty RO per month he is writing is the same number or more this month than he was the same month three years ago. The only declining figure the dealer will find is the amount paid per repair order. Ford is saying repairs are down because quality is better; at the dealership level we’re writing the same or more ROs telling us quality is at least the same if not worse; the only thing different is we have lost 30-40 percent of what Ford would have paid us four years ago.There are roughly 40,000 Ford technicians nationwide; the biggest percentage of technicians leaving the business is master techs. Ford says it is the unskilled techs at the bottom that are leaving; once again, it’s exactly the opposite because every year these master technicians are seeing their pay decline. So far this year alone 300 to 500 master techs have left the business to open their own businesses, go to work for marinas or towns, you name it… anything to get away from Ford.The horses are already out of the barn. The techs are saying “My dealer charges $100 and he pays me $20. I’m losing X on warranty.” They’re mad about it. The dealer signed a franchise agreement; he is bound to work for whatever Ford pays him. The technicians have not signed an agreement like that. When Ford starts backing down repair times, it costs the tech money when the job can’t be done in the time given. If Ford says the job should take an hour and it takes two, the technician just lost an hour of his day, which is whatever his rate is.A few dealers are vocal about this, but only a handful of them are willing to do something. Ford is doing what it wants and nobody is trying to stop them. The guys at the bottom, who happen to be the technicians, have decided they have had enough of this and if takes a union, it takes a union. The dealers aren’t protecting their technicians.Doesn’t Ford have a valid point that with new diagnostic tools repair times should decrease?That’s exactly what they say. They did 13 specific time studies at the request of the dealership technicians, what we called the Hot 13; out of 13 operations that Ford had to study because of the heat we put on them, eight of the 13 operations increased in time. The newest thing they’ve done is what they call “streamlined operations.” It works like this. Suppose a car comes in with a check engine light on. You retrieve a code 401 out of the computer. For this operation now, Ford has thrown everything out the window, diagnostic times and all, and put the repair details on a bulletin. This bulletin says if you retrieve this code, 401, you replace the DPFE, which controls the EGR flow sensor. That is OK if they want to do it that way. But they dropped the time for the job to .3 from what it was, which was .8. They tell us to change that module in .3, which tells us to take all of our training and diagnostic manuals and leave them in our tool boxes and don’t look at it; just put this part on. That is fine and dandy, but I had a tech come to me and say this particular car with this code was now in for the third time with the same problem; should he put in another sensor or should he repair the broken vacuum line.Which was the real cause of the problem.Exactly. The operation would have been 12650D, which would be to test the system. That would have paid .2; DX1 which was .1 to reset the sensor; plus .2 to replace the part. Now Ford is only paying .3 to computer test and shut the check engine light off; Ford is not now paying technicians to put on the part. I hear from the “inside” there are a lot more of these “streamlined operations” coming. So we have big trouble brewing and more coming and it’s not getting any better. Is this only a Ford problem?The thing that is scary is a Ford memo states that all American manufacturers are looking at how each other is doing business…and they’re modeling off Ford. The DaimlerChrysler techs are in the first phase of where we were in ‘99 and the same thing is happening to them and they are asking about unionization. Curiously, General Motors doesn’t seem to be affected at this time. If Ford would listen and work with us and pay us for what we do, which they should…this issue would be over. We don’t work for Ford but Ford dictates what it pays us for repairs, yet they won’t pay us for diagnostic time and road test time, even though its own materials tells us to do these things. Here’s another example: Ford used to pay us .1 per recall claim to cover clerical time. They took that away. Based on Ford’s average number of recalls per year that cut amounted to an $80 million savings for Ford. The dealers were livid about this for about two days. In my dealership, we figured that cut amounted to $8,000 a year, which is not a lot of money but nothing to sneeze at either. Ford also decided to cut all operations on prep by .1. At Ford’s current rate of vehicle production that cut in tech time saved them $27 million a year. Ford says it’s the service advisor’s responsibility to test drive vehicles. But if the service advisor is not a master certified technician he’s not qualified, by Ford’s own standards, to make that diagnosis. That’s goofy. If every service advisor was a master certified technician that policy would be fine, but I would suggest that the service advisor isn’t getting paid for that diagnosis either. Technicians don’t know what Ford wants; all we know is Ford doesn’t want to pay us for what we do, at any level of repair.Look at the numbers: For the first quarter of 2003, Ford boasted earnings of $896 million. Ford’s second quarter earnings dropped to $417 million. Even with all the cuts Ford made at the division level Ford was already in a decline because it’s running out of dealer money which it was using to show its profit. If I can take away six minutes of time on every new car that is prepped, who is going to miss that; but nationwide that reduction is $30 million right to the bottom line.What do dealers need to know?The unions will pull this off. The union is going to get Ford out of your service department before it’s too late. While a lot of dealers are sort of in the loop about this, most are willing to sit back and let their techs do the fighting for them, which keeps them out of harm’s way with Ford. Unfortunately, their indifference may lead to something they really don’t want – unionized technicians.If you wish to discuss this article with other dealers, or with the author, please go to the “Discussion Forums” at http://www.DEALER-magazine.com and enter the “Dealer Undercover” forum.

http://www.dealer-magazine.com...d=388http://www.flatratetech.com/

[Q45tech]

http://v8sho.com/SHO/Worthless...s.htm

[Q45tech]

Sound familiar:Bad SHO: Performance Taurus owners accuse Ford of foul play

By JOHN D. STOLLHere’s another engine problem: Media reports and online complaints at http://www.v8sho.com document more than 200 cases of camshaft failures in Ford Taurus SHO 3.4-liter V8 engines, but owners of the 1996-99 high-performance models say they’re not getting anywhere in their dispute with Ford Motor Co. Website member Larry Eck says as many as 700 current or former SHO owners log on, some complaining of repair quotes as high as $21,000.

“Many of us, including myself, had a travesty happen,” says owner Jim Merriman. The travesty for Merriman: cam sprocket slippage, which disrupted valve timing, causing valves to collide with pistons, causing significant damage. Merriman said the damage resulted in a $6,000 bill to rebuild one side of his Yamaha-made V8. Of the nearly 20,000 third-generation SHOs made, V8sho.com contributors believe between 5 and 10 percent are cam sprocket failure victims.

Ford’s response, via press release: It’s aware of the problem, but believes “the condition is not widespread

[PalmerWMD]

Ford should pay its workers less, so they can pay techs more.

I talked to a guy the other day (nice guy actuallly) works at Ford, says he works only a third of the time, rest of the time he waits for next unit to come.They even put out cable TV for him.

Its a real simple screwing act he does, when he does "work".

He makes approx $60,000 per year, as a recent HS grad.UAW is legalized extortion.

techs which are SO MUCH MORE as automotive professionals, struggle to make a living, while mouth breathing clowns make 50-80,000 .

this is, whats keeping the big three back.

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

Real sad situation with the V8 SHO guys.

Fred..

[Q451990]

This goes back a lot further than the late 1990s. I had a 90 Mercury Cougar that I tried to get warranty service for back in 1993. Engine used a quart of oil every 1600 miles, transmission clunked (both before and 300mi after the rebuild at 50K), differential clunked, valve covers leaked, t-stat gasket leaked, doors sagged every month or two (loosen hinge bolts, jack up door, torque down) sunroof whistled, body trim falling off, etc. The car had a 60K powertrain warranty and all of this was "normal wear" even though the warranty clearly covered the mechanical issues. The response from the dealership was "Ford won't pay us for this, so we can't do it - you'll have to take it up directly with them."

After parking the car for six months and threatening every lawsuit I could think of to everyone I could find, and getting a continual runaround with the corporate folks, I finally dumped the car and bought a 91 Maxima. Our family had always driven imports up to that point, and thought we'd try something made in America. Never again. I've always said that the only reason I'd buy Detroit metal again is if I needed a big truck or SUV, but now the Titan and FX56 are here so even that is out the window!

Heath

[maxnix]

Real sad situation with the V8 SHO guys. - Fred..

No better than with the V6 SHO. The pressed-on camshaft drive sprockets have to be pinned to the camshaft to prevent failure in the rotational plane. Ford acknowledges no reponsibility. It's only a few hundred or thousand out of millions to them, so statistically insignificant, unless you are a SHO owner.

[maxnix]

From: http://v8sho.com/SHO/ShouldIBuyAUsedV8SHO.htm

"There may be a link between sustained high speeds and transmission failure. SHO owners and their cars relish very high speeds. Looking back at cases of ATX failure, many owners admit failure sustained high speeds just prior to failure. Either way an auxiliary ATF cooler and regular ATX maintenance is emphatically recommended for "sporting" use.

The SHO has an expensive and exotic ZF power steering. Ford has no scheduled PM interval for the power steering but we have noticed the fluid has a life of 30,000 - 50,000 miles. Keep it further and you risk replacing the ZF rack and pinion, and power steering pump. This is a very inexpensive item to take care of.

SHOs are tuned for high quality "Z" rated tires. Many used SHOs lack quality tires and owners may wonder about the "magic" other SHO owners speed about in glowing terms.

In my case the OE struts lasted 60,000 miles, it is a revelation what fresh struts will do since worn out strut are sloppy and vague but otherwise asymptomatic."

There are universal truths.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

Discover the power of the button!

[Wildcat]

I have experience in dealing with FORD. I am a former Industrial Engineer/Six Sigma Blackbelt/Cost Cutting guru for the foundry that makes all the cylinder heads for the SHO/Cobra/otherwise known as the ####-2C5E cylinder head/5.4 and we make about 50% of all the 4.6 liter heads.

They simply do not design for quality or lean manufacturing. For instance the boss of purchasing procurement (lean mfg. guy) comes in the plant and starts saying why do you do this, why that, why, why, why? I simply answered him with this statement. "We provide you with the lowest cost/highest quality cylinder head in the world to you with the design you have given us. If you want we would rather design the cylinder head for you and save money for both of us." He had no reply. Simply stated Ford will not invest money to design for quality. They would rather rely on the scales of economy and come in the door and demand things. In your instance they put pressure on the dealerships/service departments. Its a lot cheaper for them to do it that way b/c there is no upfront investment. Ford wants something for nothing. Where as Toyota redesigns there vehicles every 3-5 years, so they can improve quality while giving the market what it wants and work with their suppliers/dealers so it is a win win situation. Toyota designs things with robustness in mind and then has a production system that cuts costs. Ford mostly b/c of their unions want suppliers to lower costs and so their production line workers can get paid higher wages for doing the same amount of work without improvement. A guy that worked at Toyota (mgt) told me that they had a dealer call and tell him that a ladie's high heeled shoe kept getting stuck b/w the pedal and the floor(Lexus vehicle) a week later an engineer showed up to analyze the situation and within a week they made a running production change to improve the vehicle for that purpose alone. What you have is a difference in philosophy. As you can see Toyota's philospophy is winning b/c they have knocked Daimler Chrysler out of the BIG 3. In addition, who would you rather work for? Somebody that demands cost reduction all the time or somebody that wants to help you with cost reductin so that it benefits both parties. I AM NOW OFFICIALY OFF MY SOAPBOX!

[VimyJ]

$40k a year for assembly line mouth breathers would be more than just compensation. Think of what Ford could accomplish if they channeled $20/employee back into engineering and quality control.

A big part of the problem is the nature of our capitalist economy in the US. Publicly traded companies only see as far as the next quarterly report.

[Q451990]

A big part of the problem is the nature of our capitalist economy in the US. Publicly traded companies only see as far as the next quarterly report.

The only possible problem I could see with capitalism in this instance is that it may not work as quickly as some would like.

As the "big 3" begin to loose more market share because even the most un-observant US drivers notice the quality flaws and move to other brands, the market will dictate that they improve quality or perish. Can you imagine the crap we'd be driving if we didn't have imports? The system works...

Heath

[maxnix]

Europeans and the Japanese have a longer term outlook that allows them to succeed quite well in a capitalist economy. Hence, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan thrive while DC, Ford and GM decline because they cannot see beyond the next quarter's stock price for the executive bonus. If we were not in a capitalist economy, we would all be drivng Zils and Trabants.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

Discover the power of the button!

[VimyJ]

Capitalism does indeed work. Look at Toyota as proof. However, accountants are becoming the bane of US society. Look to Enron as proof.

The quartely report has become the standard to measure a company's performance. This report is the realm of the accountant.

Look at Vegas. When the town went "legit" the accountants were brought in to maximize profits. Gone are the days of the free shows and cut rate rooms. It's now "Disneyland for drunks".Vegas is turning a profit but they do it the sneaky way by chiseling you at every step. At least in the old days they made money the honest way (LOL) and strove to keep people coming back by thinking long term on an idividual experience basis. The quarterly report now rules the roost in the show rooms.

Non US capitalist companies definitely think longer term than American. Just look at the products produced. A Japanese car with 100k miles that has been reasonably maintained is not even halfway through its life span. A domestic car is just about done for unless the owner paid close attention to everything at 100k.

These superior products might harm the non-American companies in the short term because their turnover rate is lower but, in the long term, their customer base grows and grows. Capitalism at work. Which view is better? Well, Toyota is now in the Big 3 and I venture to say that none in this forum are all that interested in purchasing a domestic car.

[AZhitman]

Great writeups all.

Unfortunate that media hype and advertising supplant truth and product knowledge. The sheep continue to flock to the Blue Oval and are summarily led to slaughter, with the majority not even knowing they're someone's next meal.

Mike is indeed correct about one thing: The American public is woefully uninformed (read = stupid) on many things - Automobiles being one of them.

p.s. Unions suck. Always have, always will. $60K a year for 20 hours a week of light labor involving minor physical dexterity? Sign me up.

No, wait. Forget that. I'd hate a job where I couldn't use my intellect and creativity.

[VimyJ]

p.s. Unions suck. Always have, always will. $60K a year for 20 hours a week of light labor involving minor physical dexterity? Sign me up.

The initial article mentioned a union as the eventual savior of the domestic Auto industry. Labor is a commodity and those that comprise that commodity have a right to organize. The article implied that a professional association of auto techs would put pressure on the manufacturer to improve intial and long term product quality by making it prohibitive to add to the bottom line by gutting service proceedures. The way around reducing waranty work is to improve quality.

The union movement greatly improved conditions for the working man. However, since labor is a commodity, it also is a direct participant in the capitalist system. It should behave in a responsible and long term manner as well. Enron underlines certain failures in a capitalist company. The UAW underscores short sighted behavior on the part of organized labor.

Unions don't suck but they are subject to the same abuses as every other human enterprise. That's life in the big city.

[Q451990]

In my Ford bashing I forgot one major thing!! Has anyone noticed that their advertising campaigns always admit that they've had problems? In the 80's it was "Have you driven a Ford lately" (translated "We know our cars sucked but we're better this time, we promise...")

...and now some guy with a big hat and a guitar singing "Look again, look again..." about the new F-150. (translated "We know we sucked, but this one's better this time, we promise...") How many times do they think we'll fall for that one? Hey Charlie Brown, come kick this football...

I think they're absolutely running scared from the Titan and Pathfinder Armada release! For the most part they've ceded the car market for the bigger-is-better SUV and Truck market, and now Nissan is coming after that too!

Heath

[Q451990]

On the union thing... how hard is it to quit and go work on a different vehicle? With an economy now cooking at 7.2% growth in the 3rd quarter that rising tide will make things much more competitive for skilled labor.

If you're talanted and truely understand the mechanical principles at work, it's not that hard to take your knowledge base and tweak it for a different model. Ford's dealerships will treat their employees better when they have to.

Heath

[Jesda]

Blaming capitalism for ****ty cars? No, blame poor value judgements. Ford values immediate cost-cutting without looking at the long term results of such decisions.

Fortunately, such shortsightedness has its own consequences, as Ford and GM are learning/have learned from plummeting sales and market share.

Consumers vote with their pockets, and they have chosen Nissan, Honda, and Toyota.

Toyota = Smart CapitalistFord = Stupid Capitalist

Ford makes bad decisions. Toyota makes good decisions. Toyota's decisions lead to better products, resulting eventually in higher sales and profits. Ford's decisions lead to poorly built products, which then leads to poor reliability, poor corporate reputation, poor word of mouth, and eventually poor sales and financial devastation.

Ford can blame the economy all day, but when you add it all up, Toyota simply makes better cars.

Capitalism works, clearly proven by Ford's gushing financial wounds. And the best part? In a capitalist world you can choose a better product.

Economics 101.

-Jesda

[Jberger]

I'll skip the union rant, but here's my Ford contribution.

I travel quite a bit, most of my rental cars are from Hertz or Enterprise, so I end up in quite a few ford fleet vehicles. Most of the cars I end up in are virtually new, from 300 miles on up.

Ford's are the only ones who seem engineered with the wind noise built in. Seriously, every time I get in one, I double and triple check the windows as they always sound like the rear windows are open.

Had a chance to spend some time in the new F150, after I dropped my Q off at T3 for some regular maintence w

ork. Here's a truck Ford spent over a BILLION dollars designing. What's the first thing I notice after driving off, the sunvisors don't completely cover the side windows. I'm not talking about just a small uncovered area, with the sun rising on the drivers side, I could NOT see due to the glare and light from the side windows.Unbelievable, over a billion dollars spent and they never bothered to try moving the sunvisors to see if they work

100 years of FORD, but I doubt they make it another 15 years.

[Q451990]

100 years of FORD, but I doubt they make it another 15 years.

One could only hope. I hate to say that about any American corporation, but they're one we could do without...

Heath

[AZhitman]

Like I said before (and Vimy's said it more times than me):

Sheep.

[VimyJ]

One could only hope. I hate to say that about any American corporation, but they're one we could do without...

Heath

Ford owns Jaguar, Volvo and a good chunk of Mazda. What a world.

[Jesda]

Mazda and Aston Martin are the only light in the Ford portfolio, because the engineers get a great deal of freedom. Mazda, after Ford jumped in and took control, cancelled its luxury brand (Amati), dropped all of its luxury models, created new vehicles on Ford platforms, and milked the parts bin to afford to create fantastic products like the RX-8 and upcoming Miata Coupe. Rover meanwhile sits near the bottom of dependability surveys. Volvo makes a quiet comeback with some interesting designs.

F-150s seem to have a problem with rusted out oil pans after only a few years. Rather ridiculous flaw for something built "Ford tough." The Focus, for the first 3 years, had a record number of recalls. And the Taurus is one of the quietest midsize sedans I've ever been in, sans the Camry. However, a friend of mine who owns a 99 Taurus with 50k is having issues with the dealer, trying to fix a recurring knock-ping problem.

Ford, in its current iteration, would not sadden me if it disappeared

And Chrysler, the company that Lee Iacocca turned around and made an American business miracle out of, more or less died after the merger. Its just a low-end DaimlerBenz division.

The Big Three: GM, Ford, Toyota

-Jesda

[Wildcat]

It is that simple......PHILOSOPHY. I would love to buy an American vehicle......oh wait my wife's Toyota Camry was built in Georgetown , KY. Sorry 'bout that.

Seriously, I agree with the person who stated you are only as good as your next quarterly report. When are we as American going to figure out it is a marathon and not a sprint. Apathy/accountabliity is the reason Ford can't get things done right. If you don't hit your number for that quarter your fired. They just keep on going with that endless cycle of hire & fire and they have the mentality that 3 lefts make a right. If I ever purchase an Maerican vehilce it would have to be GM truck. They are the only ones making strides to improve. For instance, how many of you knew that the GM NUMMI plant in California about went under until GM swallowed their pride and let Toyota take over and introduce the Toyota Production System. It is time for FORD to Cowboy Up and get it going!

[natsoundup]

My wife's 1998 Ford Expedition is the only new car we have ever owned. I can't say a thing bad about it... only one intermittent problem--- a windshield wiper issue.

Nearing 100k miles.... I guess the second 100k will be the real teller.

I wish my 90 Infiniti had the first 100 trouble free. Actually the last 60 of the 160k have been more trouble free than the first.

Go figure. Like Q45tech and other say....change those fluids regularly.

[VimyJ]

"And Chrysler"...

Chrysler used to be known as well enginerd cars. My local techs despise them as being very cheaply built starting around the time of Iacocca's "K Car".