So on my way to church and back tonight I only upset the car while downshifting once!
It was the best feeling ever to be fairly consistant while going from fifth to second with out the nose of the car bouncing around even just a little.
I never imagined how big of a jump there was in cornering ability when going from almost smooth to completely smooth! It's so much easier to feel the tires break away! It was also a whole lot easier to enter corners while braking! So amazing!
I'm probably not conveying how excited I am very well at all here. But, man, it was awsome!
But don't get me wrong I still have a long ways to go and I really think there may be a better line than the one I've been driving on
Here is a link to a map with the road I was driving. http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/673056/3It's a wide single lane road out in the middle of no where near my house. I normally only meet one or two cars on it at night in an entire month.
Oh yeah... I'm talking grip driving not drifting.
Jesus
Re: (2BN_S13)
When you down shift and have the revs matched up well the car doesn't shudder or jerk around. When the revs are matched going into a corner the front to rear balance of the car isn't disturbed and is easy to modulate with only the brakes and throttle. This is often reffered to as part of being smooth.
I think of it as 3 variables. The drivetrain (only the transmission, and clutch, and flywheel in this situation), the brakes, and the gas all work together to manipulate the cars balance when going in a straight line. If one variable can be taken out then only the control being operated by the driver is effecting the balance and the car is much easier to control during corner entry.
I think of it as 3 variables. The drivetrain (only the transmission, and clutch, and flywheel in this situation), the brakes, and the gas all work together to manipulate the cars balance when going in a straight line. If one variable can be taken out then only the control being operated by the driver is effecting the balance and the car is much easier to control during corner entry.
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azncorruptedo17
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Re: (2BN_S13)
werd2BN_S13 wrote:Yeah, i know it just didnt make sense to me reading it somehow. Nevermind, congrats on learning Revmatching. Its good for all types of racing. You can also use your right foot for heel-toe brake/throttle control to increase control and add speed.
Heel-toe is actually what I do... I just used rev matching for the sake of clarity.
Yeah, it's just really something when everything happens perfectly. It's been about 6 months of missing it by a couple of hundred rpms or having to blip twice. Tonight I only watched the tach on exit and just used some peripheral vision on entry. The way it's supposed to be.
Yeah, it's just really something when everything happens perfectly. It's been about 6 months of missing it by a couple of hundred rpms or having to blip twice. Tonight I only watched the tach on exit and just used some peripheral vision on entry. The way it's supposed to be.
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ILikeMy240sx
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Re: (Arrow)
yea heel-toe is the best driving tecnique even in daily driving. ive been doing it every day for over a year and once you do it that often, you can master it.just keep practicing
I do it all the time.. even in my winter banger mazda 626 haha
I dont use my heel and toe though... I sorta split my foot over the two pedals and use the right side or left side of my foot to accel or brake. I dont really like the motion of twisting your foot and using your heel on the throttle-- it doesnt feel right to me..
I dont use my heel and toe though... I sorta split my foot over the two pedals and use the right side or left side of my foot to accel or brake. I dont really like the motion of twisting your foot and using your heel on the throttle-- it doesnt feel right to me..
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HashiriyaS14
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Some people say that heel-and-toe isn't applicable for daily driving, but I have to disagree.
Take a rainy night on the highway, lots of traffic, close together, but moving fast. Someone stops way up ahead, cars in front of you slam on their brakes.
If I just stand on the brake pedal, I'm dead, I have no ABS, I need to drop 3 gears and brake with the engine. I can't do this quickly or smoothly enough without heel-and-toe. I think it's honestly saved me a bunch of times.
Oh, and smoothness is everything, smoothness is divinity, smoothness is speed. For every little extra bit of smooth, your tires can be applied that much harder to what they're supposed to be doing.
Dave: Remind me to watch you downshift the next time I'm in your car.
Take a rainy night on the highway, lots of traffic, close together, but moving fast. Someone stops way up ahead, cars in front of you slam on their brakes.
If I just stand on the brake pedal, I'm dead, I have no ABS, I need to drop 3 gears and brake with the engine. I can't do this quickly or smoothly enough without heel-and-toe. I think it's honestly saved me a bunch of times.
Oh, and smoothness is everything, smoothness is divinity, smoothness is speed. For every little extra bit of smooth, your tires can be applied that much harder to what they're supposed to be doing.
Dave: Remind me to watch you downshift the next time I'm in your car.
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Nissan-S14
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Re: (2BN_S13)
LOL I'm with you!2BN_S13 wrote:Maybe Im the only one who doesnt get it.
What are you talking about? Smoothness? HUH? wtf...
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HashiriyaS14
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Smoothness, in the racing sense, generally boils down to what your tires are doing.
A given set of tires mounted on a car of a given weight are capable of doing only so much. This limit can be split between several tasks, such as accelerating, turning, and braking (i.e. turning and accelerating simultaneously).
The objective should always be to smoothly transition between these tasks, thus allowing your tires to do whatever they are doing to their maximum capacity.
Example: Let's say that I'm coming into a tight left-hander, braking super late. I will be braking and downshifting at the same time (hence heel-and-toe). At least in my car (no ABS), I have to carefully modulate the brake pedal to brake at the limit but yet still not lock up the tires. Imagine now that while trying to do this I do a real messy downshift, tons of drivetrain shock, crappy rev matching, etc... You know what happens when you do that, the tires spin/jerk a little. If this happens while I am at the limit of my braking, I will loose adhesion. This could be either inconvenient or catastrophic, depending on the extent.
A similar example is cornering while on the accelerator. In a powerful car, you're not just going to stab the gas, then get totally off it. That'll play hell on the rear of the car, breaking the tires loose, then re-gripping, lather, rinse, repeat. Ideally, you balance the amout of gas to precisely the limit of adhesion to maintain the ideal line.
I don't really get to do all this in practice that much, so if anyone here who does lots of this wants to correct me, please do. I don't claim to have it all right. But, as I understand it, smooth = good.
A given set of tires mounted on a car of a given weight are capable of doing only so much. This limit can be split between several tasks, such as accelerating, turning, and braking (i.e. turning and accelerating simultaneously).
The objective should always be to smoothly transition between these tasks, thus allowing your tires to do whatever they are doing to their maximum capacity.
Example: Let's say that I'm coming into a tight left-hander, braking super late. I will be braking and downshifting at the same time (hence heel-and-toe). At least in my car (no ABS), I have to carefully modulate the brake pedal to brake at the limit but yet still not lock up the tires. Imagine now that while trying to do this I do a real messy downshift, tons of drivetrain shock, crappy rev matching, etc... You know what happens when you do that, the tires spin/jerk a little. If this happens while I am at the limit of my braking, I will loose adhesion. This could be either inconvenient or catastrophic, depending on the extent.
A similar example is cornering while on the accelerator. In a powerful car, you're not just going to stab the gas, then get totally off it. That'll play hell on the rear of the car, breaking the tires loose, then re-gripping, lather, rinse, repeat. Ideally, you balance the amout of gas to precisely the limit of adhesion to maintain the ideal line.
I don't really get to do all this in practice that much, so if anyone here who does lots of this wants to correct me, please do. I don't claim to have it all right. But, as I understand it, smooth = good.
Re: (HashiriyaGDB)
Actually, Hash, that was a pretty good. At least I think so.
Professional drivers don't use thier heel during down shifting any more either. Here is what Skip Barber has to say about the etomology of "heel-and-toeing."
"The phrase was coined more than forty years ago, when many racers had the pedals arranged so that the brake pedal was on the right, the clutch was on the left, and the throttle was between them and about six inches lower. Under braking, the driver had the ball of his right foot on the right-hand pedal and when the 'blip' was needed pushed down on the throttle with his heel- hence heel-and-toe. Pedal arrangements have changed but the term lingers on."-Skip Barber, Going Faster!
So it would look something like this | | _ ||. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |C| |T| |B| With this set up it would be a lot easier to incorporate the heel into the process. However left foot braking would be nigh on impossible. Rather one would have to develop left foot throttle.
Anyway, if you get a chance to read or purchase Barbers book Going Faster! then jump on it. I know Autobahn BMW in Ft. Worth and BMP Design both carry it.
Modified by Veriest1 at 4:24 PM 2/10/2005
Modified by Veriest1 at 4:37 PM 2/10/2005
Professional drivers don't use thier heel during down shifting any more either. Here is what Skip Barber has to say about the etomology of "heel-and-toeing."
"The phrase was coined more than forty years ago, when many racers had the pedals arranged so that the brake pedal was on the right, the clutch was on the left, and the throttle was between them and about six inches lower. Under braking, the driver had the ball of his right foot on the right-hand pedal and when the 'blip' was needed pushed down on the throttle with his heel- hence heel-and-toe. Pedal arrangements have changed but the term lingers on."-Skip Barber, Going Faster!
So it would look something like this | | _ ||. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |C| |T| |B| With this set up it would be a lot easier to incorporate the heel into the process. However left foot braking would be nigh on impossible. Rather one would have to develop left foot throttle.
Anyway, if you get a chance to read or purchase Barbers book Going Faster! then jump on it. I know Autobahn BMW in Ft. Worth and BMP Design both carry it.
Modified by Veriest1 at 4:24 PM 2/10/2005
Modified by Veriest1 at 4:37 PM 2/10/2005
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HashiriyaS14
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Well, you see some "professional" drivers (a.k.a. the Best Motoring guys, who I'd call as professional as anyone) using conventional heel-and-toe. I think it probably has as much to do with where your pedals sit and how big your feet are as anything.
In the WRX, I used conventional heel-and-toe, and it worked just fine. In the S14, I use more of a toe-and-side, with my toe on the brake and the side of my foot blipping the throttle.
In the WRX, I used conventional heel-and-toe, and it worked just fine. In the S14, I use more of a toe-and-side, with my toe on the brake and the side of my foot blipping the throttle.
Re: (HashiriyaGDB)
I have heard of some people using thier heel in the process becuase of their large feet... I guess the point I was trying to make is that the traditional method isn't taught anymore. At least not in Skip Barber's school. I'm going to try to attend the Evolution school in May so it will be interesting to see how they teach.
Re: (URM S14)
Nothin' like the heel and toe. Makes shifting to 2nd while going into turn a breeze. It's all about getting it in the right rpm for it to be a smooth engagement.
I position my foot at about 120-130 degrees.
I position my foot at about 120-130 degrees.