Japanese and Korean carmakers main beneficiaries of cash for clunkers program

[Victor]

Also, surprise, the rebates are to be taxed.An article I read yesterday said Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai got most of the sales from the cash for clunkers program that was supposed to bail out the American car makers. An unforeseen consequence according to the article was lower sales now that the program ended than would have normally occurred, and lots of people who overextended themselves to buy a car they weren't really ready to buy getting into financial difficulties.http://www.keloland.com/NewsDe...89084

[maxnix]

An article I read yesterday said Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai got most of the sales from the cash for clunkers program that was supposed to bail out the American car makers.

Toyota, Honda and Nissan manufacture cars in the good old US of A.

All those Ford Focus that were sold are made in Mexico.

Which sales benefited the American labor force more?

[Q451990]

Toyota, Honda and Nissan manufacture cars in the good old US of A.

All those Ford Focus that were sold are made in Mexico.

Which sales benefited the American labor force more?

True... I guess the differential is more union-made vs. non-union.

Heath

[Victor]

Is that manufactured in the U.S. with mostly American made parts or assembled in the U.S. with mostly foreign made parts. But anyway, the profits went back to the parent companies in Asia.

[Q45tech]

People do not understand how little profit is actually made on each car. The gross labor and labor associated costs greatly exceed the gross profit.

So where the labor, advertising, and parts are made is much more imporatnt than who owns the company [where the stockholders and executives are].

[trajanH]

People do not understand how little profit is actually made on each car. The gross labor and labor associated costs greatly exceed the gross profit.

So where the labor, advertising, and parts are made is much more imporatnt than who owns the company [where the stockholders and executives are].

Come on now! Profit is what these businesses are all about. As it stands now, those profits are flowing out of country and now when you want to repair your subsidized new car you are buying foreign made parts. I don't think that our country should be subsidizing foreign made automakers in that way. If you are going to have a cash for clunkers program using taxpayer money then make sure that everybody is buying all American. That is how it should be because one of the main problems with our weak economy is that nobody buys American anymore. We even spend our tax money on foreign stuff now!Makes one wonder if we really have any money or are just dependent on foreigners now?

[qship96]

Think Global Economy

The USA was not the only country to have a "cash for clunkers" program.

[Victor]

Germany had a cash for clunkers program, but I doubt anyone bought any American made cars. We just made the competition stronger at the tax payers expense.

[qship96]

Seems nobody wants American cars......you would think the US manufacturers would get the hint by now and start producing vehicles consumers WANT to purchase......not just occasionally buy because of the size of a discount or rebate

Any business needs RAVING FANS to be truly successful in todays global economy.....customer service means NOTHING, it is customer satisfaction that builds a brand and ultimately leads to repeat business and referrals

[maxnix]

Germany had a cash for clunkers program, but I doubt anyone bought any American made cars. We just made the competition stronger at the tax payers expense.

Mazda is or was 40% owned by Ford.

One wonders if Germans refer to Opel as an American car company or Swedes refer to Volvo or Saab as American car companies? Remember when Chrysler owned Lamborghini?

[Victor]

Wasn't China negotiating to buy Opel? Don't know if the deal ever went through though. China is expected to start exporting cars to the U.S. in the next few years. Hyundai just showed off a sports coupe based on their Genesis that they will start exporting to the U.S next year, the picture looked like it will take a lot of market share. China is also buying Hummer.

[Q45tech]

The entire plan is about lowering American standard of living to better equalize it to EU then lower both to the rest of world It must be done in stages.

[maxnix]

Buick is a big brand in China because they remember the few circulating there in the 30's. They are also built there. As are certain Cadillacs.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Mazda is or was 40% owned by Ford.

Was. Ford sold ~2/3 of their Mazda shares (some of them back to Mazda itself) last year.

[maxnix]

And I think GM sold their shares of Daihatsu.

[BadQ45t]

I personally believe the cash for cluckers should have forced people to the big three. There are very few cars that are made by GM, Ford or Chyr that I would consider but that said I think we should have made people buy those.

Afterall, we're all share holders now in GM...I always point out to people that my X-Terra is made in Tennessee and employess lots of Americans, but in this case I feel we should have pushed them to buy US cars. I am sure the program would have been far less successful.

On the American car side my dad recently bought a 09' STS Caddy (traded in a 08' LS460 as he wanted to downsize), it is a good car. 306hp, good build out, nice fit and finish...that said I would have taken the out-dated M45 over it, but he got it for 34k brand new, so you'd have to compare it to a G37 price wise. I would have taken a GS350 over it too, but again if he gifted me the car today I'd probably take it and enjoy it......other then that car, the trucks and SUVs always work, a Vette is always interesting, but where from there. Taura SHO?

[trajanH]

People forget that the problem with American cars these days is the styling. I rarely hear people talking about that. We talk about the build quality, performance but never the design. In the heyday of American cars the best auto designers were in the US. The design of American cars were on the cutting edge of auto design. We still have some of the best auto designers here. The VW New Beetle was designed in the US but the best (most stylish)designs never make it to the market because for some ironic reason the US automakers play it safe and go for the design they think will appeal to everybody. It is ironic in that they end up appealing to the very few and leave a big opening in the market for foreign automakers to exploit.

Just look at most of the cars that GM is trying to push on Americans and you will see some of the ugliest cars on the market. Very few of the cars styling can compete with the foreign automakers and that is why GM is bankrupt and I think they should just go away. Or at least we should be using our tax money to give some opportunity for some new American automakers(designers) to introduce a modern generation of product that Americans will want to buy..

[Skibane]

An unforeseen consequence according to the article was lower sales now that the program ended than would have normally occurred, and lots of people who overextended themselves to buy a car they weren't really ready to buy getting into financial difficulties.

Hey, I got an idea: Since the auto industry is hurting due to a credit crunch caused by people buying houses they couldn't afford, why don't we give these people taxpayer money to help them buy cars they also can't afford?

What could possibly go wrong?

Prediction: Look for a glut of repossessed, poorly-maintained used cars on the market within the next 6 months...

[MinisterofDOOM]

On the American car side my dad recently bought a 09' STS Caddy

I really like the current STS, but I think Caddy was a little too careful with it. Power's on the low end, and the car's not that much bigger than the CTS. The styling is great, though (a more "grown up" cleaner variation on the CTS).

[paranoidjack]

Prediction: Look for a glut of repossessed, poorly-maintained used cars on the market within the next 6 months...

150% agreed, was just saying this today to a friend of mine. Some cheap 09's to be had in '10.

[maxnix]

...... a Vette is always interesting, but where from there. Taura SHO?

A vette is basically the world's best kit car.

A Taurus SHO weighs more than a G50. How much gas will that burn to move as fast?

[jltibbs]

Toyota, Honda and Nissan manufacture cars in the good old US of A.

All those Ford Focus that were sold are made in Mexico.

Which sales benefited the American labor force more?

Brian,

3N1

IYDKYDG.

[aces805]

Let GM, Ford, and Chrysler die already. Kill em dead. Pull the plug. Enough is enough already. We are simply delaying the inevitable. Are we seriously to believe that the big 3 will come out of this mess and regain significant market share? GM projects to pass with flying colors? Ford will suddenly revamp it's reputation? Chrysler will begin making sound business decisions? WTF are we doing here with these dinosaurs?!

It is 2009 now. We are not in the 50s, 60s, and 70s anymore. Father time stops for no one. Either change with the times or get left behind. It is time to leave GM, Ford, and Chrysler behind and move forward. Keeping the big 3 alive is like keeping vegetables alive on life support. What a wonderful life these vegetables lead; just sitting there, drooling and crapping all over themselves.

Pull the damn plug already. I got my 94 G50, I don't need a 2009 Dodge Caliber.

[jltibbs]

Just let us know how you really feel!

[BadQ45t]

I meant that it was a CTS..not STS. The car ain't bad, pretty nice in fact..again for the PRICE he paid, which ws 34k with every possible feature (sticker was 52k, right Cadillac).

I agree about styling of most American cars, they are just horrible. Ford seems to have done the best, the new SHO is suppose to get 17/26 according to Ford, could be who knows how real that is at this point. I drive alot of American cars as Rentals from Avis, however, lately they have been giving me Altima's, what a treat it is to get that car over the Impala or some other POS.

I think as far as the US letting them all go belly up, one of the three has to go. Ford seems to have survived with some decent smaller cars and some cool toys (like Sych) that have help them sell to Gen Y.

I think they are on to the right approach, get rid of Pontiac, have fewer models nad no duplicates with re-badge. We'll see, so far the UAW contracts have been challenged, they need to be broken or none of them will be competitive. Right now every Chevy has to make $1700 in profit to pay for the benefits of retired workers. Toyota needs to make $400. That just isn't going to work. Paying people 75k a year to mount rims on cars on an assembly line isn't going to work. The same person in Tenn makes 1/2 that on the X-Terra assembly line and that is a liveable wage for an unskilled assemly line worker.

The question is can the clean it up fast enough and is the UAW going to be smart enough to know that jobs with lower wages and no sponored retirements (take a 401k like the rest of the public job sector has too now) are better then 3 companies that are out of business and can pay zero. You know who is paying those benefits when they all go out of business, that would be the US taxpayers.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Ford seems to have done the best, the new SHO is suppose to get 17/26 according to Ford, could be who knows how real that is at this point.

It's a crock. Car and Driver averaged SIXTEEN MPG in their test SHO. Not 16 city/20-something higway. AVERAGE of sixteen. That's worse than my Q, which I drive as if stolen.

There were a couple recent threads in general chat (one about forced induction, the other about the SHO itself) where I've talked about the stupidity of using turbos on small motors to equal a big motor. V8 has more torque all around, can get away with taller gearing (though, again, I get better than 16mpg average...WITH my 4.08) and can cruise at much lower rpm than a boosted 6. I have never been a FI kind of person...FI is what you do when you're out of "real" options. Subtracting displacement and then adding cylinders just to barely break even seems like running in circles to me.

It really annoys me that so many manufacturers are using turbos as fuel economy tools when in reality they are nothing of the sort. If you're making more power, you're using more fuel. It's that simple. If you're stuffing more air into the cylinder (whether via larger cylinder volume or compressors) you're going to have to add more fuel, too. Why not just go the simple, reliable, broad-purpose route and make a BIG motor that can cruise at 2000rpm on the highway and doesn't need to rev past 3000 in town?

Of course, part of the new SHO's problem is it needs a diet. And I'm not talking about size, I'm talking about unnecessary garbage. The car is AWD but the AWD system is so downtoned and low-tech that the only time it ever comes into play is in bad weather. It's not a handling enhancer and is basically just FWD until the front wheels need more traction. But it adds tons of weight and complexity...the end result of which is a curb weight of 4300lb with no worthwhile benefits.