ITB video demo please...

[trxtreme]

hi, i was wondering if anyone has a video of a N/A ka engine with a ITB setup. Im really interested in how it sounds and power achieved using ITB. Cheers

[Julian]

hi, i was wondering if anyone has a video of a N/A ka engine with a ITB setup. Im really interested in how it sounds and power achieved using ITB. Cheers

If you have a plenum attached to the ITBs (IOW, you're running the MAF), there will be little change in sound, especially if you have a decently loud exhaust. Plenumed ITBs won't give you that "Hachiroku" intake noise, if that is what you're looking for.

Also, power achieved with ITBs depends on the modifications the engine already has. Without all the bolt-ons, cams, and higher compression, you may be disappointed.

I had I/H/E and cams, and gained low-end grunt (while retaining all the top-end power) switching back to the stock intake manifold.

[trxtreme]

im not sure on how to go about a higher compression, i think i read somewhere( you can use a DE head to with stock kaE pistons rods ect to raise the compression )i have a regrinded cam though. When i make my ITB using suzuki gsxr1000 throttle bodies im planning to upgrade my ecu and use a Z32 maf. Would that be enough to for ITBs to be worthwhile?

[SimpleEnigma]

Yes, you can use the piston heads out of the '90 KA24E motor and they will raise your compression from 9.5:1 to 11.1:1. Search for stuff on ITB's. there are a few guys who are currently running ITB's and their setups vary from standalone EMS to plenums and MAF. The major thing you would see upgrading to ITB is the throttle response.

[A34D4ME]

If I'm not mistaken, the stock intake manifold will already flow more air than necessary for most modestly built N/A motors.

I'd also assume that any other potential benefits would be lost when reducing to one MAF.

I'm curious though, ITBs are cool but what exactely would you hope to accomplish with them?

[Julian]

The major thing you would see upgrading to ITB is the throttle response.

In my experience, throttle response was not significantly improved. It's not something you can measure, so it is hard to call the issue. In running my ITBs for nearly a year, I never once had a OMG moment cracking the throttle. You'd find bigger gains with lighter rotating components.

Granted, this was using the stock ECU and its timing maps, air/fuel ratios verified via WBO2. I'd imagine there would be gains if you rolled your own fuel and timing maps.

If I'm not mistaken, the stock intake manifold will already flow more air than necessary for most modestly built N/A motors.I'd also assume that any other potential benefits would be lost when reducing to one MAF.I'm curious though, ITBs are cool but what exactely would you hope to accomplish with them?

My experience has been that the stock intake manifold is not a restriction for KAs with bolt-ons.Most OEMs that use ITBs (BMW M-series engines, Nissan GTi-R and GT-R, for example) use plenum-based ITBs. The plenum doesn't detract from the advantages of ITBs, which is what I assume you mean by "reducing to one MAF." There remain individual intake tracts, throttle plates, and reversion pulses.

ITBs are cool, and they look bitchin'. Beyond that, it was an experiment to see what was what. If ITBs gained significant power. If the stock manifold was a junky piece of...junk (as it is stereotyped on most 240 lists). If I could make the setup work.

[InsanityInc]

If I'm not mistaken, the stock intake manifold will already flow more air than necessary for most modestly built N/A motors.

I'd also assume that any other potential benefits would be lost when reducing to one MAF.

I'm curious though, ITBs are cool but what exactely would you hope to accomplish with them?

The CFM capacity of the intake manifold runners isn't really the problem, it's the runner length. At high RPM, the longer runners will create a pseudo-restriction by making it harder to access the air in the plenum.

[DjPantsSpecR]

just wanted to correct a high compressin mistake earlier in the thread

90 pistons will give around 12.1:189 pistons will give around 12.7:1in a DE

Yeah, agreeing with insanityinc, the length of the runners is simply too long for making top end, or rather high rpm power gains. Shortening the runners on the ITBs will allow you to tune the "sweet spot" by using helmholtz wave equations to create power at whatever RPM you want

even the stock intake tubing is affected by these waves, and the resonator in place is, at least according to me, in place as a helmholtz resonator to help produce power in two different "sweet spots"

Additionally, based on other NICO ITB users, there is very little to gain with the stock ECU and the ITBs. much tuning is needed, but it also helps to have EVERYTHING else too...

[mkory]

If not running a them into a plenum, and using a MAF, how else will the engine make the proper AFRs?

[corn322]

MAP sensor I imagine.

[mkory]

Hmm... I don't think I know what that is.

[deviousKA]

I dont have a video camera, but I would be glad to post a vid if I did. My little brothers friend has a nice one and I keep buggin him to bring it over, maybe someday.

If running open stack ITB you need a map-based ecu to control it. You will be tuning via speed-desity to plot your volumetric efficiency (percent of ve, pre-calculated based on engine displacement and peak characteristics).

Hotwire maf ecus (nissan specifically) are much different, using a high quality hotwire sensor, and excellent designed fuel algorithms to work in terms of A/F target, these are much easier to tune and are very accurate in varying environment conditions. These also require very little throttle enrichment tuning.

So, you dont "need" a standalone to run ITB, you can run a plenum with an intake tube to the maf. You have a cost and time advantage, and also you will be pulling in some cooler air from outside the main engine bay.

A z32 maf combined with a 90-92 stanza ecu would work quite nicely. Full tuning capability, and also monitoring via laptop (or just about any rs232/usb device). The advantage of the stanza ecu being that you can also map-trace your a/f target maps in real time.

A large maxima maf would also work well, not as much hotwire capability as the z32 but the diameter is good.

All oem versions of the sohc ka24e pistons yeild 11-11.7:1 c/r in the ka24de with uncut block and head surfaces, and an oem combustion chamber volume.

[mkory]

Couldn't you just set up a hotwire sensor on one of the cylinders, and use an safc to tune it so enough gas gets through to all of them? I'm thinking either that or use some kind of transformer to multiply the voltage by 4.

[deviousKA]

Theoretically you could do something like that, I have never seen such a system, but It would not be quite as simple as it sounds. It would take a lot of testing and maf calibration, and you would have the maf components possibly restricting a single cylinder. You would never pull it off with a piggyback, would require some major changes to the associated airflow code in ecu.

If you want to keep your maf system, go with a plenum and nicely designed intake tube.

And forget the safc, buy a chip burner instead.

[A34D4ME]

From what I'm hearing ITBs on a mostly stock motor would be a lot more trouble than they would be worth.

I'd say the best bet would be to get some SOHC pistons for that DOHC and have everything balanced so you can let those RPMs rip.

Anybody have any input on the gains from such a swap?

By the way DeviousKA, any word on that stage 4 N/A tune?

[deviousKA]

Stage 4 tune is ready at any time, available with single map 1/1 fuel/timing conversion for those using emulators or the regular 4/2 map configuration for those wanting control over those. Other rom code mods in the works, configurable outputs and trace stream with other sensors at same time.

But, I will be reluctant to share the tune with anyone that is not have a wideband sensor and appropriate monitoring or logging capability. Also only for those who have already done some testing with the 3rd version, with above mentioned o2 sensor.

You can produce 200whp with the stock intake manifolds, cast pistons, and stock crank/rods. You simply need to start from the ground up building a completely fresh longblock, no stone left unturned. Think like a race team that is limited to the oem components.

It is just as easy to do this with the sohc, the only disadvantage is that proper pistons are a custom only item.

[trxtreme]

has anyone seen itb used with a forced induction setup, beside gti-r's and gtr's. hmmm curious, woulds anyone no how a kae respond to that kind of setup???

[DjPantsSpecR]

wow, i ve been away for a while, but i gotta apologize for that ridiculous misinformation. i remember correcting someone else not too long ago about the compression being 11.1-2 - 11.7 instead of 12.1..... obviously not 12, so sorry again.

i would assume that any motor would respond well with ITBs and forced induction. Most race motors with forced induction use ITBs, so i can imagine race engineers know a little more than we do.

to directly answer your question, BMW M3s have ITBs as well. as does like every F1 motor of all time

[TrueSlide]

2 motors have ITBs are still completly different, BMW has a plenum style setup, as f1 have ITBs and rev insanely high.

[cwalke32477]

not to sound stupid, but what the hell does ITB mean? what is it? From the article I can assume it has something to do with the intake.

[GhostDriver]

Individual throttle bodies. Each cylinder has its own butterfly valve.zerothread?id=148892

[SimpleEnigma]

Pair DeviousKA's Stage 4 tune witha fully built High compression motor, ITBs, Panda's Haltech engine control system and one of Bigvinnie's fully counterweighted cranks he keeps looking into and someone'll have one hell of an NA machine.

[TrueSlide]

There are other ways to obtain fully balanced cranks

[Silvia_Freak]

What would having 90-pistons on a DE do with a stock motor without turbo or ITB. OR WITH TURBO?