Well, I’ve been researching doing an ITB setup on my KA24E. Here is my information and some questions....
ONE:TWM uses 45mm and 48mm TB’s for inline 6 BMW’s. http://www.twminduction.com/Th....html
A BMW M3 engine is a little more than 3 liters. I’m not 100% up to date here but my point is even on the smaller engines BMW manufactures TWM uses 45mm TB’s. We’re talking 6 cylinders here. Each cylinder is smaller than one of the 4 found on a KA and they are delivering, roughly, the same amount of fuel delivered by a Suzuki TB’s to each of these cylinders. Money aside, doesn’t 50mm seem closer to appropriate for KA’s?
TWO:TWM also makes a universal fiberglass plenum which, they claim, really helps FI engines with ITB’s. However it can’t be pressurized.
A brand known as Golden Eagle makes an aluminum plenum for ITB’s but it’s shaped like a shoe box and therefore can’t be good for airflow.
The plenum would quiet the intake noise and give a somewhat stock look to the engine bay which Johnny Law might appreciate (Read: not notice).
I haven’t heard this anywhere else. Does anyone have experiences with ITB’s with and without plenums?
THREE:“Original equipment EFI systems are configured to meet very stringent emission regulations and to provide "soft" driveability characteristics. Positioning the injector as close to the inlet valve is beneficial in this respect. Maximum power however, is usually obtained by moving the injector away from the inlet valve, some racing engine manufacturers going as far as to mount the injector high in the velocity stack and others installing two injectors, designed to operate at different RPM. When TWM designed the throttle bodies our engineers were not in favor of having high pressure fuel on the atmosphere side of the throttle plate, although this could have resulted in some power increase. We compromised by mounting the injector as far from the cylinder head as possible while still maintaining the safety afforded by keeping the fuel downstream of the butterfly.”-http://www.twminduction.com/faq/faq-FR.html
Has anyone considered using injectors designed for the donor bike? This would place the injectors closer to the throttle bodies and presumably make more power.
This guy… http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthrea...21524…says the 01 and 02 gixxer 1000 injectors are 280cc and good to 224 horsepower. That’s the only information I’ve found so far though.
Would there be problems getting the Nissan ECU or a standalone/piggy to work with the Suzuki injectors if they’re big enough?
FOUR:A person could carb their engine. Here is what Tim Suddard, owner and editor of Grassroots Motorsport Magazine, has to say.· “ The extreme accuracy of fuel delivery by the ECU, at any load or RPM, provides the engine with air/fuel mixtures that fall within a tiny window of accuracy required for maximum power, or maximum economy.· EFI systems are not subject to the usual fuel surge and frothing associated with floats and float bowls in carburetors. One of the limiting factors in race car lap times has been the ability of the fuel system to deal with G forces. Gravitational forces in both horizontal and vertical planes have no effect on EFI systems.· ECU control of air/fuel ratios allows racing engines to safely operate nearer to the “ragged edge”. · PC programmable EFI can easily be adapted to suit future engine modifications as a vehicle evolves. Adjustments to fuel and ignition curves being as simple as making a few keystrokes on a PC. · EFI generally permits greater flexibility of intake manifolds designed to achieve higher inlet air flow rates and consistent cylinder to cylinder air/fuel distribution.· More efficient, higher compression ratios are usable, due to accurate fuel metering. This is especially the case with EFI units incorporating ignition control.· When converting to forced induction, turbocharging, or supercharging, EFI will enable the user to program boost-relative enrichment easily, usually leading to substantial power increases as a result of accurate fuel delivery.· Most EFI systems compensate automatically for changes in altitude and ambient temperature. Calibrating a fuel system for a specific race venue is hardly necessary with EFI, if adjustments are to be made, a few keystrokes on a PC are all that is necessary. · Some EFI systems also have a provision for a cockpit-mounted mixture control with which the driver can vary the air/fuel ratio. TWM's HALMETER AF30 is particularly useful for this purpose, providing a visual, onboard read out of the air/fuel ratio with its 30 LED display. · The solid state electronics in EFI systems are not susceptible to the mechanical failures associated with carburetors. Tuning parameters remain as programmed, with never any need to adjust for wear.”The above list was actually found at http://www.twminduction.com/faq/faq-FR.html.
Note: I copy and paste real good.
Even without his information I really don’t see a reason to carb an engine when it’s already set up for fuel injection. With a plenum the MAF system could be utilized and the injectors could even start in the stock position for budget purposes. At the moment I don’t think I could carb if I wanted to because I haven’t seen any setups for sale. I’ve seen plenty of pictures of them and heard of some carbed race cars though. Any reason big money race cars run carbs?
Thoughts? Inputs? Advice from more experienced people would be appreciated.
I may ebay this set of Hayabusa TB’s. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...10066 Whatchya think?
Modified by Veriest1 at 1:13 AM 12/28/2004
ITB's and the sexy sounds thereof.
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deviousKA
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Re: ITB's and the sexy sounds thereof. (Veriest1)
First of all I have to say you have definately been doing your homework on the project. Id be glad to lend you some info on what ive done on my ka24e and other itb setups.
One thing you need to take into consideration when sizing throttles is the characteristics of the sohc e, the cylinder head/design flow as well as the hp/torque nature of the engine. Compared to say, that bmw engine, the kaE pushes more displacement per cylinder and develops its peaks at lower range of harmonic. Less actual operational peak flow is required. A 45mm throttle on ka is more suited, compared to 45mm on an engine that may be smaller yet develops its hp/torque at a different range (im speaking higher harmonic). Im guessing here on the aspects of that i6 bmw (educated guess ). Dohc ka is similar but the nature of the port shape and valve arrangement allows for more flow (about 60cfm more on exhaust, unported, on a bench).
That does not mean that the ka will not work well with a larger throttle, like a 48 or 50. This will give you more headroom for modifying and changing the breathing aspects of the engine (developing peaks at higher rpm). You will trade off some throttle response/power in the low end on a semi-modified engine. Both 45 and 50mm itbs have been run on sohc ka. I did not go into runner length here but im sure you already know what your going to do.
On my sohc thats in my car now and has the itbs, it is 2.5l. The pistons arent super light, and the rotating assembly is somewhat basic (7-7200 redline). Needless to say on this particular engine, a smaller gsxr750/1000 43-44mm throttle with a 10" overall runner suits it well. My injectors are also mounted about 7" away from the port/flange and are on the underside of my setup, upside down. Moving the injector away becomes less efficient as far as gas consumption at lower rpms or idle, but the fuel atomization/mixture is more complete.
Plenum gives a couple advantages. It makes filtering and getting colder air to the itbs a world easier, and makes it more simple to inject water or alcohol. The TWM plenum is a clean peice and if i were to get one that would be it.
I run a dual stage box filter, or open stacks. The entire intake side of my engine will be seperated from the rest with cool air (underhood panels). Thats a project for when the snow melts.
All that i know about the suzuki injectors is that the 00-02 750's are really small. 130 or 180cc iirc. I hightly doubt the 1000's are 280cc, maybe the busas are.
ITB Fuel injection is simple to set up on an already efi car, on nissans that means keeping the maf and stock tps. Injector/tuning is rather simple, especially with sohc ka ecu and harness. Dump the piggy back idea and rom tune it http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....74077
dual sidedraft carbs, although the technology may seem "old" put out very respectible fueling. 85% of both sohc and dohc NA ka over 200hp are running sidedrafts, with us itb guys running just about equal so far.
One thing you need to take into consideration when sizing throttles is the characteristics of the sohc e, the cylinder head/design flow as well as the hp/torque nature of the engine. Compared to say, that bmw engine, the kaE pushes more displacement per cylinder and develops its peaks at lower range of harmonic. Less actual operational peak flow is required. A 45mm throttle on ka is more suited, compared to 45mm on an engine that may be smaller yet develops its hp/torque at a different range (im speaking higher harmonic). Im guessing here on the aspects of that i6 bmw (educated guess ). Dohc ka is similar but the nature of the port shape and valve arrangement allows for more flow (about 60cfm more on exhaust, unported, on a bench).
That does not mean that the ka will not work well with a larger throttle, like a 48 or 50. This will give you more headroom for modifying and changing the breathing aspects of the engine (developing peaks at higher rpm). You will trade off some throttle response/power in the low end on a semi-modified engine. Both 45 and 50mm itbs have been run on sohc ka. I did not go into runner length here but im sure you already know what your going to do.
On my sohc thats in my car now and has the itbs, it is 2.5l. The pistons arent super light, and the rotating assembly is somewhat basic (7-7200 redline). Needless to say on this particular engine, a smaller gsxr750/1000 43-44mm throttle with a 10" overall runner suits it well. My injectors are also mounted about 7" away from the port/flange and are on the underside of my setup, upside down. Moving the injector away becomes less efficient as far as gas consumption at lower rpms or idle, but the fuel atomization/mixture is more complete.
Plenum gives a couple advantages. It makes filtering and getting colder air to the itbs a world easier, and makes it more simple to inject water or alcohol. The TWM plenum is a clean peice and if i were to get one that would be it.
I run a dual stage box filter, or open stacks. The entire intake side of my engine will be seperated from the rest with cool air (underhood panels). Thats a project for when the snow melts.
All that i know about the suzuki injectors is that the 00-02 750's are really small. 130 or 180cc iirc. I hightly doubt the 1000's are 280cc, maybe the busas are.
ITB Fuel injection is simple to set up on an already efi car, on nissans that means keeping the maf and stock tps. Injector/tuning is rather simple, especially with sohc ka ecu and harness. Dump the piggy back idea and rom tune it http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....74077
dual sidedraft carbs, although the technology may seem "old" put out very respectible fueling. 85% of both sohc and dohc NA ka over 200hp are running sidedrafts, with us itb guys running just about equal so far.
Thanks a lot deviousKA. I was hoping you would reply to this actually.
The BMW engine I was refering to is actually larger in displacement but smaller in individual piston size.I was really just asking about TB size really since even if bigger TBs are better I don't think they are worth the extra money. About 350 a pop from TWM.
In truth, I don't know a whole lot about harmonics just yet. But I have read that the E develops power at a lower harmonic. Which you supported.
As far as runner length goes I'm not sure yet but I have a bunch of material saved to my computer about it that I haven't read yet. I'll probably start on that tomorrow. I'll probably have questions there as well.
What is the reason for mounting the injectors upside down? Does it just atomize better for some reason? Since I'm not sure about the size of the Suzuki injectors yet how big are the Suzuki injector ports and will the KA injectors even come close to fitting? The Busa bodies I'm looking at seem to have injectors. I'll ask the shop that has the TBs about their size tomorrow.
I am seriously considering the TWM plenum piece actually. The other one was just trash even if it was welded together well.
I had previously found the ROM link you gave. I searched the forums for your screen name =).I don't know much about ROM tuning yet, it's in there with the runner information. My initial impression on the ROM tuning is that it's a bit technical to get started since I know little about computer chips and soldering. However, I do have access to my pops laptop so there's a plus.I was thinking about the MVP Motorsports Map piggyback. It's a little expensive but it comes with a wideband. Actually, it would seem MVP is expensive on a lot of things.
Anyway, I have a nieghbor who is a proffesional welder so I'll probably have him attach the TB's to my manifold. Even if it doesn't help much I find the tubing to be aestheticly unpleasing and would prefer not to use it if I can keep from it.
The BMW engine I was refering to is actually larger in displacement but smaller in individual piston size.I was really just asking about TB size really since even if bigger TBs are better I don't think they are worth the extra money. About 350 a pop from TWM.
In truth, I don't know a whole lot about harmonics just yet. But I have read that the E develops power at a lower harmonic. Which you supported.
As far as runner length goes I'm not sure yet but I have a bunch of material saved to my computer about it that I haven't read yet. I'll probably start on that tomorrow. I'll probably have questions there as well.
What is the reason for mounting the injectors upside down? Does it just atomize better for some reason? Since I'm not sure about the size of the Suzuki injectors yet how big are the Suzuki injector ports and will the KA injectors even come close to fitting? The Busa bodies I'm looking at seem to have injectors. I'll ask the shop that has the TBs about their size tomorrow.
I am seriously considering the TWM plenum piece actually. The other one was just trash even if it was welded together well.
I had previously found the ROM link you gave. I searched the forums for your screen name =).I don't know much about ROM tuning yet, it's in there with the runner information. My initial impression on the ROM tuning is that it's a bit technical to get started since I know little about computer chips and soldering. However, I do have access to my pops laptop so there's a plus.I was thinking about the MVP Motorsports Map piggyback. It's a little expensive but it comes with a wideband. Actually, it would seem MVP is expensive on a lot of things.
Anyway, I have a nieghbor who is a proffesional welder so I'll probably have him attach the TB's to my manifold. Even if it doesn't help much I find the tubing to be aestheticly unpleasing and would prefer not to use it if I can keep from it.
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deviousKA
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Re: (Veriest1)
I was speaking displacement as in single cylinder.
The reason my injectors are mounted on the bottom of the runners is due to the installed runner angle. Mounting the injectors underneath provide a much straighter shot into the runner as well as less angle overall (more direct to port). My installed runners have an upward tilt.
You will need a custom fuel rail and bracketry, depending on what top feed injectors you use.
On another manifold ive been working on, this angle is much more extreme, and due to the length of the runners on that particular manifold, the injector shoots direct center of port. The injectors are mounted in similar fashion.
BTW you may want to look into Weber bodies, similar to TWM. There is also many more manufactures in europe for throttles. Personally i would not weld on the casting of suzuki, or any other "lightweight" bodied throttle casting. Plate fitment is a priority, although you could always hone them out and install larger plates. You can actually buy kits to do this designed for gsxr.
Beauty of these type of setups is its simple to change, i could have a cold air plenum set on there in little time. I may buy one of those twm or similar split clamped plenums soon. Racing panel filter box like pipercross or itg work very well, and something anyone with a tuned ITB setup will want on their rack.
The reason my injectors are mounted on the bottom of the runners is due to the installed runner angle. Mounting the injectors underneath provide a much straighter shot into the runner as well as less angle overall (more direct to port). My installed runners have an upward tilt.
You will need a custom fuel rail and bracketry, depending on what top feed injectors you use.
On another manifold ive been working on, this angle is much more extreme, and due to the length of the runners on that particular manifold, the injector shoots direct center of port. The injectors are mounted in similar fashion.
BTW you may want to look into Weber bodies, similar to TWM. There is also many more manufactures in europe for throttles. Personally i would not weld on the casting of suzuki, or any other "lightweight" bodied throttle casting. Plate fitment is a priority, although you could always hone them out and install larger plates. You can actually buy kits to do this designed for gsxr.
Beauty of these type of setups is its simple to change, i could have a cold air plenum set on there in little time. I may buy one of those twm or similar split clamped plenums soon. Racing panel filter box like pipercross or itg work very well, and something anyone with a tuned ITB setup will want on their rack.
Re: (deviousKA)
Hmm... I've noticed the possibilities becoming endless in the last few days....
I need to take my manifold off and measure the ports. I'm going to look into getting a set of ITB's like the DCOE or IDF and mating them to a custom manifold.
I've decided to go the ROM method of tuning by the way. I talked with my dad about my different options and he was almost giddy over the ROM tuning... he's an electrical engineer.
I need to take my manifold off and measure the ports. I'm going to look into getting a set of ITB's like the DCOE or IDF and mating them to a custom manifold.
I've decided to go the ROM method of tuning by the way. I talked with my dad about my different options and he was almost giddy over the ROM tuning... he's an electrical engineer.
The intake ports are 60mm across and 45 up and down if I remember correctly. As you see, this becomes a small problem if using 45mm tb's because you must make the runners increase in width (taper). I had been researching this topic for a while as well, and I narrowed the best choices to be the gixxer 750 + 1000 for price and performance. You have to fight the honda boys on ebay for them, but the advantage is that they are a "separable design" and I think 45mm diameter. From what I found out 42mm - 45mm was the best choice for our engine, due to the low-revving nature of it. I kinda gave up when figuring out runner lengths, (i think 9" was the shortest I could muster) and having to run an EMS. Now that I know that i can pehaps do a piggyback or a rom upgrade, I may just retake this task.
By the way, on the problem of injector placement, I was planning to cut manifold right around the head, weld some new runners, attach the itbs, jb weld the stock gixxer injector holes and just upgrade to 360cc's using the stock injector position in the original cut manifold. However then you run into the issue of atomization, whether it's better to have them close to the head, or close to the itb's. I guess you could bore the gixxer's holes to acommodate your choice of injectors+a fuel rail, and then just jb weld the ka's mani holes.
Any way, my problems were:runner length...where does it end? I know it's supposed to start inside the head, where the valve sits...but does it end at the throttle body butterfly or at the trumphet's end?
ECU...what to use? I was going for Megasquirt+megaspark, or megasquirt+stocker, but that just adds more time into the project. If I were to run the stock ECU, then I would have to build a plenum which in itself requires more calculations into design, volume, and feeding pipe lengh and diameter.
Even with really long runners, I had to spin the engine beyond some of its limits, which required balancing, and some engine refinements which I would not have.
By the way, on the problem of injector placement, I was planning to cut manifold right around the head, weld some new runners, attach the itbs, jb weld the stock gixxer injector holes and just upgrade to 360cc's using the stock injector position in the original cut manifold. However then you run into the issue of atomization, whether it's better to have them close to the head, or close to the itb's. I guess you could bore the gixxer's holes to acommodate your choice of injectors+a fuel rail, and then just jb weld the ka's mani holes.
Any way, my problems were:runner length...where does it end? I know it's supposed to start inside the head, where the valve sits...but does it end at the throttle body butterfly or at the trumphet's end?
ECU...what to use? I was going for Megasquirt+megaspark, or megasquirt+stocker, but that just adds more time into the project. If I were to run the stock ECU, then I would have to build a plenum which in itself requires more calculations into design, volume, and feeding pipe lengh and diameter.
Even with really long runners, I had to spin the engine beyond some of its limits, which required balancing, and some engine refinements which I would not have.
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deviousKA
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Re: (Chingon)
Stock injector location with the itb injector holes filled is just fine, makes things a lot easier when using a modified oem manifold. Runner length technically is the entire length including the port inside the head, for the sake of discussion runner length is given for just the manifold itself, beginning at the backside of the flange. It ends at trumpet end. You will want 9-11 inches, different lengths within that range will yield different results but work well with a semi-built ka. Going shorter than 8" with the runner should only be done with highly modified engines.
I run a mega+spark and full custom harness simply because i like the tuning environment better. You could modify oem efi or other standalone or piggyback, lots of different options in this dept. All require some work and research to find out what they will offer you in capability/ease of install.
My setup allows me to swap different engines in and out easily using the same harnesses, another plus.
I run a mega+spark and full custom harness simply because i like the tuning environment better. You could modify oem efi or other standalone or piggyback, lots of different options in this dept. All require some work and research to find out what they will offer you in capability/ease of install.
My setup allows me to swap different engines in and out easily using the same harnesses, another plus.
Re: (deviousKA)
deviouska: what method are you using to get spark? EDIS, GM HEI or are you using the stock dizzy and coil? i just started reading up on the mega system and am curious how your controling spark on ypur ka.
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deviousKA
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Re: (eddiec)
I am using edis, youll notice the picture in my sig is old. Edis is a good system, simply using a 36 tooth wheel/vr sensor along with a 4 post coil pack and control unit. Ill take some pictures here soon of the setup on a ka. My cranktrigger is press fit to the back of my machine fit crank pulley, where the ac used to be.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zero...age=1
Bit of reading if anyone of you guys looking at DIY itb's are interested. 90% of them are all GSXR 1000 units.
Bit of reading if anyone of you guys looking at DIY itb's are interested. 90% of them are all GSXR 1000 units.
Re: (deviousKA)
i was leaning more towards edis as well. i had planned to put the vr sensor where the a/c was also. really would like to see pics of your toothed wheel setup.
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deviousKA
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Re: (Chingon)
UMS/MS2 is a simple software and drop in processor upgrade to the earlier MS versions (v2.2 specifically). All wiring/circuit board assembly and layout is the same so no loss in starting your build early.
Ill post a couple pics of that trigger setup tonight when i get home, it works out really nice with the deletion of the AC. As for the wheel itself, anyone who has been researching it may have seen my post on msefi.com. The guy Scott that posted on that thread in the edis section, he sent me the wheel i used (cad designed, flowjet cut). Contact him and ask for the cad file, you can bring it to any machine shop that does that sort of work and they can cut it out.
Ill post a couple pics of that trigger setup tonight when i get home, it works out really nice with the deletion of the AC. As for the wheel itself, anyone who has been researching it may have seen my post on msefi.com. The guy Scott that posted on that thread in the edis section, he sent me the wheel i used (cad designed, flowjet cut). Contact him and ask for the cad file, you can bring it to any machine shop that does that sort of work and they can cut it out.
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deviousKA
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Re: (deviousKA)
Heres a picture, not a great one, but a picture. Yes i have an oil leak, coming from the front of the headgasket, id rather not talk about it.
The vr sensor bracket is extended from the top 2 of the old ac bolt location.
The vr sensor bracket is extended from the top 2 of the old ac bolt location.
Re: (deviousKA)
I know ms2 is a drop in chip, but I thought they would change the board layout for UMS. Are you sure it's just chip and rom update for UMS?deviousKA wrote:UMS/MS2 is a simple software and drop in processor upgrade to the earlier MS versions (v2.2 specifically). All wiring/circuit board assembly and layout is the same so no loss in starting your build early.
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deviousKA
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Re: (Chingon)
The UMS firmware/software is designed to fully take advantage of the processor upgrade and new on board features on the upgrade itself. The same mainboard layout and components will be used. Some of the new features will require thier own components, which is all planned for and available on the v2.2 board. Thats simplified, go check out the ms forums.
B&G designed their megasquirt this way, to be upgraded and keep many of the same components. Keeps costs down for diy.
B&G designed their megasquirt this way, to be upgraded and keep many of the same components. Keeps costs down for diy.