It's Official Obama is Anti Gun

[Cold_Zero]

With Obama tapping Joe Biden as VP, its pretty much official, this campaign is totally Anti Gun and Anti Second Amendment. For you folks that aren't aware, Joe Biden helped craft the infamous 'Assault Weapons Ban.' I am sure that the guys in Fairfax Virginia were rejoicing when they heard his name come up. Time to renew my NRA ownership, I already stocked up on ammunition today at the gun show.

Here is a little link with some facts about Obama's 2nd Amendment stance.

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

[Jimefam]

I am a gun owner and strong supporter of the 2nd amendment but that NRA propaganda is rife with out of context statements and half-truths. This is why I cant fully support the NRA or pretty much any other political organization. They rely on their members not to do to much research and let there emotions dictate there votes.

[telcoman]

With Obama tapping Joe Biden as VP, its pretty much official, this campaign is totally Anti Gun and Anti Second Amendment. For you folks that aren't aware, Joe Biden helped craft the infamous 'Assault Weapons Ban.' I am sure that the guys in Fairfax Virginia were rejoicing when they heard his name come up. Time to renew my NRA ownership, I already stocked up on ammunition today at the gun show.

Here is a little link with some facts about Obama's 2nd Amendment stance.

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

Wow, thanks for the heads up Bud that the sky is falling. Of course everyone should be walking/driving around with Assault Weapons. Teachers should have them, students should have them, they should be available in every college,university, hospital, medical facilities, old age homes, etc.

Here comes the great society according to Cold Zero. Woo hoo!

I think I'll stick with Obama thank you very much!

For anyone that believes guns are the most important issue in this campaign, well I just feel sorry for you.

I seem to recall other groups in the past stocking up with guns and ammununition but I can't quite remember their names? In any case they are all dead now so who cares?

Telcoman

[sumo357]

With Obama tapping Joe Biden as VP, its pretty much official, this campaign is totally Anti Gun and Anti Second Amendment. For you folks that aren't aware, Joe Biden helped craft the infamous 'Assault Weapons Ban.' I am sure that the guys in Fairfax Virginia were rejoicing when they heard his name come up. Time to renew my NRA ownership, I already stocked up on ammunition today at the gun show.

Here is a little link with some facts about Obama's 2nd Amendment stance.

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

right on brother. the democrats are always after our guns and we all know how useless that assault rifle ban was and the 10 round clip limit. rally round the familywith a pocket full of shells

[sumo357]

Wow, thanks for the heads up Bud that the sky is falling. Of course everyone should be walking/driving around with Assault Weapons. Teachers should have them, students should have them, they should be available in every college,university, hospital, medical facilities, old age homes, etc.

Here comes the great society according to Cold Zero. Woo hoo!

I think I'll stick with Obama thank you very much!

For anyone that believes guns are the most important issue in this campaign, well I just feel sorry for you.

I seem to recall other groups in the past stocking up with guns and ammununition but I can't quite remember their names? In any case they are all dead now so who cares?

Telcoman

[themadscientist]

Wow, thanks for the heads up Bud that the sky is falling. Of course everyone should be walking/driving around with Assault Weapons. Teachers should have them, students should have them, they should be available in every college,university, hospital, medical facilities, old age homes, etc.

Here comes the great society according to Cold Zero. Woo hoo!

I think I'll stick with Obama thank you very much!

For anyone that believes guns are the most important issue in this campaign, well I just feel sorry for you.

I seem to recall other groups in the past stocking up with guns and ammununition but I can't quite remember their names? In any case they are all dead now so who cares?

Telcoman

They were called minutemen and they were ready to fight an oppressive government; I see a lot of parallels. Oh and just FYI you can;t easily own a real "assault rifle" A semi automatic that looks like a real AK-47, A full auto AK-47, doesn't qualify as an "assault rifle" except to those determined to roll back the second amendment. You fail again Tel.

[rn79870]

There is very little room in this forum for personal attacks. The discussions get heated enough without taking them to a personal level. ALL negative comments aimed at another poster, however minor, will be deleted as soon as I see them.

[rn79870]

Bud, seriously, how can you equate anti-assault rifle with being anti-gun. Is an anti-machine gun law anti gun?

I've always supported responsible gun ownership but owning an assault rifle isn't a necessary exercise of that right. Especially one that can me modified with very little effort to be full rock and roll.

+1 Biden.

[Cold_Zero]

rally round the familywith a pocket full of shells

Nice reference man! Haven't heard that one in a while!

[Cold_Zero]

Bud, seriously, how can you equate anti-assault rifle with being anti-gun. Is an anti-machine gun law anti gun?

I've always supported responsible gun ownership but owning an assault rifle isn't a necessary exercise of that right. Especially one that can me modified with very little effort to be full rock and roll.

+1 Biden.

Oh Bob, you don't get off that easy. Because the refinements to the natorious 'Assault Weapons Ban' were instituted by your girl Feinstein.The AWB was the biggest piece of crap legislation that neither kept the infamous 'assault weapons' off the street, out of the hands of criminals nor put more cops on the streets to fight crime. We had an IPD officer shot and killed by an SKS during the years that the AWB was implemented. A lot of good that piece of legislation did to stop that crime.

Jimefam,You are allowed to associate with whom you please in this country. And being a gun owner that does not associate (fully support) with the NRA, in my book, does not cause me to look down on you. The NRA is not the only group in this country that speaks for gun owners. bud

[Cold_Zero]

Wow, thanks for the heads up Bud that the sky is falling. Of course everyone should be walking/driving around with Assault Weapons. Teachers should have them, students should have them, they should be available in every college,university, hospital, medical facilities, old age homes, etc.

Here comes the great society according to Cold Zero. Woo hoo!

I think I'll stick with Obama thank you very much!

For anyone that believes guns are the most important issue in this campaign, well I just feel sorry for you.

I seem to recall other groups in the past stocking up with guns and ammununition but I can't quite remember their names? In any case they are all dead now so who cares?

Telcoman

Telco,Think of Obama picking Biden in terms of Volleyball. This is a set for the NRA to spike the ball. I am sure that the 2nd Amendment will become an issue in the campaign. Something that helped GW get elected in 2004. Had Obama picked Evan Bayh, this would be a non issue.

Oh and in a perfect society, everyone would be armed to the teeth and properly trained to keep the government (Federal, State and Local) in check. But then again, I look to a country like Switzerland that has a low crime rate, yet has over 600,000 not semi automatic but FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons (typically a SIG 550) issued to its citizenry. I can vouch for this since my K-31 (1940 semi automatic) was issued to an Eric Rochat in Chavornay Switzerland.



If you could buy a SIG 550 from Switzerland though the Curio and Relics process when you remove the but plate, you would have the information of the Swiss citizen the rifle was issued to.

That is one of the reasons why Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland. Because the Suisse Government had to issue just 2 bullets to each citizen to kill everyone in the Wehrmacht. Hell we can't even secure our own border with a professional army and a gazillion federal agents in this country!



See, I don't have a problem with people owning (responsibly) a firearm for what ever reason (sport, hunting, defence). It is communists, socialists and you that apparently have problems with people lawfully owning firearms. You aren't in good company man...

bud

[Cold_Zero]

Now if you all will excuse me, there is an airshow in my backyard and I believe there is a F-22 flying around outside.

[rn79870]

Feinstein is a true and loyal American...(So I guess you really don't blame Biden after all for the ban.)

I recall a shootout between the LAPD and 2 crazed bank robbers in 1997 (98?). The LAPD had to borrow weapons from a gun store because their service revolvers were no match for the robbers AK47s. Yes, 2 morons with AK47 and body armor vs. the entire LAPD. They had easily converted their 47s to full rock and roll, which I understand is not all that hard to do to any assault rifle.

You're typically on top of the issues Bud, but your missing this one in a big way. Tell me again why the public needs assault rifles...... (my 2 cents)

[Jager]

aww CZ why did you have to pull out Switzerland... Thats like using a nuke on a mouse, its just unfair to the anti gun lobby....

as for the assualt weapons ban i have previously mentioned what it really was, and i will say it again, its the so called "ugly gun" law. the ban had nothing to do with removing the most dangeros guns, as those would be long range hunting rifles (whoops dems you tried for those but yeah.... good luck next time) anyone, anyone period is never going to be as accurate with a full auto weapon (of which only criminals have or very tightly controlled civilians do (read up on a class three license) my gun having a bayonet lug makes it no more dangerous since i can still hit something 200 yards out without it, but damn if that wasnt a reason to ban any new ones coming in to the country in the 90s.

the assault ban was the BIGGEST failure of the antigun lobby other then the national ballistics criminal database which WASTED BILLIONS of taxpayer money to collect shell casings of every legal gun and keep them on file incase they were used in a crime. the ballistic "fingerprint" is about as worthless as any idiot who can nick a barrel or swap an extractor etc (read ANYONE with 5 minutes and the internet) and i was happy when that died as well. though new jersey and California still think its a credible tool. too bad bob and telco your states are wasting your money on frivolous stuff in the millions of dollars price tag range eh. but thats a whole other discussion

obama already lost my vote with the social security and medicare/medicaid reforms and now this just proves how he isnt my choice of president.

[Jager]

Feinstein is a true and loyal American...(So I guess you really don't blame Biden after all for the ban.)

I recall a shootout between the LAPD and 2 crazed bank robbers in 1997 (98?). The LAPD had to borrow weapons from a gun store because their service revolvers were no match for the robbers AK47s. Yes, 2 morons with AK47 and body armor vs. the entire LAPD. They had easily converted their 47s to full rock and roll, which I understand is not all that hard to do to any assault rifle.

You're typically on top of the issues Bud, but your missing this one in a big way. Tell me again why the public needs assault rifles...... (my 2 cents)

actually bob, if the gun store hadnt kept their semi auto m16 copies around your police would have been outgunned by criminals...

so tell me again why legal citizens shouldnt have semi automatic versions of guns when its obvious criminals can get them all day long?

and feinstein is an idiot, there is a 1998 article that she was interviewed saying that she knew gun control and was trained and could carry concealed(one of California's few lucky ones with a permit) and she posed in front of all the reporters with an AK-47 variant with a HUGE magazine with the slide closed, and her finger on the trigger, and she kept pointing the barrel of (as far as any gun person would tell you a loaded ) gun at all the reporters, never one time treating the gun as a dangerous weapon or showing ANY training. that was in the newspapers with her smiling and on TV with her sweeping the crowd.

yeah shes a real bright one. anti gun as hell, but she owns a few and can carry them as she was stalked earlier in life. what a double standard.

as far as converting the guns to full auto, my understanding of the criminals was they bought on the criminal market a new receiver assembly which negated all of the manufacturers blocks(as they just removed those parts) and swapped in military hardware. IE NOT something a civvie could do without breaking the law.

sorry bob, balls still in your court

[rn79870]

I was wondering where you'd been Justin...I figured you'd be back for this one.

One could make the same argument for machine guns and bazookas too. Just because the criminals find a way to get (modify) them shouldn't mean we allow law abiding citizens the right to own them to defend themselves from intruders carrying bazookas.

Seriously, why does a sportsman, a hunter, a competition marksman need a assault rifle, or for that matter, even want one. I understand that there may be some desire to have them in collections, but that could be handled differently.

I'm sure you realize how many AK47s have been produced and how cheaply they can be had. Do they really make a good choice for an urban self defense? With 20+ round banana clips? You're our expert so you can answer these questions better than most of us.

[mcheddadi]

oh yeah! no gun = less "accidental" deaths ftw

[rn79870]

Now if you all will excuse me, there is an airshow in my backyard and I believe there is a F-22 flying around outside.

I knew the mosquitoes were big in that part of the country. I would have said B52.

[Cold_Zero]

Feinstein was so brilliant that after the North Hollywood Bank of America shootout (which Bob is referring to) she attempted to put through legislation at the federal level to ban the civilian sale and ownership of body armor. Good thing it never came to light. Because during the beginning of the Iraqi Invasion and the Insurgency that followed, the Army couldn't equip its soldiers with body armor. Soooooo, families of the soldiers were buying body armor state side and shipping it to their sons/daughters in Iraq. Had Feinstein gotten her way, there would have been US soldiers with out any body armor and a lot more killed in Iraq. Way to go Franken-Feinstein!

[Jager]

I was wondering where you'd been Justin...I figured you'd be back for this one.

One could make the same argument for machine guns and bazookas too. Just because the criminals find a way to get (modify) them shouldn't mean we allow law abiding citizens the right to own them to defend themselves from intruders carrying bazookas.

Seriously, why does a sportsman, a hunter, a competition marksman need a assault rifle, or for that matter, even want one. I understand that there may be some desire to have them in collections, but that could be handled differently.

I'm sure you realize how many AK47s have been produced and how cheaply they can be had. Do they really make a good choice for an urban self defense? With 20+ round banana clips? You're our expert so you can answer these questions better than most of us.

bob, do you know what the assault weapons ban really was? not tryign to be offensive here, nor really calling you out, but if you dont, please really look at it, its not that an ak-47 is available, its that the abn was a law against a gun because of its looks.

I have a hunting rifle with a plain wood stock that is infinately more destructive and can hold 20-50 rounds. its semi automatic, and its based on the m1 garad action. its called a ruger mini 30. fires the same bullet as the ak-47, you know what the abn did to that gun? they stopped making the over ten round magazines , but all the older ones were available, and any "ugly gun" before that time was available, just no new ones shipped in to civilians.

so the law didnt take away guns that were already here, it simply stopped law abiding citizens from carrying guns that looked ugly. while criminals 4 years after the ban had no issues getting the guns and the full auto parts and a duffel bag full of 90+ round magazines (several held 150+ rounds in them)

how does that add up bob? it doesnt.

as for bazookas or w/e you cant bring patently military explosive hardware into a debate about guns that look like military guns but DONT fire at full auto unless you break the law and do substantial modifications or smuggle in full auto parts.

your police force went in under gunned and severely out manned, that is their fault. every police officer in virginia has a rifle in their car that can penetrate body armor. its generally in the trunk lid. Id be more angry that your swat team took over an hour to arrive and your police force didnt think about the gun store for over an hour then what any civilians "might" do with a similar looking gun(thats an important point there you are uncomfortable with an ak-47 because you have seen a military version kill officers, not because you have probably shot a semi automatic one. or gone hunting or lived on a farm with coyotes or any of the guns numerous uses as defense and a hunting rifle(cheap and surprisingly accurate with a scope) this is the ignorance and fear anti gun lobbyists play off of).

[Cold_Zero]

I knew the mosquitoes were big in that part of the country. I would have said B52.

Uh no, http://www.indyairshow.com/

The Mt Comfort Air Show is literally in my backyard.

I saw/heard this guy flying around yesterday.

We went to the show last year and had the time of our lives. The Blue Angels were the best.http://www.indyairshow.com/par...itary

[Cold_Zero]

Jager,Didnt the ban at first target certain 'Militaristic looking weapons' like the UZIs, MAC-10s, AK-47s and AR-15s? When the manufacturers responded, then they refined the ban to go after certain features? Semi Automatic action, Bayonet Lug, Folding Stock, Flash Suppressor, Detachable Clip, Pistol Grip...

Bob,What is it a concern of yours, what type of weapons that people use to hunt with? Do you think Bow Hunters look down Long Rifle Hunters and say, "Why would you need a 30.06 to hunt deer? No, because it really doesn't matter what type of weapon hunters hunt with and I am against anyone that says, "You can only hunt with a Remington Model 700 or Winchester Model 70." Heck Remington has the R-25 and R-15 that is an AR-15 style rifles chambered in .223 Remington (which is exactly the same as the 5.45x45mm NATO, which is used in the M16 and its variants), 204 Ruger, 7mm-08 Remington, 243 Winchester or 308 Winchester (which is exactly the same as the 7.62x51mm NATO round). So there must be plenty of hunters that use military style rifles and calibers to justify companies making these rifles.

Then again, Bob comes from a state that says what style of firearms (specifically pistols) one can and cannot own. He is just a product of his home state of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Kalifornia. So it doesn't surprise me that Bob upholds certain populist freedoms and views, while demonizing freedoms, rights and views geared toward the individual that places less emphasis on the Government or Society to say what is right and wrong.

[rn79870]

There are serious problems in describing what an assault rifle is, and much of that is based on silly conception of what it looks like and whether it has a handle. I agree it's dumb, but it's a start. It's legislation in response to the NRA not policing itself. What if the NRA had taken a stance against assault rifle ownership. What if they had banned their use at any events (I don't know because I'm not a member). Silly, but necessary start on the path to make life safer.

I'm asking where you'd draw the line where ownership is clearly illegal in your opinion. Would you draw it at a semi auto assault rifle?What about a fully auto assault rifle? What about a Browining Ma Duece? You see where I'm going with this.

I know what a Ruger mini 30 is. It's a sweet rifle. I wanted a Mini 14 in .223 for a long time. But the Ruger is also a useful rifle for a sportsman. An AK47 isn't. An AR-15 isn't (I owned one for a while), it's a piece of crap for any serious shooting. So was my Winchester 94, but at least it was fun to shoot and I swear, watch the bullet arc to the target.

Assault rifles, no, not needed in my opinion.

[Jager]

bob tell a whole series of the ipsec shooting events that are classicc army and or militray semi auto guns. AR15s are extremely accurate. and while in VA you cannot hunt deer with it, its a varmit destroyer of the first order.

the NRA isnt a policing organization, it educates, its unfortunate that you cannot understand that any lobby or organization that says you cannot have x, because you "might" be dangerous doesnt work. the NRA advocates law abiding ownership even of full auto weapons (class 3 license)

i draw the line at NO weapon, if you are licensed by the government to own a specific weapons system, then I have NO reason to think you shouldnt have those weapons.

I know friends with full auto weapons legally and they are great people, the government control over them is extreme though. its just how it is to be legal. your failure to understand the myraid of hoops involved to have a class 3 full auto as a civilian, or explosives or even a bazooka (military collectors license and explosives license among others), just makes you look anti gun bob, and really close minded.

why is it that you have a problem with civilians owning the semi automatic versions of guns that criminals can use everyday regardless of what the government does.

CZ the ban was originally all semi automatic weapons firing certain "military calibers..."that ended up getting tossed due to the incredible number of hunting rifles they would have to go after, which sank it before it began.

Bob, show me stats where crime went down with the assault weapons ban,

fact is, it did not, criminals still got the same guns, and still shot people, civvies still could buy higher capacity guns or even the guns themselves, just no more were made or brought in (imported) for those 10 years.

so the law was a failure, it did nothing helpful except look good, a pat on the back against crime that didnt do anything against actual crime.

sorry bob, but diane feinstein failed you as a constituent, and i hope to god you guys get rid of her sooner rather then later.

oass an actual law like exile, it works and it does everything you say the NRA should do, It forces judges to put criminals away, and its mandatory, no plea deals and BS.

and before you say it, the NRA lobbied for the law to go national, your senator from california shot it down, amongst other democrats.

[Jager]

bob this is an assault rifle

An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine (not to be confused with a semi-automatic only replica) firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and high-powered rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armies, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful battle rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and SVT-40. Examples of assault rifles include the AK-47, the M16 rifle, the FAMAS and the Steyr AUG. Semi-automatic rifles, including commercial versions of the AR-15, and "automatic" rifles limited to single fire only, even though incorrectly classified in the United States as assault rifles by the now defunct 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, are not assault rifles as they are not selective fire. Belt-fed weapons or rifles with fixed magazines are also generally not considered assault rifles.

heres what classifies it exactly

The term assault rifle is a translation of the German word Sturmgewehr (literally meaning "storm rifle"), "storm" used as a verb being synonymous with assault, as in "to storm the compound". Sturmgewehr was coined by Adolf Hitler[1] to describe the Maschinenpistole 44, subsequently re-christened Sturmgewehr 44, the firearm generally considered the first true assault rifle that served to popularize the concept. The translation “assault rifle� gradually became the common term for similar firearms sharing the same technical definition as the StG 44. In a strict definition, a firearm must have at least the following characteristics to be considered an assault rifle:[2][3][4]

* An individual weapon with provision to fire from the shoulder. * Capable of selective fire. * Intermediate-power cartridge between pistol and traditional rifle. * Ammunition is supplied from a detachable box magazine. * Fires from a closed bolt with the breech locked.

The following features are commonly found on assault rifles, but are not exclusive to assault rifles, as those features are shared with many submachine guns, battle rifles, automatic rifles, machine guns, and semi-automatic rifles. These features are simply common on assault rifles, they do not affect whether or not a weapon qualifies as an assault rifle:

* Protruding pistol grip. * Muzzle device like a muzzle brake or a flash suppressor.

There are commentators who use the expression “assault rifle� more loosely to include other types of arms, particularly arms that fall under a strict definition of the battle rifle, or civilian semi-automatic off-shoots of military rifles for commercial or political reasons. Some militaries of nations outside of the English-speaking world also have a different definition of assault rifle. For instance, the analogous term in the Swedish Armed Forces is automatkarbin (literally "automatic rifle") which includes both assault rifles and battle rifles.

US army official manual on assualt rifles is also here

[rn79870]

So being anti-machine gun and anti-assault rifle ownership for private citizens makes me anti-gun? Is it really that black or white?

[Jager]

assault rifles are machine guns.... that is the military and common non US political definition. so why are you using a misnomer to spread bad information bob? what the "assault" weapons ban was did nothing to actual assault rifles, those are class 3 license only. it only tried to make people believe that common semi automatic weapons are as dangerous as full auto weapons.

ie they lied to the american public.

why are you still on that train? its going nowhere good.

[Cold_Zero]

Justin,Its propaganda. If you paint firearms with a militaristic connotation, then its easy to justify to the populous that the citizenry does not need to own them. What is ironic is that it doesn't work the other way around. Weapons designed to be used by the civilians that make their way into the Militarys' hands are not viewed in the same way. No one says,"Why do they need to use a Remington Model 700. That is a deer rifle."

[Qwerty1942]

This is ridiculous.

rn79870, why are you still on that train? If you stay on you're a fool.

[Jager]

Bud how you said it is what i was going for, I understand what they are doing, I was trying to force the issue that its exactly that. just waiting or wanting Bob to have to say it, or avoid saying it .