Is there such a thing as too stiff?

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PalmerWMD
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For handling that is, not for comfort (which we all know is terrible).

My S13 has new Tein's all around, KYB AGX's and a full polyurethane kit ( old bushings were split).

Car is like a dream on smooth pavement and handles awesome.And I am also enjoying the near zero lean/dive expreience.

But once I am at very high speed on anything, but the smoothest road ,it feels insecure bouncy)

I raced an M3 yesteday deep into the triple digits and while I felt I was winning, I >did< back off around 125 mph due to insecurity at that speed.

I suspect my current set-up will own on the AutoX, but should I replace anything with stock for better highspeed security?

Fred..:)


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corn322
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high speeds.. insecure bouncy...

I remember on my '90 when I got around 90-100 mph on the highway the front end felt VERY sensitive to steering inputs. might have been because I wan't used to going that fast... also that was before I got new TC bushings...

I believe there is such a thing as too stiff, even for handling. feeling how far the car is leaning (if any:) ), for me, along with other factors, lets me know how close the car is to the limits.

Nismo_Freak
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PalmerWMD wrote:For handling that is, not for comfort (which we all know is terrible).

My S13 has new Tein's all around, KYB AGX's and a full polyurethane kit ( old bushings were split).

Car is like a dream on smooth pavement and handles awesome.And I am also enjoying the near zero lean/dive expreience.

But once I am at very high speed on anything, but the smoothest road ,it feels insecure bouncy)

I raced an M3 yesteday deep into the triple digits and while I felt I was winning, I >did< back off around 125 mph due to insecurity at that speed.

I suspect my current set-up will own on the AutoX, but should I replace anything with stock for better highspeed security?

Fred..:)


That setup is soft... you'd more than likely be better off going with coilovers to solve the high speed issue as the higher spring rate will better the car's feel at speed.

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PalmerWMD
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Tha ks for all responses:

Alan:I probaly didnt do a good job describing my symptoms.When I have near zero squat/lean/dive it cant be too soft can it?:confused:

Also keep in mind this car is originally a XE (=light) and has been lightened further so a given stiffness will act stiffer on this then a loaded non-lightened car.

And it feels super stiff too, kinda reminds me of the valuation C&D recently gave the SRT-6 (they said great around track but high speed, too stiff makes bounce, describes my exact symptoms I feel.)

Its a bit stiffer now then when u drove it also new bushings all around that werent there before, this took a lot of the slop out of it.

And I always associuate bounce with stiffness.I can always test my theroy and add weights to the car and htne test high speed behavior, I guess.

Fred..:)

nab911
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Ride height is another thing at high speeds along with down force. If your taking turns or the like at 125mphs... you may need a shopping cart for the back of that car. At least a functional fiberglass wing. Something to keep the car sticking to the ground.

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Exar-Kun
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fred- stiffness depends on the surface and useage of the car.

10kg/mm springs work great on a highspeed/low deformaty track, but would bounce your car all around on normall roads at lower speeds.also, sometimes bounciness doesnt necessarilly have to do with spring rate, sometimes its dampers over dempening the springs, or too light a car and heavy wheels(when the wheels get pushed up by a bump, the springs "push back",,,,its complicated..if you want I can explain it in depth more)

also, some body roll/weight transfer is needed for optimal cornering on non-competition cars, but thats another debate.

also for "instability" at speed, get better tires number one, m car feels rock solid over 110mph with the rs-R's and AGXs set on 3/6 F/R...

and I do mean solid..better than my 300ZX felt.

-chet

chmercer
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maybe you could get a more agressive front air dam. but i agree with alan, tein springs are very squishy. have you ridden in any cars with higher spring rates? ive ridden in a few cars with agx's and prokit, feels like a total boat after riding in a car with coilovers.

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PalmerWMD
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They are still stiffer than stock right?And my car is lighter than stock which makes them effectively stiffer still.

When I drive sidewaysS13's car with stock springs/shocks it felt more stable at higher sppeds but less cpapble than mine at lower ones..

Am I going out on a limb by making a connection?

FRed..:)

Nismo_Freak
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PalmerWMD wrote:They are still stiffer than stock right?And my car is lighter than stock which makes them effectively stiffer still.

When I drive sidewaysS13's car with stock springs/shocks it felt more stable at higher sppeds but less cpapble than mine at lower ones..

Am I going out on a limb by making a connection?

FRed..:)


You needed to ride in my S14... too bad I sold it.

Structure240sx
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i've been thinking about the same thing lately. i just pruchased d2 coilovers brand new. i have 3.5,5,7,9 springs. i was going to go with a 9f/7r setup. after talking to a few people adn readiing this would it maybe be a better idea to go with a 7f/5r setup? my car is a daily driver that i take to drifting events 1-2times a month.

Nismo_Freak
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Structure240sx wrote:i've been thinking about the same thing lately. i just pruchased d2 coilovers brand new. i have 3.5,5,7,9 springs. i was going to go with a 9f/7r setup. after talking to a few people adn readiing this would it maybe be a better idea to go with a 7f/5r setup? my car is a daily driver that i take to drifting events 1-2times a month.


7/5 is good for you.

9 kgf/mm is pretty aggressive for a street spring.

aither
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just out of curiosity, what about racing on a glass smooth track? Is there such a thing as too stiff? 15 kg/mm, 20 kg/mm? I'm guessing that after about 10-12 kg/mm on an S13, there's not much more body roll to worry about, so there's no need to go more stiff. Maybe the differnce between the 12 and 18 kg/mm spring's compression is down to a mm or so. Ideally, I think I would like the feel of weak anti-roll bars, and very stiff spring rates for track use. Just guessing, but I think anti-roll bars react much differently to load then a spring/shock will.

Nismo_Freak
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aither wrote:just out of curiosity, what about racing on a glass smooth track? Is there such a thing as too stiff? 15 kg/mm, 20 kg/mm? I'm guessing that after about 10-12 kg/mm on an S13, there's not much more body roll to worry about, so there's no need to go more stiff. Maybe the differnce between the 12 and 18 kg/mm spring's compression is down to a mm or so. Ideally, I think I would like the feel of weak anti-roll bars, and very stiff spring rates for track use. Just guessing, but I think anti-roll bars react much differently to load then a spring/shock will.


Ideally on a smooth track you'd have a very small sway bar set to tune understeer and oversteer and run something to the effect of 13 kgf/mm spring rate. Spring rate depends on the weight of the car and a number of other factors.

If the spring rate is too hard you get zero roll, which actually lessens the amount of traction the outer loaded tires have resulting in skidding rather than turning. In something like a F1 car you have the additional force being applied to the tires for maximum grip from the extremely high amounts of downforce the car produces.

s13sr20chris
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this is interesting. chet will you proofread this for me? the reason to go with stiffer springs would bea)less travel for given load allowing a lower suspensionb)higher natural frquencywith this in mind we may not need to be very stiff on the street. q45tech has pointed out that lowering your car only nets you like a 1% gain in grip. thats if you manage to control the gain in body roll(typicaly) and dont throw the suspension geometry too far out of whack. with our short stubby control arms more than 1 inch of lowering is suposed to be bad due to suspension geometry. the way i see it, my car needs responsive shocks, bushings, and sway bars before it needs springs(oh and real tires too). when i get springs i want more to increase the natural frequency than to lower the car. crap, where can i find good stiff springs that only drop about 1 inch. please tell me if im wrong but i believe the reason i need a higher natural frequency is because whenever i make a sudden steering adjustment or go over a bump the chassis oscillations are quite slow and deliberate. i think a nice set of konis would help but am not sure about how much.

sorry to jack the thread fred! maybe this will help us both.

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scruffy63
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the eibach prokit drops the car around an inch and its very stiff too.

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Exar-Kun
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chris, you're right. Excessively stiff springs wont net you any gain in maximal cornering grip on the street, esspecially with street tires. you want some outer loading(as alan said), and for street driving, 3-5kg/mm is plenty stiff(50% to 150% stiffer than stock) depending on usage, tires, other mods, etc.

things people dont think fo also, is sway bars can act as springs, but in a different manner..the rule of thumb is that you dont want the sway bar controling body roll by more than 50%, bceause of its 'problems' versus stiffer springs, etc.

also, harmonics come into play of the human body, and you want the frequency to be about 1.5(IIRC) for oscillations, too much lower than that, the car will feel "like a marshmallow" to much higher and it feels like a rock.

other things to consider, a higher spring rate does more thanremove body roll, etc when you hit a bump, the wheels get pushed up, and via the spring thery push up on the body, the body, via gravity, pushes back down..forcing the spriing to compress, then push bac down on the suspension.

why is that important? because the ratio of sprung/unsprung weight and spring stiffness modifys how that process works.

the lighter the unpsprung assembly, the less work the spring has to do to keep the wheels in contact with the road(and the less you feel jounces on the road in the car body! bonus!)

this is one of the many reasons you hear people talking about the importance of unsprung weight savings.

this is also why if you lighten the chassis a lot, without lighteting the unsprung weight, you can get a much, much harsher ride feeling, with no change in spring rate.

and like fred noted, the ligheter the car, the stiffer the spring rate beacomes effectively, because there isnt as much weight to compress it.

*hew* forgive any tyops, I'm about to goto work.in a little bit of a rush, I'll come back and double check this tonight-chet

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hannibal
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Yes, suspension can be too stiff. Your springs are too stiff if the wheel is no longer able to follow the bumps in the road, but instead skips across them.

Q45tech
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You must tune the stiffness ratio [F to R] AND the shock damping ratio vs wheel base for the speed you wish to travel. to control pitch [pogo stick effect]

A Q 113.4" wheel base so at 60 mph [88f/s]////////1056/1133.4=0.107 secs.......or 9.32 Hertz @ 60 mph, 10.87 Hz @ 70 mph, 12.43 Hz @ 80 mph

Complicated engineering: the interaction when hitting a bumphttp://www.umtri.umich.edu/erd...k.pdfhttp://w ... /CarSimEd/

The softest spring that will keep the tires correct and in contact with road is always best as driver fatigue will always be lowest.

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Exar-Kun
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:withstup

yeah, what he said :)thanks dennis!-chet

JDMWhore
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I bow down to Mr. Super Mod. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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