Is Drifting Effecient?

[The Mic]

Well ive heard pros and cons on drifting. i guessed im biased on it bc im able to do it. What im wondering is Drifting really the slowest way through a corner? i believe that if you are good enough, you can be fast via drift, but what do i know.

[Rockenreno]

The fastest way from point A to point B is a striaght line. Does this answer your question?

If not, then let me help: drifting always has been and forever will be slower that the straight-line racing approach. There is a reason that you don't see drifting in NASCAR.

[AZhitman]

There you have it - but it's fun to watch!

[stray]

I think "Drifting" is a way overused term for showing off.

Race drifting consists of controlling the car's (proper racing) line through the corner by sliding the tail through use of the throttle. In certain forms of racing (rally, rallycross, spec miata, Gymkhana, any low-traction racing basically) this can be faster simply because it allows you to get on the throttle sooner. As long as youre still putting the majority of the power to the ground, its generally faster.

"Grip" and "Drift" are one and the same. elements used in one can be used to be better at the other.

http://www.club4ag.com

Look in the reference section. theres something in there about proper drifting for motorsports and competitions. If that doesnt explain it to you, nothing will.

Moto rules.

[j-z]

and fun to do!

[-HyJynX-]

Drifting will always be slower in most types of racing, Stray said it pretty well.

[Axel Grungy]

yeah just think about all the friction you are making when you drift. drifting is just showoff.

[PROJECTRB240SX]

ITS NOT ALWAYS TRUE THAT DRIFITING IS THE SLOWEST WAY AROUND A CORNER. HAVE ANY OF YOU GUYS RACED FORMULA SERIES FORDS OR MAZDAS OR EVEN WATCHED GT RACING? IF YOU WATCH CLOSELY ALOT OF THE GT DRIVERS DRIFT THE FIRST CORNER OF A SHARP S-BEND ONLY TO HAVE A STRAIGHT LINE EXIT SETUP UP FOR THE SECOND BEND. THERE ARE BENEFITS TO DRIFTING BUT ITS NOT THE DRIFTING YOU GUYS LOVE WHICH IS ALL SHOW AND WILD SLIDING. I KNOW WHEN I USED TO RACE FORMULA FORDS AND MAZDAS (BABY F1'S) I WOULD USE DRIFTING IN CORNERS TO SLOW THE COMPETITON BEHIND ME GIVING ME A FASTER EXIT ONTO THE STRAIGHT AWAYS TO PULL ON THE COMPETTITION. THERE IS DRIFTING IN NASCAR... WATCH THE ROAD RACING COURSES AND YOU'LL NOTICE THE LEAD DRIVERS LET THE REAR END LEAD THE FRONT ON SOME CORNERS ONLY TO HAVE THE PERFECT EXIT ON A FOLLOWING CORNER.DRIFITNG HAS ITS USES JUST ASK ANY PROFESSIONAL DRIVER, ITS KNOWING WHEN TO USE IT IS THE KEY.

[Rockenreno]

Stray and Project-I agree that your "controlled" approach has some benefits, but I don't really consider it drifting. "Drifting" as we have come to know it seems to consist of getting your tail out whenever possible, or at least for more than a second. Things like Rally racing are completely different... they don't drift, they just lose traction. Occasionally they'll pull the handbrake to do a 180 at a tight corner, but I don't consider that dirfting either.

Regardless, it is a matter of technicality in how you define drifting. The approaches you both described I don't consdider drifting because they are such brief losses of traction and the drivers aren't really trying to get their tails out too much, just a little. I have seen this in practice though, and it can be effective.

[Mr1der]

still thrashes tires though:D

[-HyJynX-]

There is a thin line between drifting and powersliding, anyone agree?

IMO, Drifting is just powersliding taken to the extreme(with some other elements)

[StrangeLove]

I agree with stray and project, ano certainly not with rock...

Drifting has its uses in track racing, but for the normal driver... useless

[masticatingcow]

There is a thin line between drifting and powersliding, anyone agree?

IMO, Drifting is just powersliding taken to the extreme(with some other elements)

Agreed. Drifting as we have come to understand it is the embellishment of powersliding and tactful oversteer seen on circuit road courses. It is to mountain road driving what drag racing is to city driving: an embellishment to the extreme of practical driving.

Maybe, before computer-controlled car systems were developed to maintain balance and traction through a turn, drifting may have been more practical. Maybe not. But either way, "grip" driving is faster... I don't care what you saw on Initial D.

[C-Kwik]

In Rally, drifting is purposefully used. Dirt has a very low amount of traction as the dirt gives. If you try to drive like you would on tarmac, you would run into gobs of understeer. Drifting techniques are used to help the car rotate and point the car in the direction of the turn. Spinning the tires basically claws at the dirt to help push it forward and actually turn the car. Think of it kind of like a boat's propeller through water.

As far as certain other types of racecars (F1, Indy) drifting will definitely be the slowest way. Drifting would disrupt the aerodynamics of the ground effects they rely on so much to produce the massive amounts of grip they get. Not sure what kind, if any, aerodynamic enhancements the Formula Fords/Mazdas use.

And there is a large difference between having a slight oversteer characteristic and drifting. Drifting involves forcing the rear end out and actively keeping it there. Having a car that tends towards a bit of oversteer does it naturally at the limits. It's common to see race cars set-up this way to enhance turn-in and keep the car pointed in the direction of the turn.

[Rockenreno]

In Rally, drifting is purposefully used. Dirt has a very low amount of traction as the dirt gives. If you try to drive like you would on tarmac, you would run into gobs of understeer. Drifting techniques are used to help the car rotate and point the car in the direction of the turn. Spinning the tires basically claws at the dirt to help push it forward and actually turn the car. Think of it kind of like a boat's propeller through water.

As far as certain other types of racecars (F1, Indy) drifting will definitely be the slowest way. Drifting would disrupt the aerodynamics of the ground effects they rely on so much to produce the massive amounts of grip they get. Not sure what kind, if any, aerodynamic enhancements the Formula Fords/Mazdas use.

And there is a large difference between having a slight oversteer characteristic and drifting. Drifting involves forcing the rear end out and actively keeping it there. Having a car that tends towards a bit of oversteer does it naturally at the limits. It's common to see race cars set-up this way to enhance turn-in and keep the car pointed in the direction of the turn.

Well said.

[stray]

But that "slight oversteer characteristic" is what drifting originally WAS. thats what it was called for years and years. Only recently has "drifting" become this huge oversteering, tire smoking, inefficient mess that you see at D1 and the like.

I love drifting as a sport. Its fun to do, fun to watch, dramatic, fast, and just a little dangerous. All essential elements in any good spectator sport.

No matter what you call it, using the rearend to control the car's line through the corner can be beneficial, even in "grip" racing. Using it to extremes is inefficient and slow, of course. the best way to seperate the two is this. If youre sideways before the coner and pointingat or just past the apex, youre race drifting. Thats the kind of drift that can be used in lowtraction racing to set the car up for the next corner or even to do things like compensate for dying brakes. Granted, in most motorsport, this will make you slower, but I have yet to see any kind of racing that involves turns where its not more efficient to use a small amount of throtle steer on the exit of a corner. you might not notice it, but its there. Watch touring cars, watch star mazda/specmiata, watch rally or any kind of vintage racing. Its all there.

Basically, if youre not in a full on Slicks-and-downforce racecar, drifting (and oversteer) have their place in getting you through a corner faster.

Competitive drifting just took the whole "race" element out and concentrated on what many drivers felt was the most fun part of driving a car- Massive oversteer!

[C-Kwik]

But that "slight oversteer characteristic" is what drifting originally WAS. thats what it was called for years and years. Only recently has "drifting" become this huge oversteering, tire smoking, inefficient mess that you see at D1 and the like.

I love drifting as a sport. Its fun to do, fun to watch, dramatic, fast, and just a little dangerous. All essential elements in any good spectator sport.

No matter what you call it, using the rearend to control the car's line through the corner can be beneficial, even in "grip" racing. Using it to extremes is inefficient and slow, of course. the best way to seperate the two is this. If youre sideways before the coner and pointingat or just past the apex, youre race drifting. Thats the kind of drift that can be used in lowtraction racing to set the car up for the next corner or even to do things like compensate for dying brakes. Granted, in most motorsport, this will make you slower, but I have yet to see any kind of racing that involves turns where its not more efficient to use a small amount of throtle steer on the exit of a corner. you might not notice it, but its there. Watch touring cars, watch star mazda/specmiata, watch rally or any kind of vintage racing. Its all there.

Basically, if youre not in a full on Slicks-and-downforce racecar, drifting (and oversteer) have their place in getting you through a corner faster.

Competitive drifting just took the whole "race" element out and concentrated on what many drivers felt was the most fun part of driving a car- Massive oversteer!

Throttle steer and drifting are two different things. Throttle steer involves changing the racing line by using the throttle. You can tighten or widen your line with some throttle, provided the car is set up correctly. You don't have to be drifting or oversteering at all to throttle steer. A slight oversteer condition creates a higher slip angle at the rear wheels which helps put some of the turning load on the rear tires. Most tires create maximum lateral grip somewhere around 8 degrees of slip. It's easy enough to get front tires to see this. Getting the rear to do the same is not quite as simple as the rear tires remain in a fixed position relative to the car. Drifting as is popular today is creating slip angles beyond the tire's maximum lateral grip. It will provide similar grip to one which is not being loaded as much. But when slip angles are high, you get a lot more heat. This is why driving smoothly is better than driving just beyond the limits of a tire. Heat.

[The Mic]

bah, drifting is just "an advanced form of understeering".

[Bubba1]

I disagree. An advanced form of understeer is no steer. As in you turn the steering wheel and you go completely straight.

I think what C-Kwik wrote is required reading.Ifyou're talking competitive drifting, which is what most of the young folks on this BB consider "drifting"nowadays, it's definition is "inducing oversteer for sytle points." But to a road racer, drifting is more of a tool to use depending on situation

[MainEvent212]

competitive drifting, is when you're power-oversteering before, through and after every turn, focusing on style, speed and control rather then split and lap times.

practical "drifting", or rather tactical oversteer, can be used in tight hairpins, tough S curves or just about any set of tight multi-direction turns, just to set up good angles for higher exit speeds

[SupraMKIII]

when are you going to show me your drifting skills mike

[SupraMKIII]

A better idea; why don't you go with me to an autocross or track day event to compare the quickness of drifting vs grip in REAL racing; since you don't want to go to do touge anymore.

[MainEvent212]

who are you talking to?

[Nismo_Freak]

who are you talking to?

[MainEvent212]

ahh, you're mike?

[skydragoness]

In Rally, drifting is purposefully used. Dirt has a very low amount of traction as the dirt gives. If you try to drive like you would on tarmac, you would run into gobs of understeer. Drifting techniques are used to help the car rotate and point the car in the direction of the turn. Spinning the tires basically claws at the dirt to help push it forward and actually turn the car. Think of it kind of like a boat's propeller through water.

As far as certain other types of racecars (F1, Indy) drifting will definitely be the slowest way. Drifting would disrupt the aerodynamics of the ground effects they rely on so much to produce the massive amounts of grip they get. Not sure what kind, if any, aerodynamic enhancements the Formula Fords/Mazdas use.

And there is a large difference between having a slight oversteer characteristic and drifting. Drifting involves forcing the rear end out and actively keeping it there. Having a car that tends towards a bit of oversteer does it naturally at the limits. It's common to see race cars set-up this way to enhance turn-in and keep the car pointed in the direction of the turn.

You have all been :owned by C-Kwik

[nametakennow]

No matter what, I still can't drift. Morever, I have this God-awful thing called torque steer to deal with, and it is even less useful that drifting.

Anyway, I'll chuck in my $.02. "Drifting" used to be simply kicking the rear end out a little to get yourself pointed in a better exit direction out of a turn. Essentially, it was what we now call powersliding (essentially, but not completely). Today, "drifting" has become an art form of it's own. The drifting we see and have grown to love is utterly inefficient 99% of the time. However, I believe it is possible to use drifting as a technique that, when combined with apexing, becomes incredibly useful on J-style turns, for instance. Larger curves, such as ones that are near U's could also benefit from a slight drift.

In the end, however, there is a reason you don't see the Audi R8 sliding around with smoke everywhere, but do see it in the winners circle at Le Mans for the past few years running, if I'm not mistaken.

[stray]

Throttle steer and drifting are two different things. Throttle steer involves changing the racing line by using the throttle. You can tighten or widen your line with some throttle, provided the car is set up correctly. You don't have to be drifting or oversteering at all to throttle steer. A slight oversteer condition creates a higher slip angle at the rear wheels which helps put some of the turning load on the rear tires. Most tires create maximum lateral grip somewhere around 8 degrees of slip. It's easy enough to get front tires to see this. Getting the rear to do the same is not quite as simple as the rear tires remain in a fixed position relative to the car. Drifting as is popular today is creating slip angles beyond the tire's maximum lateral grip. It will provide similar grip to one which is not being loaded as much. But when slip angles are high, you get a lot more heat. This is why driving smoothly is better than driving just beyond the limits of a tire. Heat.

My mistake, youre correct. My terminology was wrong.

you said it better than I ever could... beyond a certain slip angle, drifting is absolutely nothing more than a good time and a waste of tires. and its slow.

this is assuming a sealed surface, of course.

sliding the car a LITTLE (past about 8 degress of rotation is too much) is an essential part of going fast. Sliding it too much is inefficient and (under race conditions) stupid.

Clear enough now?

Can someone make this thread sticky? There are a lot of new drivers out there who would benefit a LOT from this info.

[Street Sleeper]

sigh, these posts just get ridiculous.

Drifting is a sport to create a slide and maintain it as long as possible in a most controlled fashion as possible. Drifting as a form of racing would be just what it is, loss of traction for a majority of the course. I wish people would really learn what drifting is instead of watching an episode of initial D then go out in their 240 and realize they can lose traction too. There is way more too it than that.

Those who mention professional drivers do it mean powersliding. And it is still inheirently slower than having grip. You are wasting power, gas, and tires. They may do it when they have to correct their corner exit angle because they were unable to hit the apex effectively, but its not the preferred method of cornering.

[BB Turbo]

Drifting is definitely efficient. Lets say you have a sh1t load of groceries, and you really dont want to push the heavy thing in the proper store cart etiquette. So all you do is exert more force than usual to the opposite side of which you are turning, which then f course initiates the shopping cart drift. You will have less of a load to push and still look cool/gay while shopping. If your really bored, you will notice you can make that shopping cart go into some insane angles. You can also try you hand at feint drifting and long slides. I wouldnt recommend the off floor drift (since that usually is carpet your sliding into, if its like wal mart) and it will slow you down and you will then need more force to get yourself out of that kind of situation. Currently, I have found Home Depot to be the best place to drift, since the floors are usually dusty, and the weird rubber compound on the tires they have are super hard. Also, next time your in a grocery store, try and move all of the weight up front, and keep the back end light. Another thing, dont try drifting a corner to fast, for it will make you tip over (damn those shopping carts have the stiffest suspension) and dropping your load of groceries, making yourself look stupid as well as the family members you might be with. So yes, in the department/grocery store, drifting is definitely efficient;)

btw, stay away from the newer shopping carts, since the tires on them havent really worn down too much.