Iraqi women maybe the ultimate victims of the war.

[heliochrome85]

trust me, that discussion has occured. my point was that I am open to the headscarf, and encourage it, but it remains HER decision to wear it, and i wont think any less of her if she doesnt. its a personal decision, and she is my wife, not my slave.

[szh]

I don’t blame the US for the act of a criminal element, but I blame the US for not foreseeing that the destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure would lead to civil chaos.

As humans, we are not able to predict the future with ease. Some people (the "experts) perhaps do it better than others, but nobody is perfect.

Yes, some people warned about what could happen in Iraq and they seem to be proven correct. But, for every expert, there are counter-experts (sit in on a legal case sometime to understand this ...), and it could just as easily have gone the other way too. The fact is that we truly did not know.

I don’t think GW lied to us, or deliberately set out to do this, but he was driving the bus when it crashed, and crash it did. Therefore it’s fair, in my opinion, to hold GW either directly or indirectly responsible for the current conditions in Iraq.

Like I have said, I did not like us going into Iraq in this Second Gulf War (Sidebar: the first was an easy one to support. We were defending Kuwait against an aggressor who acted first ... did you know that many Islamic countries sent troops to the Coalition to fight against Iraq?)

My belief with the Second Gulf War is that we went in for the wrong reasons - little of which has been proven to be correct. But, the reasons have been proven wrong in hindsight, not with foreknowledge! Our Intel was faulty, period.

But, the difficulty lies in the classic "hindsight is 20/20". Yeah, we did not do a good job of thinking ahead about what might be the outcome. Yeah, we could have planned better. Yeah, we might have done some things differently. Yeah, we might this, we might that ...

But, so what?

We ended up in a situation where no "solution" is going to be perfect. Plus, there are always people who are on differing sides of an argument - sometimes, one side will be "righter" than the other ... from their own perspective, usually.

So, I don't think holding GW responsible for the current "situation" - good or bad - in Iraq has any value or has any purpose that is helpful at the moment! Regardless of whether he was "driving the bus" or not. It is just too counterproductive - assigning blame only delays working on the solution, imperfect as it may be.

FWIW, did I agree with him at the time? No. But, asking for a perfect and clear outcome may simply have been too naive an expectation for anybody. It just happened to be GW, that we can now castigate ... using hindsight!

Didn’t Harry Truman have a sign on his desk about the buck stopping right there, on that desk in the Oval office?

Yeah. And, up to a point, I agree with this too.

But ... the problem is that this seems to get used for negative situations the vast majority of the time.

Why is that, btw?

The attitude seems to be that "the blame for all national problems always lie with the President" (forgetting that vetos of his actions are possible!), but he/she is not allowed to take the kudos for Good Stuff™ that also happens! (I don't mean GW per se, but any President/Leader ... whether Republican or Democrat is not the issue - we get mad if they try to take credit for successes). I don't get that.

Z

[szh]

trust me, that discussion has occured. my point was that I am open to the headscarf, and encourage it, but it remains HER decision to wear it, and i wont think any less of her if she doesnt. its a personal decision, and she is my wife, not my slave.

Good!

BTW, seeing the way you think in your posts, I pretty much knew that ... just wanted to underscore it for emphasis.

Z

[szh]

IMO, when any group who is used to "X" see's a group who does "Y" they wonder why. In the case of full burkhas I'm sure those who are not familiar would make an assumption that they must be forced to wear them as they find it rediculous based upon their own life style. Throw in the media reports of abuse and lack of rights and you have the 1+2=5 mentality of assumption. This happens quite often in the world and is not limited to women wearing Burkhas.

You are correct! It is all too easy - for both sides of an issue - to "assume".

I have seen the generalizations about the US too, by the way, when I visit Pakistan. I make it a point of correcting that misinformation when I am there.

Z

[heliochrome85]

its an important tenet to be positive images of our faith. i take it very seriously and try my best to give a positive picture for others to take away about my faith and culture. When i am abroad, i too try to dispel any, which there are few, misconceptions about the US. Truth be told, when I am there, syrians are very curious about life in the US and as a result, its a very common topic. its important that we all live our lives in a way so that strangers take away a positive image of ourselves.

[szh]

Interesting! When in Pakistan, I tend to find that some people do tend to have quite a bit misinformation about the US - certainly among those who have not travelled here.

Perhaps because there is much more of a direct political connection, or perhaps, the side-effects of the military situation there ... given the hunt for what's his name in the NW mountains of Pakistan.

[heliochrome85]

i thought he was living in NYC as a taxi cab driver. Or is it that everyone calls cab drivers there Osama, or Akhhhhhhmed....

seriously though, yeah, they treat me very well there. My US citizenship is definately not a detractant since a good amount of syrians want to come here. Sadly, the US is not too fond of Syria and so, very few get visas.

[szh]

Z, any chance you have a relative that might perhaps look like Queen Noor? Because I think she could TOTALLY change my POV...

Mine too! ... I better not let my wife see this post!

Z

[AZhitman]

Crap.

How the hell am I supposed to be an Ignorant Hilljack American with you two tag-teaming me?

Kidding... I've certainly had my eyes opened to a topic I obviously knew little to nothing about.

You guys make me want to research my heritage a little more... Sadly, my "ancestors" are displaced and dispersed... and worse.

[heliochrome85]

they are still there, waiting to be rediscovered.

i look forward to hearing your end of the story

[szh]

Sadly, my "ancestors" are displaced and dispersed... and worse.

All too true.

The Armenian massacres are little known ... and the memories of it (like the folks who suffered in the Holocaust) are fading fast, since that generation of people who were there are pretty much gone now (right? Since it happened in 1915, as I recall).

There are times when "Man's inhumanity to Man" problems (the Holocaust, Rwanda, the Killing Fields, Armenia, Bosnia, Nigeria ...within the last 100 years alone) just leave me saddened to the core.

Z

[AZhitman]

Freedom will NOT be silenced.

Seems our military efforts might be better applied to securing the freedoms of women and removing their murderers from society, rather than evil dictators:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...lskip

A sad, sad commentary on the continuing abuses of women's rights in the ME.

[szh]

Freedom will NOT be silenced.

Seems our military efforts might be better applied to securing the freedoms of women and removing their murderers from society, rather than evil dictators:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...lskip

A sad, sad commentary on the continuing abuses of women's rights in the ME.

This one is indeed a sad state of affairs! I am infuriated at that idiot of a "lawmaker" mentioned in the article. He needs to be taken out and given the same treatment.

I spoke to my sister about this earlier ... most women there are in an uproar about this. I hope it finds a resolution that improves the lives of the others still there.

Z

[AZhitman]

I certainly didn't post this as an "I told you so", but the impression I was left with after Tariq's brilliant post was that women have a better lot in life in the ME than even America...

Our women are not in danger of being executed for not marrying properly.

This is a travesty. Where is the international outrage? Where is the pressure to bring those who participated to justice? Where is N.O.W. and the rest of the womens' rights groups?

Oh, I remember - They're too busy gossiping about the GOP VP candidate's daughter's pregnancy.

[rn79870]

This is a travesty. Where is the international outrage? Where is the pressure to bring those who participated to justice? Where is N.O.W. and the rest of the womens' rights groups?

NOW is still healing from the insult to their intelligence McCain delivered last Friday.

[AZhitman]

We're having a serious discussion on international affars and human rights here, if you don't mind, Bob.

There's plenty of other topics to troll and fling partisan poop in.

[szh]

I certainly didn't post this as an "I told you so", but the impression I was left with after Tariq's brilliant post was that women have a better lot in life in the ME than even America...

Nopw, not always, unfortunately. Some of the backwoods areas in Pakistan, for example, are still hotbeds of violence against women.

But, at least, the local uproar has started. How much they will succeed is still unknown ...

Z