I need some help deciding on the size of injectors required to support 400+whp using e85 fuel.
From my calculations i came up with 1000cc to be the range. But id like some added help just to confirm. Also, what are good quality brand injectos to suit?
Modified by NUT-CSE at 8:15 AM 5/30/2009
Injector sizing for e85???
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r34 gtr
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Huge. You need 750cc/min to scrape 300hp, 1000cc/min to grace 370hp or so. I would go with 1200cc/min MINIMUM, probably 1600cc/min just to have a little head room.
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The_Chosen_One
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Heres some good info.
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm
Heres the E85 Injector chart
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm
Heres the E85 Injector chart
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
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The_Chosen_One
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Re: (The_Chosen_One)
somone a while back told me general rule is pick the usual injector size you would chose to run a given hp and add 35% of its size to it, and thats what you need for E85. I dunno how correct that is.
Re: (NUT-CSE)
Nah just set the idle higher..
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float_6969
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Figure out what size injector you need for gasoline. Then buy one about 30-35% bigger.
Bosch has a new 1000cc injector that is AWESOME!!! We are using it on my friends S14 SR with E85 and an SDS EM4-F. I couldn't believe how steady the idle was for such a big injector. If you build a pump setup to handle the extra pressure and still flow fuel, you can run the fuel pressure at 100psi and it turns the injector into a 1500cc injector and it's still very reliable.
Bosch has a new 1000cc injector that is AWESOME!!! We are using it on my friends S14 SR with E85 and an SDS EM4-F. I couldn't believe how steady the idle was for such a big injector. If you build a pump setup to handle the extra pressure and still flow fuel, you can run the fuel pressure at 100psi and it turns the injector into a 1500cc injector and it's still very reliable.
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rn240sx
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Re: Injector sizing for e85??? (NUT-CSE)
I did 415 whp on 615cc inj on E85 with 18 psi on a 60-1 ka-t....
With E85 u need roughly 30% larger inj's but you can compensate MOST of that loss by cranking up the *timing* for the same amount of boost..
With my jwt ecu & 100 octane race gas, i did 370 whp at 18 psi on 10 deg timing, swapped over to emanage blue and went with full E85, stayed at 18 psi and just cranked the timing way up for a total of 20 deg wot and did 415 whp and maintained a smooth 12.5 afr...
With E85 u need roughly 30% larger inj's but you can compensate MOST of that loss by cranking up the *timing* for the same amount of boost..
With my jwt ecu & 100 octane race gas, i did 370 whp at 18 psi on 10 deg timing, swapped over to emanage blue and went with full E85, stayed at 18 psi and just cranked the timing way up for a total of 20 deg wot and did 415 whp and maintained a smooth 12.5 afr...
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rn240sx
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Re: (NUT-CSE)
Worth the hassle.... imo, heck no. The ONLY E85 station close to me is 24 miles away and well WORTH the drive and its only $1.68 per gallon.
What gains would you get..?? if u do a direct swap from pump to E85... NOTHING, all ur gains are in tunning..!!!
The benifits of E85 allows u 2 run a bit leaner = more power and to crank the timing up = more power....
I tunned for 11.5 when i was on race gas and when i swapped over to E85, i have seen it get as lean as 13 (just from me self tuning on the street when i swapped over to emanage from jwt) on the wideband and ZERO knock. I ran 12 psi on a 60-1 with STOCK 24* timing and NO knock...
granted i didnt leave it there, now im at 18 psi, 20 deg wot timing, 12.5 afr's and ~415 whp depending on outside temps....
I love E85 and i wont go back to $8 / gallon 100 octane unless they shut that E85 down... Plus on cold start ups, E85 has that nice sweet smell to it and not to mention my under hood temps are so much lower even after 5-6 full pulls at 18 psi.... This stuff is GREAT..!!
What gains would you get..?? if u do a direct swap from pump to E85... NOTHING, all ur gains are in tunning..!!!
The benifits of E85 allows u 2 run a bit leaner = more power and to crank the timing up = more power....
I tunned for 11.5 when i was on race gas and when i swapped over to E85, i have seen it get as lean as 13 (just from me self tuning on the street when i swapped over to emanage from jwt) on the wideband and ZERO knock. I ran 12 psi on a 60-1 with STOCK 24* timing and NO knock...
granted i didnt leave it there, now im at 18 psi, 20 deg wot timing, 12.5 afr's and ~415 whp depending on outside temps....
I love E85 and i wont go back to $8 / gallon 100 octane unless they shut that E85 down... Plus on cold start ups, E85 has that nice sweet smell to it and not to mention my under hood temps are so much lower even after 5-6 full pulls at 18 psi.... This stuff is GREAT..!!
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float_6969
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I won't run I high performance street car on anything else. It's too cheap and works WAY too well.
I'm in Kansas, so this stuff is VERY easy for me to get. IIRC we have at least 4 stations in town that sell it, and Topeka is NOT a very big town.
As was stated before, you really have to tune the car to see the gains. Plan on running much closer to stoich and adding A LOT of timing. I have yet to hear my car, or my friends that we converted knock since the conversion. I'm sure it's possible, but I think it would take a lot of boost, very lean, and a lot timing.
I'm in Kansas, so this stuff is VERY easy for me to get. IIRC we have at least 4 stations in town that sell it, and Topeka is NOT a very big town.
As was stated before, you really have to tune the car to see the gains. Plan on running much closer to stoich and adding A LOT of timing. I have yet to hear my car, or my friends that we converted knock since the conversion. I'm sure it's possible, but I think it would take a lot of boost, very lean, and a lot timing.
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rn240sx
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Re: (float_6969)
very true.. this stuff is great and its very $$cheap$$..float_6969 wrote:I won't run I high performance street car on anything else. It's too cheap and works WAY too well. but I think it would take a lot of boost, very lean, and a lot timing.
ive heard stories from guys running this stuff while on the dyno seeing the a/f mixture lean out from pump failure's to missing a section of the inj maps and seeing the wideband lean out to 15-16 on the wideband under 25+ psi and no sign of knock at all...
yea u loose ~30% of ur total inj capacity, but most of that can be gained back by hitting that sob with more timing...
heck one guy is on stock ka compression, running a 57 trim at 27 psi, tuning at 13 afr's and hitting the motor with 26 deg timing and NO KNOCK.... daily drives the car and till this date he says its still showing 175 psi compression across all 4 cyl....
how much is E85 over where ur at..?? Cause here it just went up to $1.95 from $1.76
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croustibat
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Re: (rn240sx)
Please people, when you dont know DONT answer ...
750cc injectors are WAY enough, i know a 430+HP e85 CA18DET with these and they are far from being maxed ...
e85 does NOT allow you to run leaner ... you need to run a lot RICHER, stoich is around 9 for e85, where it is 14.7 for standard fuel, and you should aim for 6.5 when on full load. When you see an AFR of 12 using e85, you are in fact at "stoeich minus 2.7" . A wideband AFR sensor is linear and does not care about the fuel used; it measures lambda. Lambda is then multiplied by 14.7, so using e85, you will have the same kind of numbers as with standard fuel.
It does allow you to get rid of knock, and setting very agressive ignition timing, as it has 105 octane, it will cool the engine better as you inject more. The problem is, if you take advantage of what it allows, you risk overheating your engine without knowing it (you would get knock with standard fuel to tell you), so monitor your EGT.
Simply put, a turbo engine tuned to use e85 (with bigger injectors and fuel pump) can pump 10 to 20% more HP, without upping the boost. And it DOES allow to up the boost, too
750cc injectors are WAY enough, i know a 430+HP e85 CA18DET with these and they are far from being maxed ...
e85 does NOT allow you to run leaner ... you need to run a lot RICHER, stoich is around 9 for e85, where it is 14.7 for standard fuel, and you should aim for 6.5 when on full load. When you see an AFR of 12 using e85, you are in fact at "stoeich minus 2.7" . A wideband AFR sensor is linear and does not care about the fuel used; it measures lambda. Lambda is then multiplied by 14.7, so using e85, you will have the same kind of numbers as with standard fuel.
It does allow you to get rid of knock, and setting very agressive ignition timing, as it has 105 octane, it will cool the engine better as you inject more. The problem is, if you take advantage of what it allows, you risk overheating your engine without knowing it (you would get knock with standard fuel to tell you), so monitor your EGT.
Simply put, a turbo engine tuned to use e85 (with bigger injectors and fuel pump) can pump 10 to 20% more HP, without upping the boost. And it DOES allow to up the boost, too
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float_6969
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You just beat me to what I was going to say.
EVERYONE NOTE THIS!
When you stick a car converted to E85 on a wideband, it is going to read like it is running on gasoline, but those AFR's are not correct!. As croustibat said, widebands actually output a Lambda signal. If you don't know what that means then let me explain.
Lambda is actually the output that all oxygen sensors output. When we speak about AFR's it is specific to the fuel that we are using. For example, If our wideband sensors outputs 2.5v at a stoichiometric, then our gauge will show 14.7 if the gauge was calibrated for gasoline. Now if we instead run the motor at stoichiometric on propane, the wideband will still output 2.5v, and the gauge will still show 14.7, but our ACTUAL AFR is 15.5, OR if we do this with methanol, our ACTUAL AFR is 6.4. The gauge still shows 14.7 because it was calibrated for gasoline.
So this being said, you DO need bigger injectors, but because of ethanol's properties, you can run leaner mixtures than you would with gasoline, but you're still much richer than you are with gasoline, regardless of what the gauge says.
What I did with my car was to simply get a cheap Autometer gauge that doesn't have a digital readout. The color of the LED's are still appropriate because it's simply a Lambda gauge. I was able to do this because of the Innovate LC-1 wideband I use has a programmable output that I configured to run that gauge. And if I change fuels I can see the effect because it changes the lambda output and shows up on the gauge.
EVERYONE NOTE THIS!
When you stick a car converted to E85 on a wideband, it is going to read like it is running on gasoline, but those AFR's are not correct!. As croustibat said, widebands actually output a Lambda signal. If you don't know what that means then let me explain.
Lambda is actually the output that all oxygen sensors output. When we speak about AFR's it is specific to the fuel that we are using. For example, If our wideband sensors outputs 2.5v at a stoichiometric, then our gauge will show 14.7 if the gauge was calibrated for gasoline. Now if we instead run the motor at stoichiometric on propane, the wideband will still output 2.5v, and the gauge will still show 14.7, but our ACTUAL AFR is 15.5, OR if we do this with methanol, our ACTUAL AFR is 6.4. The gauge still shows 14.7 because it was calibrated for gasoline.
So this being said, you DO need bigger injectors, but because of ethanol's properties, you can run leaner mixtures than you would with gasoline, but you're still much richer than you are with gasoline, regardless of what the gauge says.
What I did with my car was to simply get a cheap Autometer gauge that doesn't have a digital readout. The color of the LED's are still appropriate because it's simply a Lambda gauge. I was able to do this because of the Innovate LC-1 wideband I use has a programmable output that I configured to run that gauge. And if I change fuels I can see the effect because it changes the lambda output and shows up on the gauge.
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rn240sx
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Re: (croustibat)
sorry for the LATE response but i just ran across this again and got my attention..So ur saying that when my wideband reads 12 flat on E85... that is TOO lean..?? and that i should aim for 6.5 on the wideband..??croustibat wrote:e85 does NOT allow you to run leaner ... you need to run a lot RICHER, stoich is around 9 for e85, where it is 14.7 for standard fuel, and you should aim for 6.5 when on full load.
then you mention the risk of overheating the motor..?? Im sorry but my underhood temps have went down drastically since ive been on E85 even after 5-6 full 3rd and 4th gear pulls on 18 lbs (400+ whp)... My water temps dont rise as hi under boost anymore since ive been on E85...
Unless im reading and understanding this wrong, you want us to tune the wideband to read 6.5 under wot with E85..?? if thats the case then id max out my inj at 8 lbs...
help me out here....
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float_6969
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Read my post above.
Basically you need to tune the car so that your wideband (which is calibrated for gasoline) reads about 12:1. Just be aware that the actual AFR isn't 12:1, but more like 6 or 7:1.
As for the overheating, I've found just the same as you, that the motor runs cooler and the under-hood temps go down.
Also, my experience doesn't coincide with the info on the megasquirt site as far as injector sizing is concerned. I've found that more of a 30-35% increase in fuel injector size over what you would need for gasoline is needed.
I think they've done this to cover their bases. Remember, Even though it takes more E85 to get to the same lambda as gasoline, you don't need to run (of a lambda measurement (NOT ARF) as rich with E85 as you do with gasoline under load
Basically you need to tune the car so that your wideband (which is calibrated for gasoline) reads about 12:1. Just be aware that the actual AFR isn't 12:1, but more like 6 or 7:1.
As for the overheating, I've found just the same as you, that the motor runs cooler and the under-hood temps go down.
Also, my experience doesn't coincide with the info on the megasquirt site as far as injector sizing is concerned. I've found that more of a 30-35% increase in fuel injector size over what you would need for gasoline is needed.
I think they've done this to cover their bases. Remember, Even though it takes more E85 to get to the same lambda as gasoline, you don't need to run (of a lambda measurement (NOT ARF) as rich with E85 as you do with gasoline under load
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rn240sx
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Re: FN-QR (float_6969)
ok, NOW ur making more sense than what i read above Quote »I've found that more of a 30-35% increase in fuel injector size over what you would need for gasoline is needed.[/quote]yea ive got +32 on my setupQuote » Remember, Even though it takes more E85 to get to the same lambda as gasoline, you don't need to run (of a lambda measurement (NOT ARF) as rich with E85 as you do with gasoline under load[/quote]yea ive got mine tunned to as close to 12 flat as i can.. but some have went into the mid 13's and no detonation.... oh well to each his ownfloat_6969 wrote:Basically you need to tune the car so that your wideband (which is calibrated for gasoline) reads about 12:1. Just be aware that the actual AFR isn't 12:1, but more like 6 or 7:1.
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float_6969
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Honestly, unless you're running a lot of boost, it won't detonate. Don't be afraid to lean it out either. Get that thing on the dyno and start pulling fuel out and see what happens. If it gains power, then let it run leaner than 12:1 (on your wideband). Remeber that since the actual AFR is much lower than what your gauge is reading, you're cooling the intake charge down a lot more than you would with gasoline. This PART (not the only) reason that you can run leaner and more timing with E85.
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r34 gtr
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I would club a baby seal for a gas station with E85 here in town. Closest one is B'Ham, 100 miles away.
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Patrick_S13,5
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float_6969
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I've been running E85 on my motor for about 2 years and tuned 3 cars with it.
What duty cycle were the injectors running on that car? What Lambda/AFR? What turbo? You're not really telling us much with that post.
What duty cycle were the injectors running on that car? What Lambda/AFR? What turbo? You're not really telling us much with that post.
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rn240sx
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Re: FN-QR (r34 gtr)
well get urself a drum and a pickup truck and go get some.... thats what most people do when they are just a bit too far from E85... (driving there, filling up & wasting half the tank getting back home)...r34 gtr wrote:I would club a baby seal for a gas station with E85 here in town. Closest one is B'Ham, 100 miles away.
Re: Injector sizing for e85??? (NUT-CSE)
800cc is more than enough for 450 whp ON E85so much BS in this thread
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float_6969
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I'm also finding that injectors don't need sized as large as they should on paper in real life.
We did 300whp on S15 SR with stock injectors, FMIC, 3" exhaust, stock O2 housing, and standalone on E85. That shouldn't work on paper, but it worked in real life. That was at about 95% duty cycle though.
I have 555's in my car and I initially thought they would barely work for that power level, but I'm now thinking they'll be more than enough.
We did 300whp on S15 SR with stock injectors, FMIC, 3" exhaust, stock O2 housing, and standalone on E85. That shouldn't work on paper, but it worked in real life. That was at about 95% duty cycle though.
I have 555's in my car and I initially thought they would barely work for that power level, but I'm now thinking they'll be more than enough.
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