INFINITI: FALLING BEHIND

[Larz]

While getting an oil/filter change and full inspection, I wandered off to the showroom. I found there a brand new Q70 3.7 with every option available. I was put off by a couple of things.
The interior is relatively unchanged since 2006 - albeit minor appearance changes and the double hump instrument cluster. Nothing new or upgraded - just looks different
Still a 90's style moon roof when even cheap cars have had panoramic roofs for years.
No available WiFi
No heads up display available
The same upgraded Bose surround audio system with low watts - now 10 years old
Same small touch screen display as in my 2009 still without dual view (passenger can watch DVD while driver sees NAV, etc
Rear cup holders. (even my 09 has theater, drop down screen, temp controlled, reclining rear seats, multiple controls in arm rest)
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The Jag XF Prestige at $300 less will get you all the Q70 options PLUS:
Higher grade Meridian surround with 17 speakers/ 825 watts /16 amped channels- including HD and XM radkio
Full LED headlamps with AFS and auto high beam plus power wash
3G Wifi hotspot
Morzine headliner and elite taurus leather seating
Automatic soft door close
Temp controlled seats front AND rear
Heated windscreen and washer jets
NAV via connect that upgrades automatically
Panoramic roof with sliding glass and electric shade
Heads Up display that includes speed, NAV guidance , road sign detection, and laser cruise control
Similar engine but with mopre torques, and better MPG: 20/city and 30/hwy
Power trunk open and close
Torque vectoring braking
Power port and USB ports, WiFi hot spot, AUX input, and bluetooth
5 yr / 50,000 mile warranty with complimentary maintenance and 24-hour roadside assistance included
0-60 in 5.2 sec / top speed 121mph
8-speed gear box
10.2 inch dual view touch screen
3-position memory seats
Acoustic layered glass
Blind spot plus rear traffic monitoring and cross-traffic monitoring
Front and rear park assist
Here is the brochure, sent to me by my local dealer:
http://www.jaguarusa.com/Images/9064395 ... 223924.pdf

And Inifniti wonders why they only sell a few cars per year in the UK and Germany. It's not a mystery to me. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my M35, but why would I consider buying a 2016 when not only are there only 2-3 significant upgrades over my 09, but actually FEWER options available on the newest model? Not to mention less warranty with NO maintenance is included.
If Infiniti want to be a serious competitor in its market, they need to step up and keep up with the competition. I seriously doubt I will buy another Infiniti when the time comes to replace mine if Infiniti stays so far behind other cars in it's class.

[Jesda]

Infiniti was almost phased out after the global recession. It had a decent run in the mid to late 90s and early 2000s then petered out from a lack of investment.

It's a brand with no identity, no purpose, no raison d'être. Being the "sporty alternative to Lexus" is now meaningless as Lexus has pursued performance.

That's too bad because the cars are pretty good.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Sadly, Jag seems to have eliminated the AJ V8 from all "standard" XF trims, and it likely won't be back until the XFR-S returns (probably later this year). You can still get a VK V8 in the Q70, and it comes in a LWB model which nobody else seems to have enough brains to offer in the US.

Make no mistake, though: a V6 XF is still a better car in every way than a V8 Q70. But in a car from this segment, I want 8 cylinders AND boost, not one or the other.

[Larz]

That's a great point. I wasn't even thinking about the Q70L or the 5.6 V8. The Q70L is just a regular Q70 with a couple inches of leg room - nothing is different or better than the standard Q70. For that reason alone, Inifniti loses again. The Jag XJL has it beat in the dark, but the XJ is also about $20,000 more than the Q70L. Personally, I wouldn't want a V8 in either car. I'm hoping that the agreement Infiniti made with Mercedes will include the addition of a super charged or turbo charged V6 to meet the need for speed and power.

[BusyBadger]

Being the "sporty alternative to Lexus" is now meaningless as Lexus has pursued performance.

Only thing I can think of that some the Infiniti lineup has, or at least had, over Lexus is the option to row your own gears.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Also V8s without timing belts.

[RicerX]

My thing here is this - give it some time. Infiniti is in the middle of revising the entire lineup one car at a time. They know it's do or die with this generation of vehicles. If you want to measure where Infiniti is heading, look at the Q50 Red Sport 400. The initial reviews are overwhelmingly positive. They've listened to the criticisms of the first Q50 and make marked improvements. The Q60 coupe is completely stunning and will be a solid performer. This motor is necessary to facilitate the transition to the full next gen lineup. Boosted motors are the new gold standard. The Q50 RS400 will destroy the 340i M Sport in price and performance, mark my words. Anything Lexus has out in that segment is soon to be an afterthought. (I test drove a Lexus IS350 F Sport before buying my '15 Q50S and the Q50 just felt so much better at getting power to the ground - it felt ferociously faster and torquier than the Lexus. The new boosted Q50 is going to give the RCF trouble...)

Yep, the Q70 is long in the tooth, as is the QX80 and QX70. They're working on it. The Jag just came out last year, and if we're going to nitpick, for a car that was just revised... why the fart is there 3G in it? I would not even remotely bother with 3G - I'd just activate my personal hotspot on my iPhone and use 4G LTE via Verizon. I'm already paying for it - why would I pay to add an option that's inferior to the technology already in my pocket and ready to go at the swipe of a button?

Fuel economy between the Jag and the Q50 is a wash... 20/30 vs 20/29 on the Infiniti. Also, a couple of the options you mention are readily available in the Q50. The M/Q70 is barely larger (if at all) seating wise and trunk wise. The Q50 is available with upgraded Bose (I'm not sure if it matches the specs of the Jag, but I can tell you Bose Centerpoint is wonderful in my car). Adaptive cruise control is available. Active Chassis Control does similar things to the Q50 that torque vectoring braking does on the Jag... they're really not that far apart imho.

I mean, really... it's ok if you just LOVE the Jag They're beautiful cars! But Infiniti isn't as far behind as you think. I'd look hard at a decked out Q50 as a better benchmark.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I've never been impressed with any automotive Bose product, ever.

[BusyBadger]

The Q60 coupe is completely stunning and will be a solid performer. This motor is necessary to facilitate the transition to the full next gen lineup. Boosted motors are the new gold standard.

I'm hoping this is what finds its way into the next Z, I can't imagine that it would be anything but this powerplant.

One of the only things really holding me back from picking up one of the current Nismos with the duck tail is hoping that the next iteration of the Z is spot on. And the mill in the 2017 Q60 would go a long way in doing just that.

[elwesso]

I personally lost a lot of interest in what Nissan/Infiniti offered when they stopped offering a manual trans, but I'm weird like that. I really like the Q50, it's a nice looking car, I just wish they had a shift-it-yourself version, especially with the new engine. Q50s are a tremendous value on the used market, you can find 2 year old ones for low 20k

All of Lexus' stuff is so overpriced that if others start making stuff as good for way less money... You even get more car for the money out of Audi which is saying something (as those have always been overpriced too, but at least you get AWD).

[MinisterofDOOM]

I dunno...

I feel like Infiniti checks the boxes just fine, but the cars lack that something. There's a LOT I like about 'em. But I'd never actually buy one. I think the M56/Q70 LWB is a great-looking, very well-specced car. But next to an XF or XJ or 5 series or A6/7 it's just not enticing.

[szh]

I feel like Infiniti checks the boxes just fine, but the cars lack that something.

I was looking forward to the Eau Rogue ... till they killed it.

Would have been a seriously fast luxury car!

Z

[Bubba1]

The Eau Rogue had a chance to compete with BMW, but killing it was just another bad decision Nissan made with Infiniti. I just received the Consumer Reports annual auto issue. Ininiti's big decline is well documented. 10 yrs ago, they were consistently ranked among the top 5 brands. This year, they are ranked #22 out of 30, with an overall predicted reliability rating below average, and just 20% of their models were recommended. It's depressing that Nissan let this brand flounder so much.

Who finished below Infiniti?
23. GMC
24. Cadillac
25. Dodge
26. Chrysler
27. Land Rover
28. Mitsubishi
29. Jeep
30. Fiat

[szh]

It's depressing that Nissan let this brand flounder so much.

Yes, indeed. Makes me wonder if my next car is going to be an Infiniti or something else ...

I was looking at the Q70L as a possible replacement for my current 2003 M45, but am not sure if that is the right car for the long run either.

Z

[MinisterofDOOM]

I kind of feel like after the Renault takeover, Nissan got so caught up in differentiating Infiniti from Nissan that they forgot to select a direction along the way. Some models were BMW-chasers, others were Lexus-chasers, others were just slightly more upscale Nissans that didn't really fit in an existing luxury spot (G20). There was no real common thread to the brand.

'90s Infinitis were a random amalgam of older Nissan models recycled from other markets to appear like a whole brand, but it never really worked. The 1st gen Q45, M30, J30, and G20 all felt completely different. And when the original M45 came along, alongside the 2nd and third generation Q45s, there was so little differentiating them conceptually that most buyers probably had no idea what Infiniti was doing.

Then, when they finally built a hit (the G35) they got so carried away with it that they forgot to keep the rest of the brand advancing. The 2nd-gen M45 was meh, the 3rd gen Q45 was interesting but sort of a car nobody asked for. The FX was a great car that somehow nobody seemed to know existed--strange, considering how much more interesting it was than its contemporary crossovers.

The last generation of cars before the DeNysschen name change nonsense was definitely the most cohesive the brand had ever felt, but it was also the most generic. When they finally started to find a direction, it was one that wouldn't carry them very far (the easy direction: just copy the Germans except not enough to be meaningful).

I think the issue now is that they're trying to be too many things at once. Not really copying the Germans has failed, so they're trying to copy the Germans AND the Japanese AND the Americans and it's just too many directions at once. The cars do a lot of things, but none of them any better than anyone else.

What made early Infinitis appealing was character: strengths in balance of weakness. If you're not willing to pursue strength at the risk of weakness, you aren't going to achieve much of anything.

[BusyBadger]

I kind of feel like after the Renault takeover, Nissan got so caught up in differentiating Infiniti from Nissan that they forgot to select a direction along the way. Some models were BMW-chasers, others were Lexus-chasers, others were just slightly more upscale Nissans that didn't really fit in an existing luxury spot (G20). There was no real common thread to the brand.

'90s Infinitis were a random amalgam of older Nissan models recycled from other markets to appear like a whole brand, but it never really worked. The 1st gen Q45, M30, J30, and G20 all felt completely different. And when the original M45 came along, alongside the 2nd and third generation Q45s, there was so little differentiating them conceptually that most buyers probably had no idea what Infiniti was doing.

Then, when they finally built a hit (the G35) they got so carried away with it that they forgot to keep the rest of the brand advancing. The 2nd-gen M45 was meh, the 3rd gen Q45 was interesting but sort of a car nobody asked for. The FX was a great car that somehow nobody seemed to know existed--strange, considering how much more interesting it was than its contemporary crossovers.

The last generation of cars before the DeNysschen name change nonsense was definitely the most cohesive the brand had ever felt, but it was also the most generic. When they finally started to find a direction, it was one that wouldn't carry them very far (the easy direction: just copy the Germans except not enough to be meaningful).

I think the issue now is that they're trying to be too many things at once. Not really copying the Germans has failed, so they're trying to copy the Germans AND the Japanese AND the Americans and it's just too many directions at once. The cars do a lot of things, but none of them any better than anyone else.

What made early Infinitis appealing was character: strengths in balance of weakness. If you're not willing to pursue strength at the risk of weakness, you aren't going to achieve much of anything.

During the recovery immediately following Renault I can understand some uncertainty in direction for the company but I'm in complete agreement that it seems like for the longest time the company hasn't known what it wanted to be. To borrow a favourite quote from Harry Nilsson's album The Point, "A point in every direction is the same as no point at all." The lack of focus and direction has become more and more apparent, the company still doesn't seem to know what it wants to be.

I really thought that the G35 and especially the G35 coupe signified the real turnaround and establishment of an identity for Infiniti. It started a little earlier than that for me, I can remember seeing and admiring the first 350Zs when I was in Chicago but it was really the Infiniti FX, affectionately referred to as "The Bulldog" by Holli & myself, that drew my attention...it was also infinitely more usable on the streets of Chicago than a Z could ever be. It was so far removed from the cookie-cutter crossovers of the time, had decent performance and was just so fresh feeling that I'm surprised I didn't see more of them. I still don't see many.

The idea of playing up your strengths opposed to shoring up weaknesses is a great one, and one that I've emphasized for a long time. I wish Infiniti would get on board with this idea.

[Larz]

I think you lot have hit it on it's head. Until Infiniti decides exactly what direction they are headed, and which buyers they are aiming for, it will remain a relatively obscure brand. You may not know it, but in the UK, last year's sales of Infiniti was less than 1,300 units. Even Bentley sold more units than Infiniti in the UK !. There are 12 dealerships in the UK but most Brits have never heard of the brand - and those who know the brand are not looking for V6 or V8 petrol engines. The M30d and M35 were mainly sold as chauffeur driven executive saloons. But now, after 6 years in the UK, the Sunderland plant now makes the Q30 with body by Infiniti, but most everything else by Mercedes and Renault. The hope is that Infiniti has finally realized what UK and European buyers will actually consider purchasing. It out-performs the Mercedes A class, the Audi A3, and BMW 1 series in all but MPG ad even that comes close.
As for the states, no obvious effort has been made to really set the brand apart from others in it's class. One cannot deny that the M series and newer Q70 are more roomy and luxurious than any US cars, but Infiniti never seems to make that point to US car buyers. Instead, they appear to present Infiniti as a competitor to Audi, Mercedes, and BMW. However, none of those three consider Infiniti a competitor so it's a one-sided competition in the end. Infiniti need to realize that in the US, they should set themselves apart the way that Acura and Lexus has done so successfully. It's not soley about convincing BMW, Mercedes, and Audi buyers to try Infiniti. It's about going after brands like Lexus, Acura, and even US brands like Cadillac and others.
Don't get me wrong. I love my Infiniti and have chosen them over other brands twice now. But let's be honest here. You can drive behind or beside a Q70 and nothing says "Inifniti". The rear and side views are not remarkable in any way - especially with the latest wavy design and plain tail section that frankly is nothing special. It's only a Q70 is in your rear view that causes a second look. The front end is brilliant and cannot be mistaken for any brand but Infiniti. The rest of the design is not far removed from Honda, Toyota, or many US sedans. The older generations had a distinct design from any direction and they need to create that with the next generation before I will consider buying my 3rd Infiniti.
And, as I have asked ad nauseum: Why oh why can't we have a panoramic roof ??

[RicerX]

As for the states, no obvious effort has been made to really set the brand apart from others in it's class. One cannot deny that the M series and newer Q70 are more roomy and luxurious than any US cars, but Infiniti never seems to make that point to US car buyers. Instead, they appear to present Infiniti as a competitor to Audi, Mercedes, and BMW. However, none of those three consider Infiniti a competitor so it's a one-sided competition in the end. Infiniti need to realize that in the US, they should set themselves apart the way that Acura and Lexus has done so successfully. It's not soley about convincing BMW, Mercedes, and Audi buyers to try Infiniti. It's about going after brands like Lexus, Acura, and even US brands like Cadillac and others.

Audi, Merc, and BMW own the luxury market. Isn't that who you want to compete with if you're in it for the kill? Me, I'm not wasting my time with Acura. As woeful as you consider the Infiniti product portfolio to me, what has Acura built in the last 10 years that even touches a comparable Infiniti? I can't think of a single vehicle. Infiniti's best vehicle in the last 10 years is easily the G37 in sedan and coupe form. Acura's? A crossover. In fact, the majority of Acura's sales are crossovers, and Lexus as a brand outsells Acura by double consistently with (up until last year) one crossover in its lineup. Acura's secret to success is capturing Honda buyers who are tired of their CR-Vs and Pilots.

Where Infiniti has figured out rebadging Nissans was not the way to go in the luxury arena, Acura hasn't quite figured that out. The most ambitious product launch they've had lately is a gussied up Civic with a dual clutch transmission... that's still FWD. The NSX doesn't count - I consider that to be the supercar arena that, while built under a luxury nameplate, doesn't really make a mark in the luxury area at all. Plus, none of its DNA is remotely present in any of the other Acura models, much like the R8 has little to zero influence on the rest of the Audi portfolio. Lexus is the only brand that has taken its supercar (LFA) and passed bits of it off to other cars, even as far down as the IS350 with its interior.

If Infiniti is going to go after any single brand that isn't German, it's Lexus. Even there, I feel that's the wrong way to go if they want to be serious. If you want Infiniti to win, targeting 4th place isn't going to cut it. Go for the throat. Infiniti is launching two very exciting vehicles in the Q50 and Q60 twin turbo models this year that cover two different important segments in the luxury arena. Those cars have the potential to outperform a Merc C430 AMG Sport and a BMW 340i M Sport. Not even Lexus has a sedan that competes there (Even the F Sport IS350 isn't touching any of those cars). If you really want to make a serious splash, the volume cars from Germany is right where to go, and Infiniti has positioned themselves very well here. Just wait and see when they drop this summer. The rest will come after.

I agree they've struggled for the past several years, and that has been evident, especially with the lack of consistent leadership in place for much of the past several years. They're righting the ship - it's already started.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Acura and Lincoln are both a joke. "Don't matter" is a strong understatement.

They have all of Infiniti's lack of direction and vision combined with a complete absence of engineering, design, marketing, and production talent of any kind. They're basically the Mitsubishi of luxury brands.

Every single Acura is a mess of too many features and not enough car that manages to do nothing well and everything strangely with absolutely zero benefits. They're not even quirky in a good early-90s kind of way. Just bad. And that's BEFORE getting to the bad-standup-comedy pricing ($27k for an ILX and $60k for a why-do-people-buy-these-for-any-price-in-the-first-place RLX).

Every single Lincoln is a mess of moustache glued onto a Ford platform that's not actually any good in the first place. MKS? Overweight turd. MKZ? Overstyled mediocrity. MKX and MKT? Overweight AND overstyled turds. Even the new Continental has an extremely high likelihood of turning out to be a complete failure regardless of styling thanks to Ford's inability to combine decent platforms with decent powerplants. It's either going to be another hilariously heavy D3-based product or another I4-only example of 2nd-gen Fusion-based unambition. Either way, it'll be about as welcome in the luxury market as a trailer-mounted porta-potty.

The funny thing is, the solution for both brands in entirely straightforward:
Top end platform needs RWD/AWD
All cars need V6 options
Flagships need small boosted V8s
NO platform-sharing should be done with the base brand, save for the lowest-tier models if absolutely necessary.
Styling isn't an exercise in attention-whoring. It's an artform. Find and artist and quit trying to be automotive equivalent of the gaudy, cheapass "$1000 astronaut watch for just $27" from the back of Popular Science.

But neither brand will do any of that because it requires:
a) Effort
b) Competence