Before you respond that I'm in the wrong forum I'm posting in this forum because I did not receive any knowledgeable or useful responses in a similar post to this one from the Infiniti JX35 / QX60 Forum. I figure the QX60 is a close enough cousin to the Pathfinder that I might get a useful and knowledgeable response in this forum.

I have an Infiniti 2016 QX60 with brake judder as described in ITB00-24e https://infinitig37.com/TSB/ITB00-024e.pdf I've read and know the cause but cannot seem to resolve the problem to get smooth braking without judder. I've been doing my own brakes, disc and drum on various vehicles, for over 45 years and NEVER had a brake problem like this.

The judder issue started when I did the brakes for the first time after the factory ones wore out @ 70K miles . I had the factory rotors turned and installed a new set of Wearever Gold eramic brake pads from Advance Auto Parts. After a few thousand miles I noticed the brake judder progessively got worse. I did some investigation but apparently not enough to determine the root cause as documented in the TSB which I found recently.

The first thing I did to address the judder issue was to buy a new set of rotors and pads, this time, metallic, in case the factory turned rotors had run-out issues and possible the ceramic vs metallic pads was a cause the judder. However, no difference. So I had the new rotors turned but still had judder. Now at 95K miles and no difference I need a solution that will stop the judder. So 3 sets of rotors and brake pads but still have judder. And in all cases I did a recommended break in procedure. I've also bled the brakes,balanced the tires check my struts and suspension bushings.

I'll be honest that I tighten my lug nuts with an impact and no torque wrench but, insure that I do a rotating opposite side tightening and do it twice. I've used a impact for the lug nuts on every other brake job I've ever done and have NEVER had the judder issue.

So does anyone have a solution to the brake judder issue other than what I've already tried?

texasqx4 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:16 pm

I'll be honest that I tighten my lug nuts with an impact and no torque wrench but, insure that I do a rotating opposite side tightening and do it twice. I've used a impact for the lug nuts on every other brake job I've ever done and have NEVER had the judder issue.

There's a first time for everything, so I'm told. So you find your rotors to have runout but can't figure out why. Repeatedly happening every time you change out or machine the surface of your rotors and then potentially, and most likely, way over-torque your lugs nuts with an impact driver. Then, over time as the rotors heat up and cool down from normal braking, they eventually deform, possibly yielding to the excessive internal stresses caused by over-torqueing the lug nuts.

The second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time. Try it again but use a torque wrench. An impact driver can easily over-torque those lug nuts to twice the specification within a heartbeat.

As a last resort I guess I'll have to try new rotors and torqueing vs impact. I guess this will prove / or disprove whether using an impact can warp the rotors and cause judder.

I think it is interesting to note that a TSB was issued for the brake judder problem on this specific make / model vehicle. To me that says there is a something unique to the Nissan / Infiniti braking system that does not exist on other vehicles. And, I still don't understand how rotor braking surface can warp as a result of overtightened lub nuts when the hub of the rotor is bolted to the wheel hub, both flat surfaces, at the center of the rotor. And, why now on this vehicle and not the many other vehicles I've owned over the past 45 years?

texasqx4 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 22, 2023 3:00 pm

I think it is interesting to note that a TSB was issued for the brake judder problem on this specific make / model vehicle. To me that says there is a something unique to the Nissan / Infiniti braking system that does not exist on other vehicles.

That bulletin, ITB00-024K, applies to all Infiniti vehicles. There's a corresponding Nissan bulletin NTB00-033J. They apply to general brake diagnosis and good practices. There are no brake bulletins whatsoever that are specific to a '16 QX60.

OK, so if it applies to all Nissan / Infiniti then it is specific to any vehicles inclusive of that family of vehicles (e.g. QX60) so what's the difference? So my point is still valid, but broadens to all Nissan / Infiniti models, that Nissan / Infiniti have a unique brake shudder issue that required not one but numerous TSB's over 22 year period for the same issues vs other makes / models. (See below)

AMENDMENT HISTORY

PUBLISHED DATE REFERENCE DESCRIPTION

March 30, 2000 ITB00-024 Original bulletin published
June 11, 2003 ITB00-024A Page 6 revised
August 30, 2004 ITB00-024B Brake Judder Repair revised
October 23, 2006 ITB00-024C Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years, and Rotor Indexing updated
April 24, 2007 ITB00-024D Key value information removed
August 8, 2007 ITB00-024E Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years
July 23, 2013 ITB00-024F Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years
November 28, 2017 ITB00-024G Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years, and pages 8 and 10 updated
March 19, 2018 ITB00-024H Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years
May 3, 2021 ITB00-024I Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years, and changes made on pages 5-9
January 27, 2022 ITB00-024J Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years
March 14, 2023 ITB00-024K Publication date revised to include the latest models and
model years, and pages 5 and 7 revised

Non-uniformity in torque of all the lug nuts plays a part. Rotor geometry plays a part as well, especially the diameter. The large diameter rotors on your QX60, compared to your QX4 and many other vehicles, has a greater angular momentum which also plays a part when stopping a heavy QX80 since there is a great deal more moment force potential than a small rotor stopping a lighter vehicle. All of these forces add up to the point where uniformity and proper torque force of the lug nuts become more critical. Damage to the hub can also occur from over-torqueing and non-uniformity of torque.

texasqx4 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 22, 2023 3:53 pm

OK, so if it applies to all Nissan / Infiniti then it is specific to any vehicles inclusive of that family of vehicles (e.g. QX60) so what's the difference? So my point is still valid, but broadens to all Nissan / Infiniti models, that Nissan / Infiniti have a unique brake shudder issue that required not one but numerous TSB's over 22 year period for the same issues vs other makes / models.

There was exactly one revision regarding judder and it's 19 years old. If you're trying to make a case that everybody with a Nissan or Infiniti has a judder issue, I'm sorry, they don't. I'm a dealership tech, if we were constantly replacing rotors I'd be the first one to know about it. You're doing something wrong, plain and simple.

I got the rotors turned and it only required one pass on the milling machined and only removed .004. Operator said in his opinion and based on only one pass with .004 removed that the rotors were NOT warped. I reinstalled the newly turned rotors and torqued all 4 wheels 83 ft lbs (2 passes / Star pattern). I bled the brakes (RF, LF, RR, LR) with batter disconnected and broke in the front rotors / pads with 60 mph > 10mph mph passes, eight in all. The hubs have no noise, rotate easily and no end play. Judder is when applying brakes and gets worse the higher the speed when stopping. No judder felt in steering wheel or brake pedal it's purely felt in the front end and only during braking.

So what else is there to try to resolve the issue? Struts? A-Arm bushings? Anti-Lock brakes? Master cyliner? Vacuum booster? Is it some how the CV transmission which has a know history of problems? I'm open to all suggestions to get this resolved. I'm real close to selling the car and get something else and let it be someone else's problem.

And I forgot to mention that several months ago I did take it to the local Infinity dealer and talked with the service writer who also took it for a drive with me, him driving. His diagnosis was hub bearing or alignment. So we took it to get aligned. Front alignment was within spec and required no adjustment. Rear required minor adjustment so it was'nt alignment. And as I mentioned the hub bearings appear to be fine with no noise or indication of run-out or any other issue. I may break down and pay the $225 service fee, which is ridiculous, to let the them figure out the issue.

A very very rare problem when machining rotors is ( and it IS operator error !! ) IS the surfaces ie. rotor's & milling mach's SURFACES HAVE SCHITT ALL OVER themeselves - most important the ACTUAL MATING SURFACES .
They get junk that jacks-up and causes an ever so slight WOBBLE while turning . Happened to me at a Checker 18 years ago I went back and told - showed - and PROVED it and so they gave me a free one !! , ya

Hell.......................I had to point out debris , had him put HIS WAY onto machine and w/dial indicator = proof, s*** you could actually SEE it - when you know it's there, like only a few .001's movement side-side!

Ya just gotta see the machine for yourself and tell operator find that brush AND CLEAN IT THE F' UP...........in a nice way of course.

Dial indicator used to check run-out ON the car in question , called "Indexing" where you put the rotor in ALL of the # of mounting positions - FIVE for 5 lugs . You spin while reading the dial ind. Your now measuring it's "wobble" so to speak. AND the position w/least swing of indicator WILL be "position of least wobble" and so far so good ? MARK IT SO !! Always put that rotor back 'on the mark '.

Have you had all four cut? Are you certain the problem isn't in the rear?

macgiver wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:22 am

Dial indicator used to check run-out ON the car in question ...

I'll second that. Never cared for the type of rotors these are, where the same lug nuts securing your wheel also secures the rotor to the hub at the same time. Typical of drum brakes but the flat face where the drum mounts is always covered so there is no chance of getting road grit in between the drum and the mounting flange when you take off your wheel and the drum moves slightly away from where it mounts flat to the flange.

Rotors like this are more vulnerable to having the hub face mounting surface exposed to road grit getting in between the mounting faces of the rotor and hub when you remove your wheel. Reinstall your wheel with grit stuck in there and it's going to have run-out. Torque the lug nuts tight enough to crush the grit, tweak the hub flange, have it work fine for awhile, and then later wonder what went wrong.

A dial indicator will verify this and maybe even find that happy place where there is no run-out as you check to find that perfect index position for the mounting bolts and rotor bolt holes. If run-out is indicated no matter how you mount the rotor, then the hub mounting surface flatness or hub bearing is suspect.

macgiver wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:23 am

A very very rare problem when machining rotors is ( and it IS operator error !! ) IS the surfaces ie. rotor's & milling mach's SURFACES HAVE SCHITT ALL OVER themeselves - most important the ACTUAL MATING SURFACES .
They get junk that jacks-up and causes an ever so slight WOBBLE while turning . Happened to me at a Checker 18 years ago I went back and told - showed - and PROVED it and so they gave me a free one !! , ya

Hell.......................I had to point out debris , had him put HIS WAY onto machine and w/dial indicator = proof, s*** you could actually SEE it - when you know it's there, like only a few .001's movement side-side!

Ya just gotta see the machine for yourself and tell operator find that brush AND CLEAN IT THE F' UP...........in a nice way of course.

I don't believe this is an issue for two reasons:

1) The identical issue occurred with new rotors.
2) I've had rotors turned on same machine at O'Reillys for other vehicles with no issue.

VStar650CL wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:26 am

Have you had all four cut? Are you certain the problem isn't in the rear?

No I have not had the rear rotors turned. When the issue started with the original brake replacement the rear rotors were new.

At this point I'm no certain of anything, however, based on the feel of the vibration, especially under hard braking, it's definitely coming from the front. There's no "seat of the pants" vibration indicating a rear source vibration.

Here's a bit from the service manual that I find disturbing. Throughout the manual there are cautions about being sure to mark an index position of the rotor to the hub so that it can be reassembled the same way, I assume to avoid runout that would be present if the rotor was not put back onto the hub with the lug bolts in the hub going into the same bolt holes in the rotor. However, I could find nothing on what to do when you replace the rotor. Then I saw it. The service manual calls for the rotors to be refinished with a specific tool, which is a Pro-Cut on-car brake lathe. Anything and everything that is not in perfect alignment and balance in the axle and brake assembly ultimately gets straightened out on the lathe while it is all assembled. Taking the rotors off to have them cut cannot account for any irregularities of alignment and geometry of the hub, bearing, and axle assemblies.

Yeah...I really do not like these types of rotors.

I see that the service manual for my '02 Pathfinder also calls for an on-car brake lathe. My rotors are bolted separately to the hub with an assembled runout spec of .004in, which is 4-times more tolerant than the tight spec of .0016in or less of runout on the QX60. That's a machined tight tolerance whereas mine is not. Machining yours in place may be the only way to get it right.

To what degree does this " seat o' pants " reception of these judders get felt in your steering wheel ? And I take it varying road surfaces have NOT much influence ?
Roads around my area , evidently the construction or the maintenance thereafter results in lineal raised 'faults' going across 90 deg to your fwd direction and almost everywhere there can and usually WILL be some kind of judder , AND aggravated by these rib-like disturbances .Oddly enough you can't ALLWAYS even SEE them , and MUCH more severe IF you happen to be driving over even the minor ones using even moderate brake-pedal force I got the shakes. 95% was cured by doing a R & R of both inner/outer t-rods , clean & lube ,etc.(seen in an earlier post of mine) .
This is another rare outside the box sounding thing to happen , but at first it ONLY seemed just a thought . With some experimentation I homed in on the ' rack theory ' , did the R & R ...................was fixed.
Just throwi'n this at you .............IF it ' sticks ' !

I would'nt be surprised if NOT the case w/you , BUT you can rule out another theory - " Pass Go " like monopoly onto the next course of action . Ya
p.s. what mdmellot says about pancake rotors are susceptable ZShitt getting behind them AS SOON AS THEY'RE LOSSENED always goes through my mind doing rotations & brakes.

mdmellott wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:35 pm

Here's a bit from the service manual that I find disturbing. Throughout the manual there are cautions about being sure to mark an index position of the rotor to the hub so that it can be reassembled the same way, I assume to avoid runout that would be present if the rotor was not put back onto the hub with the lug bolts in the hub going into the same bolt holes in the rotor. However, I could find nothing on what to do when you replace the rotor. Then I saw it. The service manual calls for the rotors to be refinished with a specific tool, which is a Pro-Cut on-car brake lathe. Anything and everything that is not in perfect alignment and balance in the axle and brake assembly ultimately gets straightened out on the lathe while it is all assembled. Taking the rotors off to have them cut cannot account for any irregularities of alignment and geometry of the hub, bearing, and axle assemblies.

Yeah...I really do not like these types of rotors.

I see that the service manual for my '02 Pathfinder also calls for an on-car brake lathe. My rotors are bolted separately to the hub with an assembled runout spec of .004in, which is 4-times more tolerant than the tight spec of .0016in or less of runout on the QX60. That's a machined tight tolerance whereas mine is not. Machining yours in place may be the only way to get it right.

Thanks! Finally a solution that makes sense! That is by far the best advice I received. Coincidentally I was just rereading the ITB00-24f service bulletin which referenced the "BR" brake manual section and found the same information. I think your right that it wants the rotors to be turned on the vehicle to include all the variables including rotor and hub run out. If this is required then I assume new rotors must be turned as as well as used rotors that are still within spec to be turned, correct? That's ridiculous! Yet, an additional maintenance cost for a Nissan / Infiniti vehicle. You would think they could reengineer the rotor / hub assembly to be mounted with seperate bolts from the lug nuts but, I'm guessing they figure that adds to the overall car manufacturing cost. I'd rather pay a one time cost up front than have to pay each time the brakes need to be replaced. I'm going to get a run out gauge and check first but, it looks like I'll need to find a shop that has this type of machine or have to go to the dealership, UGH! which I hope is not the case given what they charge.

So, when you state, " Yeah...I really do not like these types of rotors." are you referring to how they are mounted using using the wheel and lug nuts vs. the rotors mounted with their own bolts to the hub? If so, as a side note my 2013 GMC 2500HD has similar rotors that are secured by the wheel and lug nuts only. I've never had a judder problem and mount them with my impact wrench (Note: Going forward I will mount using torque wrench). So I don't know why the Infiniti's hub / rotor assembly are so much more sensitive than my truck rotors.

P.S. I think once I get this brake issue fixed I'm selling the QX60 and I'm done the Nissan / Infiniti. I've been a loyal Nissan / Infiniti customer for 36 years and 5 cars (e.g. '86 Nissan Stanza, '90 Nissan Maxima, '96 Infiniti I30, 2001 Infiniti QX4, and 2016 Infiniti QX60.) I'd like to know how many others on this forum can match that! And the QX4 lasted 265K miles until it started to have some engine issues. I did the brakes on all of these vehicles and NEVER had a problem.

texasqx4 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:57 pm

mdmellott wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:35 pm

... I see that the service manual for my '02 Pathfinder ...

... the QX4 lasted 265K miles until it started to have some engine issues. ...

I like how we ended this QX60 discussion in the Nissan Pathfinder Forum / Infiniti QX4 Forum with a Pathfinder and QX4 reference. Rogue One should be pleased with that and not bump the subject topic to the Infiniti JX35 / QX60 Forum where it sort of started.

Rogue One, Love ya man!

texasqx4 good luck on your endeavors , now some solid target to hit now ? But I will tell you when I buy new rotors I do first a good clean / inspected @ the store rotor I then install and DO TRY the " indexing ( ALL five pos.) and it's suggested in many instructions in box , racers , conscientious shops , and shade tree do so as NOT to go the expense and in many a mechanic's opinion , not the least is taking material off a rotor kinda un-necessarilly .
1) Machinist could be a " Goof " and grossly F' up

2) Indexing gives the new rotor " best sweet-spot , so IF & WHEN a COMPETENT machinist cuts your rotors down the road they haxe a best " base " they're given from the START . Ya?

3) You haven't taken off MATERIAL

4) You forgo extra step AND extra expense now , but of course ya gotta judge your new-found sweet-spot if good enough for your personal standards ,very rarely tho,rarely indexing STILL leaves you with Boris Bad-enough

macgiver wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:29 pm

... Boris Bad-enough

A Bullwinkle reference! Love it.

Hey, Rock, watch me pull a brake rotor out of my hat...

That trick never works.

mdmellott wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:06 pm

texasqx4 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:57 pm

I like how we ended this QX60 discussion in the Nissan Pathfinder Forum / Infiniti QX4 Forum with a Pathfinder and QX4 reference. Rogue One should be pleased with that and not bump the subject topic to the Infiniti JX35 / QX60 Forum where it sort of started.

Rogue One, Love ya man!

I would hope I would not get bumped! The reason I posted to the Pathfinder forum is that I did not receive knowledgeable respones or any response to my posts because the technical brain trust is in the Pathfinder board did not exist. I posted to the Pathfinder forum so I could receive the responses I needed to resolve the issue I posted.

I've been wanting to question board managers about the exclusion of the Infiniti J30 / QX60 from the Nissan Pathfinder / Infiniti QX4 Board for quite some time. I have no idea why they segregated J30 / QX4 by brand it to it's own Board when the J30 / QX60 is the equivalent of the QX4 first gen to the first gen Pathfinder.

Currently you have to use two boards when there should be one. By combining the boards you would have equivalent chassis / body / engine models in the same forum allowing the board to have a combined brain trust to discuss these models regardless of make.

Vstar ...mdmellot ...............................watch me pull a trashed rotor out of the dumpster......... !!

Like the Joe-Jitsu guy in those cartoons...............................SO SORRY (flip....flop....flip...flop )

see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIa8wfIeZVA....." six-two and even ...over & out !! "