The runner length [from mid valve lift 0.2" to the plenum] and runner diameter tunes the system for a certain volume/speed/rpm equation.
The rpm where just before [some amount of degrees] the intake valve closes where a sudden broad puff of extra air comes down as a reflected wave to fight the expect outward air pushed as the piston moves up the bore [37%] is the tuned point.
Changing the diameter changes the tune point.
If extrude honing works, the tuned point is higher up the rpm band.......normally they only take off 2-3% of diameter so 180-200 rpms is the upward movement. The best effect is just before redline!.......with lesser gains as you drop in rpm down to HP peak and probably nothing down at 4,000 rpm.
The length is much more critical than the diameter!
The runner diameter has a taper, being larger at the plenum than just before the head. The 90-93Q splits the round runner just after the injector nozzle into dual isolated oval tapering to round ports thru the head feeding each intake valve. This taper and split makes it easier for air to be focused down the runner while making it harder [delayed] reflecting back up the runner. There also is a directional bump [mini assymetrical ramp] just inside the head to help with this reversion at low rpms.
The goal of all this is to peak the amount of air contained in the cylinder at 4,000 and 5,700 and 6,000 rpm. The trade off is that 4,000 is favored over 6,000 in order to have sufficient torque at cruise rpm [1800-2000 rpm].
If you move the tuning up the bottom will suffer by roughly an equal amount.
The intake valve diameter and lift and the head ports are always the most restrictive parts of the system at high rpms.
Extrude honing is the final external process after you have reduced all the easier restrictions........there is 17-20"* of vacuum restriction prior to the plenum.......pretty much evenly divided between TB, MAF, and air box air intake.
* 20/28=0.71 x 0.066=0.047 or 4.7%............14HP lost to air restriction prior to plenum.
The plenum runners have little restriction [2.8 square inches 400CFM] to flow 1/8th of air compared to 7" square inches of TB or MAF to flow all the air for 8 cylinders.
""" Another basic is to make 100 horsepower, you need 140 CFM of air. The rule of thumb for naturally aspirated fuel injection, at a standard 1.5 inches of water column, is that for every square inch of TB, you will flow 140 CFM. To calculate the air flow for a 3" butterfly, you need to calculate the area first. Area = pi X radius squared. So, 1/2 of 3" is 1.5 inch, squared is 2.25, times pi (3.14) = 7 square inches of butterfly area. This means that it will flow enough air for approximately 980 CFM, or 700 horsepower.
Same with MAF without straightening screen.
Yet the engine only consumes 420 CFM to make 300HP......everything is double sized ALREADY to lower restrictions.
Increased Airflow
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Q45tech
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- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
You CAN't gain air flow because the cylinder can only absorb so much volume from the atmospheric pressure pushing the air into the cylinder.
They trick the uneducated into thinking the volume is unlimited, when it can rarely be above 100% even with the reflected wave last minute filling. Some exotic race engines can achieve 110% filling.
Domestic V8 rarely fill above 85-87% while the Q might get to 95-97% at the torque peak rpm....[81% @ 6000].....at redline the Q cylinder is only 72-74% filled with air as the opening time [in millisecs] is so small.The air has mass so it has to start and stop flowing.
When you look at injector open time you will see it maximes at 4000 rpm and declines thereafter as the air flow per cycle decreases.......[the factory doesn't decline the amount as much as you would expect.......25%. Instead uses the extra fuel to cool the cylinders and only drops 10-12%...........rising richness over the 5500-7000 rpm range.
The only thing that fills the cylinders is atmospheric pressure..[filling the void left by the exhaust cycle]....why the engines are so sensitive to temp and barometric pressure.
As the flow speed increases thru the intake system the air gets heated by the wall friction [bends and metal roughness] plus of course radiation if the walls are hotter than the incoming air but at high speeds there isn't much time for this radiative heating ...... mostly wall friction.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question5 ... ?q...hl=en
http://www.theoldone.com/archive/ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They trick the uneducated into thinking the volume is unlimited, when it can rarely be above 100% even with the reflected wave last minute filling. Some exotic race engines can achieve 110% filling.
Domestic V8 rarely fill above 85-87% while the Q might get to 95-97% at the torque peak rpm....[81% @ 6000].....at redline the Q cylinder is only 72-74% filled with air as the opening time [in millisecs] is so small.The air has mass so it has to start and stop flowing.
When you look at injector open time you will see it maximes at 4000 rpm and declines thereafter as the air flow per cycle decreases.......[the factory doesn't decline the amount as much as you would expect.......25%. Instead uses the extra fuel to cool the cylinders and only drops 10-12%...........rising richness over the 5500-7000 rpm range.
The only thing that fills the cylinders is atmospheric pressure..[filling the void left by the exhaust cycle]....why the engines are so sensitive to temp and barometric pressure.
As the flow speed increases thru the intake system the air gets heated by the wall friction [bends and metal roughness] plus of course radiation if the walls are hotter than the incoming air but at high speeds there isn't much time for this radiative heating ...... mostly wall friction.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question5 ... ?q...hl=en
http://www.theoldone.com/archive/ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Not to say that an optimum intake and throttle body and plenum/runners extrude honing might not yield [improve] 1/3 of the available pressure losses.........5 HP/ 4RWHP might be achievable.
Remember the factory safety program has reserved up to 20 HP in running overly rich to cool the cylinders.
Most of the cone filter dyno improvements come from mis calibrating the MAF by changing the vortex flow just in front of it.....making the ecu lean the injectors thinking less air is flowing.
Took years to notice that the MAF voltage actually dropped when you would expect it to rise a tiny bit with more air flow in any from a come filter. The heated air is less dense so you see a MAF voltage drop also. We are speaking of tiny amounts 4.44 vs 4.40-4.36 volts.
Start with JWT ecu because that gains 1 HP minimum per $30. EVERY OTHER MOD costs more per HP.
". Strangely when the manifold was dynoed, the results were a little disappointing as the engine only gained 1 peak hp while losing 1 hp below 5000 rpm. Past the power peak until the fuel cut, the engine gained 3 to 4 hp. Although these gains seem small, they were repeatable through four back-to-back dyno pulls. The manifold reduced the amount of fall off past the power peak, thus broadening the power band up on top. These results were somewhat less than we were hoping for, but the increase at the top end could certainly be put to good use. The Extrude Hone people were surprised at the results as well, telling us that every other car they have tried has gained more power than ours""" from http://www.se-r.net/about/200sx/scc/nov98/
Remember the factory safety program has reserved up to 20 HP in running overly rich to cool the cylinders.
Most of the cone filter dyno improvements come from mis calibrating the MAF by changing the vortex flow just in front of it.....making the ecu lean the injectors thinking less air is flowing.
Took years to notice that the MAF voltage actually dropped when you would expect it to rise a tiny bit with more air flow in any from a come filter. The heated air is less dense so you see a MAF voltage drop also. We are speaking of tiny amounts 4.44 vs 4.40-4.36 volts.
Start with JWT ecu because that gains 1 HP minimum per $30. EVERY OTHER MOD costs more per HP.
". Strangely when the manifold was dynoed, the results were a little disappointing as the engine only gained 1 peak hp while losing 1 hp below 5000 rpm. Past the power peak until the fuel cut, the engine gained 3 to 4 hp. Although these gains seem small, they were repeatable through four back-to-back dyno pulls. The manifold reduced the amount of fall off past the power peak, thus broadening the power band up on top. These results were somewhat less than we were hoping for, but the increase at the top end could certainly be put to good use. The Extrude Hone people were surprised at the results as well, telling us that every other car they have tried has gained more power than ours""" from http://www.se-r.net/about/200sx/scc/nov98/
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Q45tech
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- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
"spacing the head " ? Say what
The cam duration [248] and valve lift [0.390] is the major limiting factor in cylinder filling at high rpm.
The exhaust has very low overlap [8 degrees] to lower emissions and create a smooth idle............another 10-12 degrees would add 20-30 HP at 6700 rpm.
Computer simulations say 355 HP with just cam changes and 370HP with 2 " shorter and 10% larger runners at 6700 rpm.
The cam duration [248] and valve lift [0.390] is the major limiting factor in cylinder filling at high rpm.
The exhaust has very low overlap [8 degrees] to lower emissions and create a smooth idle............another 10-12 degrees would add 20-30 HP at 6700 rpm.
Computer simulations say 355 HP with just cam changes and 370HP with 2 " shorter and 10% larger runners at 6700 rpm.
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
You are missing the point that at high rpm the time to fill a space is short......and this lack of time is what limits the filling.
Installing a thicker head gasket lowers the efficiency because the compression ratio drops. The normal proceedure is to stroke the engine to enlarge the displacement.
Since HP per dollar is the factor, once you want more than 20% increase, supercharging is the way to go. Unfortunately any cam work is counter productive and needs to revert back to oem style cams.
Pretty much all engines torque rolls off [from HP peak rpm] at the same slope......2 Valve roll off faster than 4 Valve which roll faster than 5 Valve..The following show the VE for a state of the art 2V=85%Max and declines to 73% at HP peak rpm vs the Q's 81%.
http://www.installuniversity.c...0.htm
The stock Q engine acts like it is 10% larger due to better air flow, a tuned [via ecu] Q acts like it is 15-20% larger than a 2 valve V8.............except at idle and cruise.
http://www.installuniversity.c...0.htm
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/....html
http://www.geocities.com/mikey...s.htm
Installing a thicker head gasket lowers the efficiency because the compression ratio drops. The normal proceedure is to stroke the engine to enlarge the displacement.
Since HP per dollar is the factor, once you want more than 20% increase, supercharging is the way to go. Unfortunately any cam work is counter productive and needs to revert back to oem style cams.
Pretty much all engines torque rolls off [from HP peak rpm] at the same slope......2 Valve roll off faster than 4 Valve which roll faster than 5 Valve..The following show the VE for a state of the art 2V=85%Max and declines to 73% at HP peak rpm vs the Q's 81%.
http://www.installuniversity.c...0.htm
The stock Q engine acts like it is 10% larger due to better air flow, a tuned [via ecu] Q acts like it is 15-20% larger than a 2 valve V8.............except at idle and cruise.
http://www.installuniversity.c...0.htm
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/....html
http://www.geocities.com/mikey...s.htm
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
The cams seem identical 90-95 [at least by the info given in FSM.......the heads have different intake ports dual round vs single oval..........94-96 would have the effect of a lower tuning......why the 94-95 have a single HP peak around 5700 vs the 90-93 with two equal peak at 5,500 and 6,000.
The 96 has the reduced duration 238 vs 248 cams and the 96 has 3 vs 8 degrees of overlap.
It appears that the 94-95 meet published specs just that the 90-93 exceeded them by 8-15 lb/ft. [5%].
5% here and 5% [gearing] there and maybe 10% [from JWT ecu] feels like 20%.....[effectively 60 lb/ft gross or 45 net] ..suddenly you have 0.4-0.5 secs better acceleration. At least in the first 2 gears.
The 96 has the reduced duration 238 vs 248 cams and the 96 has 3 vs 8 degrees of overlap.
It appears that the 94-95 meet published specs just that the 90-93 exceeded them by 8-15 lb/ft. [5%].
5% here and 5% [gearing] there and maybe 10% [from JWT ecu] feels like 20%.....[effectively 60 lb/ft gross or 45 net] ..suddenly you have 0.4-0.5 secs better acceleration. At least in the first 2 gears.
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Compression ratio increases just raise the running BMEP by the percent.
Static compression [cranking compression] means nothing OTHER than a warning as to what fuel you need!
As the running compression [BMEP] is a function of filling rates [VE]..............the VE/BMEP is highest at the torque peak rpm [+- 250 rpm].
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/....htmlh ... u/....html
The efficiency would increase by 0.54% and the HP would increase by something less than 2.7% something less than 8 HP.
Not very cost effective........not sure how milling heads would work will chain length and tensioners.
55.0735 cc vs 52.255813 cc or 2.75 cc less compression space
Static compression [cranking compression] means nothing OTHER than a warning as to what fuel you need!
As the running compression [BMEP] is a function of filling rates [VE]..............the VE/BMEP is highest at the torque peak rpm [+- 250 rpm].
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/....htmlh ... u/....html
The efficiency would increase by 0.54% and the HP would increase by something less than 2.7% something less than 8 HP.
Not very cost effective........not sure how milling heads would work will chain length and tensioners.
55.0735 cc vs 52.255813 cc or 2.75 cc less compression space
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Q45tech
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Really it doesn't make economic sense to modify an engine internally when you can just buy a wrecked Corvette 5.65 liter and get an instant 400 HP and torque for less money.......or mildly supercharge what you have to 6 psi.
You hit a WALL with displacement........if the engineers could do it they wouldn't have build the new 5.6 liter Titan engine.
Think of BMW, they went from 4>4.4>4.6 and finally 5.0 liter V8.
After lots of expensive internal work you get to 360 HP on a Q or just slap on $6,000 worth of supercharging and tuning and you get 400 HP - never opening up the engine. Blow it up and swap another JDM and turn the boost down 1 psi and go again.......lots less expensive in the long run.
You can have a garage full of engines to swap in at $1200 each.
Years ago [1999] I spent months doing all the engineering simulations and calculations to build up the Q, talked with the actual design team by email at least 30 times. My business partner in Japan went to business school [MBA] with one of the Nissan Group VPs so the intros and process was easy.
It's wounderful to dream what if, but.
You hit a WALL with displacement........if the engineers could do it they wouldn't have build the new 5.6 liter Titan engine.
Think of BMW, they went from 4>4.4>4.6 and finally 5.0 liter V8.
After lots of expensive internal work you get to 360 HP on a Q or just slap on $6,000 worth of supercharging and tuning and you get 400 HP - never opening up the engine. Blow it up and swap another JDM and turn the boost down 1 psi and go again.......lots less expensive in the long run.
You can have a garage full of engines to swap in at $1200 each.
Years ago [1999] I spent months doing all the engineering simulations and calculations to build up the Q, talked with the actual design team by email at least 30 times. My business partner in Japan went to business school [MBA] with one of the Nissan Group VPs so the intros and process was easy.
It's wounderful to dream what if, but.
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Q45tech
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250 RWHP is achievable with everything right assuming the rings are not worn and running compression is near new.
Just for the extra 1% use Mobile 1 oil, ATF, and diff fluids keep the ATF colder and more viscous [to limit losses] with a real ATF cooler.
Make sure the tires are oem soft and 2 ply sidewalls to limit deformation friction.........try various inflation to check the effect.
Just for the extra 1% use Mobile 1 oil, ATF, and diff fluids keep the ATF colder and more viscous [to limit losses] with a real ATF cooler.
Make sure the tires are oem soft and 2 ply sidewalls to limit deformation friction.........try various inflation to check the effect.
Mini,
I am fairly certain we figured out all of AGMs dyno numbers were KW.. Which means with all his mods he is over 300RWHP..
I would be permanently satisfied with 300RWHP..
I am hoping for a solid 250RWHP with the ECU and exhaust...
300 would quinch my need for a S/C..
Although I have done all the research on the S/C, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal to get it done.. The price isn't that bad, the engine management JWT can take care of.. The S/C and plumbing are provided by the fabricator... so tempting..
I am fairly certain we figured out all of AGMs dyno numbers were KW.. Which means with all his mods he is over 300RWHP..
I would be permanently satisfied with 300RWHP..
I am hoping for a solid 250RWHP with the ECU and exhaust...
300 would quinch my need for a S/C..
Although I have done all the research on the S/C, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal to get it done.. The price isn't that bad, the engine management JWT can take care of.. The S/C and plumbing are provided by the fabricator... so tempting..
Q45tech,
Can you help me out with something.. I am picking up a 92Q with 13,000 original miles..
The car is probably close to 13 years old, but it has been barely driven.. Although when it was driven, I bet it was hard (it competed in some endurace racing events.. etc)
Any advice on what I should look out for?
It's an A as well
Mileage wears a car, although I know time passing can wear it as well.. Will I need to replace spark plugs/hoses/stuff like that? Or because of the low mileage, will this stuff still be pretty close to new condition?
I wish I lived near t3.. I'd love to drop the car off, and know when I picked it up, it would be pristine
Can you help me out with something.. I am picking up a 92Q with 13,000 original miles..
The car is probably close to 13 years old, but it has been barely driven.. Although when it was driven, I bet it was hard (it competed in some endurace racing events.. etc)
Any advice on what I should look out for?
It's an A as well
Mileage wears a car, although I know time passing can wear it as well.. Will I need to replace spark plugs/hoses/stuff like that? Or because of the low mileage, will this stuff still be pretty close to new condition?
I wish I lived near t3.. I'd love to drop the car off, and know when I picked it up, it would be pristine
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elwesso
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This is a great thread.....
Dennis, you mentioned by increasing the exhaust overlap, three is possibility for more power. Is there any easy way to do this besides changing the cams.....
The only problem I see doing cam work is simple, they dont exist. We have 4.08, supercharger, nitrous, ECU, etc all available to us, and will gain MUCH more power than anything cam related.
Dennis, you mentioned by increasing the exhaust overlap, three is possibility for more power. Is there any easy way to do this besides changing the cams.....
The only problem I see doing cam work is simple, they dont exist. We have 4.08, supercharger, nitrous, ECU, etc all available to us, and will gain MUCH more power than anything cam related.
Increased Airflow
Q45Tech this question is mainly directed at you, however anyone else whom may be able to help, it'd be appreciated.
A company who does extrude honing claims they can increase airflow to the engine by approximately 20% through their process. What does this translate into as far as real world horsepower and torque gains go?
Corey
A company who does extrude honing claims they can increase airflow to the engine by approximately 20% through their process. What does this translate into as far as real world horsepower and torque gains go?
Corey
Basically what you're saying is it will slightly increase hp at a higher RPM while decreasing torque at lower rpms?
Restriction... rather the lack thereof is the name of the game, isn't it? Even though the VH45DE only requires 420 CFM to function if you were to have an induction/exhaust system only capable of such CFMs you wouldn't end up with an engine putting out a near optimal 300hp, right?
The way I figure it restriction to power isn't linear, so there should be small gains doing this mod.
Assuming a 20% gain in airflow as quoted:
1.2x980cfm=1176CFM w/ the extrude honed plenum/intake.
Though if you're correct Dennis, I'd assume you wouldn't gain 196CFM into the engine, as this isn't where the greatest restriction is taking place. This would merely decrease the restriction at the plenum, though as you say most of the restriction is before the plenum and "evenly divided between TB, MAF and air box intake."
At this point I'm getting the feeling a 5hp gain is nearly out of the question... I suppose if you're always driving around at high rpms (such as a racing situation) it would help you as you'd probably never go below 3500-4000rpms anyways.
Corey
Restriction... rather the lack thereof is the name of the game, isn't it? Even though the VH45DE only requires 420 CFM to function if you were to have an induction/exhaust system only capable of such CFMs you wouldn't end up with an engine putting out a near optimal 300hp, right?
The way I figure it restriction to power isn't linear, so there should be small gains doing this mod.Assuming a 20% gain in airflow as quoted:
1.2x980cfm=1176CFM w/ the extrude honed plenum/intake.
Though if you're correct Dennis, I'd assume you wouldn't gain 196CFM into the engine, as this isn't where the greatest restriction is taking place. This would merely decrease the restriction at the plenum, though as you say most of the restriction is before the plenum and "evenly divided between TB, MAF and air box intake."
At this point I'm getting the feeling a 5hp gain is nearly out of the question... I suppose if you're always driving around at high rpms (such as a racing situation) it would help you as you'd probably never go below 3500-4000rpms anyways.
Corey
Q45tech wrote:Domestic V8 rarely fill above 85-87% while the Q might get to 95-97% at the torque peak rpm....[81% @ 6000].....at redline the Q cylinder is only 72-74% filled with air as the opening time [in millisecs] is so small.The air has mass so it has to start and stop flowing.
Dennis, this leaves me to reason that spacing the head would result in a significant power improvement. What's your feeling on this?
Once again, your informative reply is appreciated and well accepted. Thanks for setting my thoughts straight on the extrude honing process straight.
Corey
By spacing the head I mean inserting a shim between the block and head, thereby creating more "room" inside the engine which means it can injest more air in a cycle. If you time the valve events perfectly it seams within reason to reach a 100% fill rate.
With VVT wouldn't it be possible to make the engine only slightly more aggresive at lower rpms while making it extremely aggresive/powerful at higher rpms?
Of course you wouldn't be talking cheap when it comes to custom fabbing a project like this... but a 30hp gain may well be worth it, especially if my engine's already in pieces.
Corey
With VVT wouldn't it be possible to make the engine only slightly more aggresive at lower rpms while making it extremely aggresive/powerful at higher rpms?
Of course you wouldn't be talking cheap when it comes to custom fabbing a project like this... but a 30hp gain may well be worth it, especially if my engine's already in pieces.
Corey
Q45Tech... I appreciate the honest truth. It may not be what I was hoping for, but it's the truth.
I was against going blown up until now... I guess I'll be considering it. Funny how that JDM Q45 twin turbo was selling for a mere 7k Canadian... I wouldn't mind going back in time right about now, just to buy that car for parts...
Looking at AGM's dyno graph, I believe the measurement unit on the left hand side should be kW instead of hp. That'd pull his stock rating w/out headers to 225RWHP. With headers, chipped and with "extractors" that's about 319RWHP. However if the unit of measurement [HP] is correct he's only 10-15rwhp up on a stock Q45 and that's with a full exhaust and ECU. Either way his results on the dyno are pretty unbelievable... just for two different reasons...
Corey
I was against going blown up until now... I guess I'll be considering it. Funny how that JDM Q45 twin turbo was selling for a mere 7k Canadian... I wouldn't mind going back in time right about now, just to buy that car for parts...
Looking at AGM's dyno graph, I believe the measurement unit on the left hand side should be kW instead of hp. That'd pull his stock rating w/out headers to 225RWHP. With headers, chipped and with "extractors" that's about 319RWHP. However if the unit of measurement [HP] is correct he's only 10-15rwhp up on a stock Q45 and that's with a full exhaust and ECU. Either way his results on the dyno are pretty unbelievable... just for two different reasons...
Corey
Quote »The 90-93Q splits the round runner just after the injector nozzle into dual isolated oval tapering to round ports thru the head feeding each intake valve. [/quote]
Q45tech.....can we put a 90-93 intake on a 94-95 engine/car? This would not provide much benefit except to get us that extra HP boost in the higher RPM band compared to our 94-95 cars....but it might be an easy mod for us with a used intake from the salvage yard.
Q45tech.....can we put a 90-93 intake on a 94-95 engine/car? This would not provide much benefit except to get us that extra HP boost in the higher RPM band compared to our 94-95 cars....but it might be an easy mod for us with a used intake from the salvage yard.