Ignition Problems: I REALLY need help.

[Clawhammer]

This is a really long story, please be patient. I really appreciate anyone taking the time to actually read this and give me their thoughts.

Ok, my hog has always had the "click" starting problem, well while in my possession. The original owner reported the problem to me, and he could never fix it; he got a new battery and even replaced the starter twice.

So after I got tired of my clicking problem, I started searching for answers. It led me to the bolt on the solenoid...that goes to the battery. The bolt was stripped causing bad connections. I went and took the starter off the DOHC in my backyard and swapped solenoids (the starter casing was cracked or I'd have done the whole thing). Click problem went away.

For about a month. Then it came back. A few days later my battery died, kaput. Got a new one and everything was fine.

For a day. The very next day I started my car and a half second into cranking it cut off. Then it wouldn't even crank at all. I hear a slight electrical whirring and I think it's coming from the speakers so I open my door so I can bend down to get a good listen and that's when I hear it's coming from the motor. I open the hood and figure out it's coming from the starter, so I run inside to get a wrench to disconnect the battery. When I come back it's smells like something electrical is burning (obviously the starter). I disconnect the battery and let it sit for like 30 minutes, come back and reconnect everything and it works fine for 3 days.

The starter was probably running 3 minutes and I know by know means they're supposed to. So I get a new starter and put it in today. First try at starting it does like four clicks. I get out like ugh wtf I hate this car. So I stand around thinking/festering, get back in and start it and it's going fine. So I'm back to square 1...or so I think. I get down off the ramps and I'm sitting in the car setting all my audio settings and such when my dad comes out and to tell me something, so when I open the window I hear, somehow a noise over my obnoxiously loud exhaust, engine sounds, etc. a weird noise. Given the circumstances I jump out like wtf is that noise and start looking while my dad thinks I'm going crazy. I lift the hood up and ****, the NEW starter has been running this whole time. So I throw my dad the wrench and tell him to disconnect the battery while I shut off the car, and he's like jesus how did you hear that.

So I after reconnecting the battery I'm only getting clicks from the starter. So when it clicks I hold the key engaged and get my dad to tap the solenoid with a hammer (he's now part of the program hahaha what a sucker) and bam car starts up. Turn it off, turn it back on, turn it back off. Try to turn it back on and starter motor gets going but that's it. Dad taps the solenoid and it the motor stops.

Pull the starter out, go get a new one. But get the one I'm returning tested...bad solenoid. So I get the new one tested before I leave...worked great. Take it home and put it in...car starts REAL strong. But I can hear the starter motor winding down after each start...like man that's loud. My dad says it's not really anything to worry about. As a precaution I start the car 3 more times...on the third time the starter starts making a crazy rattling noise like it's got rod knock almost. Kill the motor and it stops, start the car back up...STARTER MOTOR STAYS ON. Kill the battery. YOU have GOT to be ****TING me.

After that lots of clicking, no starting. Tapping the starter does NOT help this time. I take the starter out and bring it back, they test it...tests beautifully. They tell me to check the teeth on my flywheel (which I checked and are fine). So they send me on my way. I get home and realize the starter gear is kicked out and spins freely...I could blow on it and spins (the starter I took out of the car is hard to spin the gear). With the last rays of sunlight shining on me, I decide to put my old starter back in so I can pull my car into my parents garage and call it a night.

I'm completely in the dark now (hehe). I have no idea. Ignition switch? Guess I'm gonna put a new one of those in...they're only like 30 bucks. Looks like there's 1 screw that holds the switch into the back of the lock assembly. Is something in the switch screwing up and causing the starter to stay on? Is there a relay for the starter somewhere that might be taking a **** on me?

Oh and I have an automagic so it's not the interlock relay causing the intial click, although I have bigger problems than that right now.

Please help. Me love you long time.

Oh and I'm stuck at my parent's house now and I have a big test Monday morning.
Modified by Clawhammer at 1:01 PM 10/14/2007

[mutiny]

You definitely have an electrical problem. You make it sound like the starter is getting stuck running sometimes? From what it looks like, the wiring goes from the ignition, to interlock relay (switch controlled by clutch interlock switch), some plugs, then the starter motor.

There also looks to be like a bypass that goes direct from the ignition to starter motor (but from the FSM I'm thinking since it is marked with "CN" its canadion models only?). Maybe you have a problem with the interlock relay or ignition switching, but at least now you know what you are dealing with.

edit: actually you know what, the interlock relay only checks to see if clutch switch is closed, it can't be the problem unless there is a short in the wiring causing the starter to get turned on. I'd bet its the ignition switch (it has to be, if its not youve got other wiring problems)

[Jerry A]

Make sure all your grounds are clean.inspect the flywheelDo voltage drop tests on all cables (battery)Use a factory starter.

[mutiny]

Make sure all your grounds are clean.inspect the flywheelDo voltage drop tests on all cables (battery)Use a factory starter.

Do you know what you are talking about lol? Starter is obviously grounded to be staying on for 3 minutes at a time. What does the flywheel have to do with the starter turning on? And if the same thing happens to 3 starters you would stop blaming the starter to be the problem....

Sorry claw I must have missed the fact it is an automatic the first time I read it over. It is still the same basic setup, but instead of going through the clutch interlock relay it just goes through inhibitor switching (checks for the gear to be in park or neutral). You're main culprit at this point is the ignition switch. Replace that and I'm sure you will be good to go

[Clawhammer]

Thanks for the replies. I ordered an ignition switch, cause it's the only other things I can think of, but has anyone ever heard of the starter staying running because of the igition switch?

And with this final new starter, what should I do? The gear is stuck out and won't go back in. Is something wrong with it? Or do I just need to put it back in and with some electricity it'll pull back in? Actually, when I had it tested the gear stayed out the entire time. Maybe I should get another one?

[E7-S14]

same thing happened to meturned out to be something wrong in my ignition switch.. and my starter was bad.. sounds the same in your case

I just temporarily bypassed the ignition switch.It seems to me like your ignition switch isn't telling the starter to stop running.. thus it keeps running.

the button simply controls the starter on command rather than letting the ignition switch do the work

I made a thread about this a while back...the starters you went thought are prob fine..I went through 2 brand new ones(all worked fine but i didn't know) before i realized my problem..

[mutiny]

you can see there cant be much that will cause the starter to do that. just trace it through that.

as for the starter, when you replace the ign switch just try your old starter and see what happens, and grab a new one if its no good

[Soravia]

I have a manual having some issues as well. The car would refuse to start at times and when I move it a bit (push start), even without putting the car in gear for push start, the car would start right up. I have new battery and new alternator that both checked out at 12V and 14V with lights and stereo turned on.

I also have an issue at times when I press on the gas in 1st and second gear the car would go crazy with the tech jumping up additional 1,500 rpm and then drop. Do you think it's my clutch slipping? But I don't have the car in gear when I start, it's always in neutral (with the clutch pressed down)The clutch switch seems to be working because I can hear the starter click when it fails to start.

[mutiny]

sounds like a clutch problem, or clutch slave... as for your starting problem, it could be different causes too, like the starter itself is bad or electrical problems. (are you saying that with the car in neutral, and rolling it will start? on its own?)

I have a manual having some issues as well. The car would refuse to start at times and when I move it a bit (push start), even without putting the car in gear for push start, the car would start right up. I have new battery and new alternator that both checked out at 12V and 14V with lights and stereo turned on.

I also have an issue at times when I press on the gas in 1st and second gear the car would go crazy with the tech jumping up additional 1,500 rpm and then drop. Do you think it's my clutch slipping? But I don't have the car in gear when I start, it's always in neutral (with the clutch pressed down)The clutch switch seems to be working because I can hear the starter click when it fails to start.

[vancouverbc]

ignition switch seems most likely cause of clawhammers problem. or maybe a short somewhere.

relays are supposed to click.

[vancouverbc]

Thanks for the replies. I ordered an ignition switch, cause it's the only other things I can think of, but has anyone ever heard of the starter staying running because of the igition switch?

And with this final new starter, what should I do? The gear is stuck out and won't go back in. Is something wrong with it? Or do I just need to put it back in and with some electricity it'll pull back in? Actually, when I had it tested the gear stayed out the entire time. Maybe I should get another one?

I dont know how they test starters but the gear i think should be moving if you have the solenoid moving. when you turn ignition to start you are supply power 12v+ to solenoid causing gears of starter to engage fly wheel. once engaged, the starter would start to spin. there has to be two sources of 12v+ and ground for solenoid to work. i think you can get the starter to spin with just ground and one 12v+ source(from ignition).ie the gear and solenoid dont move in this case.anyway, use two 12v+ sources and if the solenoid is moving your gears should be moving in and out.

Ignition Wire Location


Modified by vancouverbc at 4:38 PM 10/15/2007

[Clawhammer]

Wow your starter looks weird. And I've had my original starter, 3 reman's, and a starter off a 95 KA...none of them looked like that.

If I understand the starter right, there's a fork type dealy that kicks the gear out. My gear is stuck, so I think my starter is F'd.

So to update...I left off with I put my old starter that started burning in...and it's still in. Hasn't given me one problem and it's been started about 15 times. Hope I didn't just jynx myself. New ignition switch comes tomorrow. \o/

I think I'm gonna get a fresh starter with my new ignition switch (well I want to anyway since the gear is stuck on the new one)...well maybe the old starter didn't burn up too bad. Ugh.

[mutiny]

claw look at the diagram i posted earlier. the gear that turns the flywheel is on a solenoid shaft. when it receives 12v, the current causes the shaft to be pushed out (magnetic field).

then there is the other 12v source, the one that actually turns the gear to start the car.

however, since you said sometimes the car starts, then the gear has to be engaging with the flywheel to start. when the starter gets stuck spinning, that means the starter motor is receiving 12v but the solenoid is not getting power. in that case i still think it is an ignition switch problem. if it isnt, then you have a wiring problem.

[Clawhammer]

When I talk about the gear being stuck, I mean on the starter that is not currently in my car. The last new one I got, the gear on it got stuck out. The gear spins VERY freely compared to others, and will not go back in.

I guess this starter is different, the starter on my truck had a fork that when the solenoid engaged kicked the gear out to the flywheel. Since the gear is stuck, I figured something must be holding it out...right?



That can't be good...how am I even supposed to get it back in like that (assuming it doesn't somehow match perfectly back up with the flywheel).

[mutiny]

yea, looks like that starter is no good, look up in the sohc FSM, in electrical section, starter stuff i think EL-27 or something, it has a good description of what your problem is with the gear being stuck out like that

[Clawhammer]

Oh really? Let me check it out in the FSM provided to me by the most awesome guy in the universe.

[Clawhammer]

Well according to EL-19 it's f'd (my pinion spins BOTH directions freely, supposed to lock one direction). And according to EL-22 I should be able to push the pinion back in.

I guess that solves that.

[Clawhammer]

Ok so, with the old starter back in, over 25 perfect starts.

I put the new igntion switch in today....hopefully the problem never comes back. I like the feel of the new switch, nice and tight.

[Tr0uble]

Bad GroundBad Ignition SwitchBad Relay

Only 3 things it could be.

Any one of these could cause a power feedback loop keeping continuous power on the starter.

I would replace the Ign/Starter Relays, clean the grounds, and replace the ign switch. A bit over kill but less of a hassle with trial and error process.