If true, Obama has let me down...

[heliochrome85]

http://www.npr.org/templates/s...=1001

as a muslim in the US, I am all to aware of the precarious nature of my heritage and religion. Yet to prevent people of my faith from appearing next to a candidate is not only wrong, but is disappointing of both the candidate, and America in general. Give us your sick, your tired, your huddled masses, just inso far as they are white/black/latino. otherwise, DIAF. maybe one caused by one of our missles.



http://www.politico.com/news/s....html

[rn79870]

Unfortunitely a picture with Obama backed by those two women would have turned into an unfortunite and disrespectful tool for all anti-obamaites with an evil or political agenda. Neither the women, their religion, nor Obama deserve that. Perhaps it was a wise thing to do for all involved.

On the other hand, Obama should have made it very clear to the two women why they did what they did.

[C-Kwik]

Frankly, its a situation of being damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The real issue should be not that Obama's campaign decided it would be a bad idea to allow these women to stand up behind him. But rather, it should be questioned as to why enough Americans might find this problematic enough that the campaign would have to make such a decision.

It seems one of those situations where you have to hate the game, not the player...

[heliochrome85]

i agree. personally, id rather be damn'd if i do rather than damn'd if i dont. then again, im not running for office. its still a very serious misstep in the eyes of my community.

[HashiriyaS14]

Honestly, it sounds like an instance of a volunteer or two acting alone.

There's no way this is actually a policy of the campaign that they've thought out in advance because the backlash would be obvious to anyone with half a brain. Sounds like a volunteer just making an unfortunate snap decision.

[Cold_Zero]

Frankly, its a situation of being damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The real issue should be not that Obama's campaign decided it would be a bad idea to allow these women to stand up behind him. But rather, it should be questioned as to why enough Americans might find this problematic enough that the campaign would have to make such a decision.

It seems one of those situations where you have to hate the game, not the player...

Agreed. And further more I hate when people bring up "He's a secretly a Muslim." Give me a break people. The reason why I despise Obama's religion is not because he is a 'Secret Muslim' but because he attends a church that teaches and he himself embraces "Liberation Theology." One of the great distractions in American Christianity thanks to Liberal Protestantism-Catholicism.

[AZhitman]

After learning more and more about Islam, I find it reprehensible that he'd try to "distance" himself from these people.

He's just saying what he THINKS the voters want to hear.

NOTE: As much as people despise GWB for what he's done, he at least doesn't waver - He's steadfast, which I respect.

While I disagree with some of the fundamentals of Islam, I certainly don't consider all followers of the Prophet "the enemy" as the meia has led us to believe.

Obama's one step closer to having the whole flimsy house of cards come tumbling down.

I want to know WHERE he stands. NOW. Who is your Savior? Who is your Messiah? To whom do you pray, Obama? Speak up, as it's important that we know.

Nothing is as repugnant as a man who will deny or conceal his faith in pursuit of popularity.

I smell some FAIL on the horizon.

[C-Kwik]

personally, id rather be damn'd if i do rather than damn'd if i dont. then again, im not running for office. its still a very serious misstep in the eyes of my community.

I absolutely agree from an idealistic viewpoint. But if they are there to support his candidacy, then they should also realize that in order to put the candidate that they feel is the best man for the job into office, they need to deal with the reality that the candidate needs to secure the votes.

In this regard, I am much more disappointed by Americans than the candidate. Then again, I feel this way towards any resentment Americans have about the way the county is being run. After all, it is Americans who put these people in office in the first place.

[C-Kwik]

I want to know WHERE he stands. NOW. Who is your Savior? Who is your Messiah? To whom do you pray, Obama? Speak up, as it's important that we know.

Curious Greg. In what regards is this important? A man could say he believes in something, but live out his life in a manner that doesn't support that.

I too would like to know his political positions, but could give a crap about who he prays to. And this goes for any candidate.

[Cold_Zero]

In this regard, I am much more disappointed by Americans than the candidate.

I wouldnt be too hard on America. My congressional district voted to send a black Muslim to Congress to replace his Grandmother's vacant seat. He is affiliated with the Nation of Islam at that. I didnt vote for me because he and his Grandmother never really understood that the 7th Indiana Congressional district extends beyond Center Township. Basically, I am under represented in my own Congressional District.

[AZhitman]

Curious Greg. In what regards is this important? A man could say he believes in something, but live out his life in a manner that doesn't support that.

I too would like to know his political positions, but could give a crap about who he prays to. And this goes for any candidate.

It's all a matter of priorities.

For me, my decisions in life are (at least partially) guided by my spiritual beliefs. I'd expect the same from a candidate, unless he/she comes out and claims no faith whatsoever...

[heliochrome85]

that is true, to a point though. there are tons of people who run around their day to day life and never mention their religious affiliation. also, there are tons of athiests/agnostics, who have higher moral codes than "religious" people. what gets me about this country the most, is the channels like EWTN which basically prostheltize. While it is their right to do so, they do seem to be a springboard for "fundamentalist" christianity. I use the quotes because it isnt a getting back to basics christianity, its a strict reading from the bible, as pure fact, rather than general guidelines, sort of christianity. From my perspective, and brief experience, the people who seem to be the most bigoted, are the ones who attend church by changing a channel. You wanna wear your religion on your sleeve? go head. Its just disappointing that this country seems to believe, in part due to the right, that in order to govern effectively, you must attend church (not synogogue, or mosque) every day, and have to wear a 30 cent flag lapel pin that coincedentally is made in china. Its sickening.

[Cold_Zero]

that is true, to a point though. there are tons of people who run around their day to day life and never mention their religious affiliation. also, there are tons of athiests/agnostics, who have higher moral codes than "religious" people.

At the risk of starting a full blown religious discussion, I must temper what I say. It is interesting that people associate moralism with religion. I tend to think of religion as more of binding customs than of moralism. It pains me to no end when people boil Christianity down to a set of morals or moralism. If that were the case, there would have been no need for the Gentiles to stop adhering to the Noahide laws (seriously). BTW, do you practice Islam and if so, where in Indy do you go to Mosque?

Quote »what gets me about this country the most, is the channels like EWTN which basically prostheltize. While it is their right to do so, they do seem to be a springboard for "fundamentalist" christianity. I use the quotes because it isnt a getting back to basics christianity, its a strict reading from the bible, as pure fact, rather than general guidelines, sort of christianity. [/quote]You have to enjoy the irony in relating Roman Catholicism (EWTN is a Romanist television station) with fundamentalism. It was and still is Christian Fundamentalism that is staunchly anti Roman Catholic. You will never know who much you brightened my day up with that comment.

Quote »From my perspective, and brief experience, the people who seem to be the most bigoted, are the ones who attend church by changing a channel. You wanna wear your religion on your sleeve? go head. [/quote]I dont see 'people wearing their religion on their sleeve as a bad thing in this country. I invite it and am always engaged in discussion about it. I work with many Hindu and Sikh practitioners and have always been fond of studying world religions.

Quote »Its just disappointing that this country seems to believe, in part due to the right, that in order to govern effectively, you must attend church (not synogogue, or mosque) every day, and have to wear a 30 cent flag lapel pin that coincedentally is made in china. Its sickening.[/quote]It does amaze me how distracted America gets when it comes to politics.

[heliochrome85]

wow, i didnt realize how ridiculous and school boy ranty that was. thanks for looking past that...1) yes, and i attend the Al-Fajr Mosque on 116th in Fishers. There are three, but that is the only that is mostly arab.2.) Oddly enough, in 24 hours im going to be at the Vatican. What a coincidence.3.) I believe religion is a personal thing that no one should judge you on. its between you and whatever higher power you belive in. without further treading on the "Religion ist verboten" rule, suffice it to say, it irks me to no end that we base the most important decision we can make as citizens, on which version of the same basic tenents, a person subscribes to. bible~~Torah~~Koran. same idea, three slightly different interpretations.

to use an internet saying...America is full of FAIL.

[Cold_Zero]

I didnt know there was a mosque on 116th street. I knew that there is an Antiochian Orthodox Church on 116th that is going in. It will be nice when that church is finished and Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox church is finished. Then Hamilton County will host both Greek-fest and the Middle Eastern Festival and I will be in heaven.bud

[heliochrome85]

yeah, its right behind that super target thats up there. its pretty sweet with an accreddited full time elementary school. i cant believe i lived in indianapolis for a year and never met you. we even had a nico meet... some other time then.

[audtatious]

It pains me to no end when people boil Christianity down to a set of morals or moralism.

It pains me when atheists detract from moral teachings of religion. Instead they act as if laws themselves teach morals or morals are instinctive via our genes. While I do agree that Christianity boils down to more than a moral code, it is inherentley teaching morality based on scripture.

3.) I believe religion is a personal thing that no one should judge you on. its between you and whatever higher power you belive in. without further treading on the "Religion ist verboten" rule, suffice it to say, it irks me to no end that we base the most important decision we can make as citizens, on which version of the same basic tenents, a person subscribes to. bible~~Torah~~Koran. same idea, three slightly different interpretations.

While some may make decisions based on religion, the majority probably only see that as a passing "check mark". Right now, people are trying to determine who the candidate is and what they stand for. Obama has shown and stated himself as a Christian while potentially being a muslim; he preaches how he wants to make America better for the citizens and the global community yet he has a wife who seems to dislike America and he attended a Christian church for 20 years that spewed racial seperatism and anti-American viewpoints. He has hung out and associated with radicals, had a communist mentor and he has campaign offices with Che` Guevara flags hanging. As far as the flag pin and the National anthem, there are plenty of Americans who take them very seriously and having someone who is "whimsicle" about them is concerning.

We should question every aspect of Obama from religion to viewpoints because he sure seems to be like the tides and simply wanting to "be all" for the majority without laying out who he really is. Right now, to me, he is Mr "Hope and Change" without any form of definition.

[Cold_Zero]

Heliochrome85,Now that I have had more time to think about this issue and reflect, Could it be that the Candidates are just as much a part of the problem than 'Religious People?"Case in point,http://www.directionstoorthodo....html

John McCain meets with a Greek Orthdoox Archbishop.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2...shtml

And Obama meets with prominant Mega Church Evangelical Leaders.

Do the Candidates make religion a factor because of their courting or is it the other way around?

[Cold_Zero]

It pains me when atheists detract from moral teachings of religion. Instead they act as if laws themselves teach morals or morals are instinctive via our genes. While I do agree that Christianity boils down to more than a moral code, it is inherentley teaching morality based on scripture.

Matt, I won't drag this discussion into a full blown debate on Christianity and I have been skirting the subforum rules to remain compliant with them. As my wife said, "There are even moral atheists that follow the same morals codes of the Bible (i.e. The Law), but that doesnt make them Christian."

Also St. Paul in the beginning of the book of Romans refers to a "Natural Law" that men have written on their hearts. I think what you are trying to get at is moral relativism?

And I am sure that this is a debate that we probably need to take offline, but Christianity while it does contain a Moral Law, (i.e. The Mosaic Law) is not the whole sum of the binding morals.

[audtatious]

No and I won't get into it either.

[HashiriyaS14]

Its just disappointing that this country seems to believe, in part due to the right, that in order to govern effectively, you must attend church (not synogogue, or mosque) every day, and have to wear a 30 cent flag lapel pin that coincedentally is made in china. Its sickening.

This is the quote of the century.

Obama has shown and stated himself as a Christian while potentially being a muslim

Huh? How is he "potentially a Muslim"?

[C-Kwik]

he preaches how he wants to make America better for the citizens and the global community yet he has a wife who seems to dislike America and he attended a Christian church for 20 years that spewed racial seperatism and anti-American viewpoints.

I attended church almost every sunday growing up until I was out of high school. I don't believe in God. Perhaps he exists, but until I am shown compelling evidence of such...anyways, my point is that listening to someone doesn't mean they form opinions for me too...

[rn79870]

Okay guys.... I'm afraid we're getting a little too close to a religions thread here. This means that Greg, Matt and Andy are going to rake me over the coals, then stomp all over my grave and feed my body parts to the sharks. I don't like that all that much.

[audtatious]

Huh? How is he "potentially a Muslim"?

Based on the confusion some may feel due to reported rumors. I think it's a crock of crap but others don't.

I attended church almost every sunday growing up until I was out of high school. I don't believe in God. Perhaps he exists, but until I am shown compelling evidence of such...anyways, my point is that listening to someone doesn't mean they form opinions for me too...

Point taken. Question would then be why would you stay 20 years in a church where you did not agree with the main story line? If I were in a church and the preacher started in on blacks or others I would leave during the first sermon and not 20 years later after the press started talking about it.

[Cold_Zero]

Okay guys.... I'm afraid we're getting a little too close to a religions thread here. This means that Greg, Matt and Andy are going to rake me over the coals, then stomp all over my grave and feed my body parts to the sharks. I don't like that all that much.

Cool! Can I watch. J/K

Seriously, back on topic everyone. (this goes more for myself than anyone else).

[HashiriyaS14]

Point taken. Question would then be why would you stay 20 years in a church where you did not agree with the main story line?

Sadly, he likely did it to buy credibility with the black community in that region, as he was as the time running for local (state legislature) office.

Not that I necessarily feel that's the right sort of thing to do, but I suspect that it was the reason.

[audtatious]

Sadly, he likely did it to buy credibility with the black community in that region, as he was as the time running for local (state legislature) office.

Not that I necessarily feel that's the right sort of thing to do, but I suspect that it was the reason.

And I agree that is probably why he joined and stayed with the church that long. Which again leads me to ask who he really is and what he really stands for. What will he really do in office if he feels it is OK to be a part of something that he does not believe in just because it will give him a political thumbs up from others.

[AZhitman]

there are tons of people who run around their day to day life and never mention their religious affiliation. also, there are tons of athiests/agnostics, who have higher moral codes than "religious" people.

Let's also be careful not to label all people of faith as "religious". I hate that word.

My faith is as strong as anyone's, probably much more so than the clowns you see proselytizing on TV, but I am by no means "religious". I don't do dogma, I don't do rituals and I don't preach at people.

Remember when we were talking about a "universal right and wrong"? THAT is "natural law". Many don't comprehend it, and yet morality as we know it (which is universal across the majority of legitimate world religions) is a pure function of that "natural law".

Unfortunately, we have come to try to rely on men (who are flawed) to interpret it for us, because we're always trying to find that damn loophole.

See, when someone doesn't LIKE living under "natural law", they go crying to the courts. And regardless of the outcome, the natural law hasn't changed. The law of the courts might have, but natural law didn't budge.

Sorry, didn't mean to tear off on a tangent...

[audtatious]

Where does "Natural Law" come from? Seems without something pressing morals and morality the world would all be about "I'm gonna get mine". Kinda like the way things are going now.

I am with you on the religion perspective. I'm not active in the church culture yet feel that the teaching along with rules/law helped solidify what was right and wrong in society and that was instilled in me as a child.

Or am I off base because I've missed something and don't understand what is being discussed as a whole (not the first time).

[Jager]

I know that I remeber growing up being taught the faith of my parents then they allowed me to choose my way and they hoped and still do that I will agree with their beliefs, however my faith and theirs is a personal faith, I wonder when we as americans started expecting our politicians to profess a religion to get a vote, Maybe I just wasnt taught that or havent found some of our previous presidents exhorting their faith, but I dont remember much more then a passing statement of what the candidates faith was, and if endorsements where made it wasnt so divisive as it is now. maybe because the media wasnt unfettered as they are now? it seems we have a pressing need to know the slightest details of a persons life and if a candidate didnt use the bathroom 4 times a day he/she is unamerican? (exaggerated idea)

why are we so invasive now and is that necessarily a good thing?

to be on track with the OP (great question BTW) It seems to me that we are so hyper sensative to arab americans or missteps publically that we pussyfoot around our actual beliefs, GHWB and before seemed to pose with enemies and allies alike to promote the idea of communication even if we were fighting or at odds. certainly I dont see us sitting down and having a photoshoot with iran, but cmon not having a photo op due to terrorism or w/e the "real" reason was? I think we have gone way overboard.... some political handler is getting an asschewing i bet.