I think I made a discovery about our cars and e85

[Patarach]

Well I was tuning my car for e85 and I realized that to obtain the correct air furl ratio you need about 30% more fuel, this is already common knowledge though.

I then realized that the ka's stock 260-270cc injectors are about 30% smaller than sr20 370cc's

I am pretty sure that to convert our cars to e85 (on a stock or near stock setup) all you would need to do is replace the 270s with 370s, maybe advance the timing a tad (for more power) and let the closed loop to the rest.

If someone already pointed this out you can just omit this post.

[98blackbell]

Yes the e85 gas does take more volume to produce the same calorie content needed for power. Not only that if left alone unused will pull moisture into the fuel system and harm certain types of fuel delivery systems.

BRING BACK THE LEAD!

If you have or are using leaded fuel (race gas) the e85 will take the tarnish out of the gas tanks and lines and run thru your motor making it slugish and misfire.

Many older vehicles that run a mechanical fuel deliver system with archaic jets, nozzles, floats etc need up to go up 2 additional jet sizes to make the same power. Rather on idle mixtures or main circuits.

I have experienced .2 difference in the 1/4 mile in running 93 octane with alcohol then switching to 100 octane leaded fuel. this is same day experience, same day conditions.

Alcohol sucks!

[Patarach]

You are correct alchohol does absorb water and it also has less btu per unit. And it is more corrosive than gasoline.

But the fact is lead ruins cats and this emission thing is going to get really serious in a few years if everything the govt planned falls through. With E85 I have had a lot less trouble passing the sniffer on hc and co, the ones a lot of us hava a problem with.

On the same note I wonder if lead additive (the stuff you buy next to the injector cleaner) is just a lubricant substitute or also an octane booster.

[Justinians_2:40]

I guess this may be off topic of the original post, but I've got to disagree with you 98blackbell. Alcohol/ethanol rocks, it's only negative is being more corrosive (which can be accounted for when designing fuel system), and requiring more fuel (only a negative because it means more weight).

Ethanol rocks because it is much more resistant to knock, which means you can actually tune your ignition timing based on MBT (max brake torque, the right way) as opposed to just tuning for just before knock. It also runs cooler, much cooler, which is great for turbo cars, it pulls a ton of heat out of the air via the enthalpy of vaporization.

Also, due to ethanol being a self oxidizer, without making any other changes to the engine except the extra fuel flow, you will make about 10% more power than on 93.

Oh yea, and it's a lot cheaper.

[whyteboi]

youll also need to take into account a fuel pump to deliver the increased volume... something good too, e85 will eat them, including walbro pumps... a higher end pump would be fine tho

[Patarach]

youll also need to take into account a fuel pump to deliver the increased volume... something good too, e85 will eat them, including walbro pumps... a higher end pump would be fine tho

Are you sure about that? Do you have personal experience with this?

[liquid_cool]

allthou E85 is cheeper per gallon at the pump..doesent mean its cheeper to run!...if your using "for oem converts " 30% more fuel..well you just made it close to the cost or regular unleaded..if your modifyed then you need about 55% more fuel...so thats a gallon and a half - vs- a gallon of regular gas...i just dont see the savings in the convertion.....as for the lead that used to be in gasoline...it was intended to lubricate the valves and pistons rings back then....i do run ..from time to time....111 leaded..and man..smooth as silk with no clapping valves noise from my duel springs and 272's.

[CrazyInteg]

allthou E85 is cheeper per gallon at the pump..doesent mean its cheeper to run!...if your using "for oem converts " 30% more fuel..well you just made it close to the cost or regular unleaded..if your modifyed then you need about 55% more fuel...so thats a gallon and a half - vs- a gallon of regular gas...i just dont see the savings in the convertion.

Is this from your actual experience, or are you just making this stuff up?

I went from 16 MPG on gasoline to 12 MPG on E85. So I lost 25% mileage. On my turbo SR20 I gained 49 horsepower to the wheels. The price difference between premium and E85 is more than 25%, so every mile I drive I am saving money.

Now if you're talking about just dropping in some different injectors into a stock KA then there really won't be much for power gains and you will use more fuel. However if you are able to buy E85 cheaply, it could be worth it (but I doubt it).

[Patarach]

Surprised this thread came back up but I'll respond. Our cars are closed loop and will change variables in order to achieve the correct stoichiometric a/f ratio (granted it is for gasoline but its still around 1 Lamda no matter what) what no matter what injectors are in it and with e85 it takes that extra fuel to achieve this ratio. The power gains you will see on a stock KA will be from being able to advance the base timing to ~MBT due to e85's ~105 octane. On my turbo KA I went from about 22mpg driving conservatively to 17 mpg driving conservatively and. In my area E85 is 2.79, 91 octane is about 3.65.

[CrazyInteg]

The power gains you will see on a stock KA will be from being able to advance the base timing to ~MBT due to e85's ~105 octane. On my turbo KA I went from about 22mpg driving conservatively to 17 mpg driving conservatively and. In my area E85 is 2.79, 91 octane is about 3.65.

So you lost a little over 20% in gas mileage, but the price difference is about 24%.
(Currently $2.74 for E85 and $3.95 around Omaha, so the savings is even higher)

Gained some power (much easier with the turbo), save some money on fuel costs, but have to fill up more often.

Thanks for your information Patarach. It's nice to see other people using the fuel and commenting on it.

[liquid_cool]

there is more to this than you think....rite now..for fuel cost it is still the same argument...yes you can make more power with it..but you use 2 times as much..so 1 gallon of gas @$4.00 a gallon due to the oil market..and $2.65 here in vegas for E85..so thats $5.35 of E85 used vs- $4.00 if gas was 4.00 a gallon....when you fill up the difference per usage would be 17. bucks a average usage for the double fuel of E85 -vs- 1 tank of regular or supream at $4. a gallon...if you fill 2 times a week you loose $34. bucks a week ..thats $147.32 a month on average in E85 ...or 7660.75 a year difference by using E85 over gasoline....i dont see any savings here at all...besides this point..there is the tuning point...you must constantly tune for E85 due to the numbers requierd to maintain a stoic mix...this means a good ecu reflash..(preferd) or a stand alone or piggy ..the stand alone and piggy both cannot ajudt for inclamate wheather..this could ither run you rich or lean..again..not worth it..this is just my opinion and i do see a furture for the fuel....but at this point..the cost does not make this a viable fuel substatute for me at this time.

[CrazyInteg]

there is more to this than you think....rite now..for fuel cost it is still the same argument...yes you can make more power with it..but you use 2 times as much..so 1 gallon of gas @$4.00 a gallon due to the oil market..and $2.65 here in vegas for E85..so thats $5.35 of E85 used vs- $4.00 if gas was 4.00 a gallon....when you fill up the difference per usage would be 17. bucks a average usage for the double fuel of E85 -vs- 1 tank of regular or supream at $4. a gallon...if you fill 2 times a week you loose $34. bucks a week ..thats $147.32 a month on average in E85 ...or 7660.75 a year difference by using E85 over gasoline....i dont see any savings here at all...besides this point..there is the tuning point...you must constantly tune for E85 due to the numbers requierd to maintain a stoic mix...this means a good ecu reflash..(preferd) or a stand alone or piggy ..the stand alone and piggy both cannot ajudt for inclamate wheather..this could ither run you rich or lean..again..not worth it..this is just my opinion and i do see a furture for the fuel....but at this point..the cost does not make this a viable fuel substatute for me at this time.

Folks this post is complete s***. Trolling or not, please do not listen to this poster.

Multiple people that run E85 have posted in this thread. ECU's don't have to be constantly retuned. The costs of fuel vary throughout the country (and the world).

My specific case....I switched to E85 and gained 49 horsepower to the wheels on my turbo SR20.
Gasoline was 16 MPG at $3.85 per gallon. That's 24.0 cents per mile
E85 is 12 MPG at $2.74 per gallon. That's 22.8 cents per mile

E85 is cheaper to run and I gained 49 horsepower to the wheels with my setup. I had to buy 4 fuel injectors, a new chip for my ECU and a couple of dyno pulls to adjust the fuel pressure regulator. That's it. The ECU programming was done by a member on this forum. I still have my old injectors and my old Enthalpy chips if I ever want to switch back to gasoline.

I am very happy. I have been running on E85 for 3 years

[liquid_cool]

there is more to this than you think....rite now..for fuel cost it is still the same argument...yes you can make more power with it..but you use 2 times as much..so 1 gallon of gas @$4.00 a gallon due to the oil market..and $2.65 here in vegas for E85..so thats $5.35 of E85 used vs- $4.00 if gas was 4.00 a gallon....when you fill up the difference per usage would be 17. bucks a average usage for the double fuel of E85 -vs- 1 tank of regular or supream at $4. a gallon...if you fill 2 times a week you loose $34. bucks a week ..thats $147.32 a month on average in E85 ...or 7660.75 a year difference by using E85 over gasoline....i dont see any savings here at all...besides this point..there is the tuning point...you must constantly tune for E85 due to the numbers requierd to maintain a stoic mix...this means a good ecu reflash..(preferd) or a stand alone or piggy ..the stand alone and piggy both cannot ajudt for inclamate wheather..this could ither run you rich or lean..again..not worth it..this is just my opinion and i do see a furture for the fuel....but at this point..the cost does not make this a viable fuel substatute for me at this time.

Folks this post is complete bullsh*t. Trolling or not, please do not listen to this poster.

Multiple people that run E85 have posted in this thread. ECU's don't have to be constantly retuned. The costs of fuel vary throughout the country (and the world).

My specific case....I switched to E85 and gained 49 horsepower to the wheels on my turbo SR20.
Gasoline was 16 MPG at $3.85 per gallon. That's 24.0 cents per mile
E85 is 12 MPG at $2.74 per gallon. That's 22.8 cents per mile

E85 is cheaper to run and I gained 49 horsepower to the wheels with my setup. I had to buy 4 fuel injectors, a new chip for my ECU and a couple of dyno pulls to adjust the fuel pressure regulator. That's it. The ECU programming was done by a member on this forum. I still have my old injectors and my old Enthalpy chips if I ever want to switch back to gasoline.

I am very happy. I have been running on E85 for 3 years

Im glad your happy with your tune someone else did for you...as i stated "It is not a viable fuel source forme at this time" as i tune everything my self..as a matter fact..i do all the work on my vehicles myself....as for my statement about E85 vs gasoline...out here the benifit is not finacially viable due to the limited availibility of the fuel and the cost that goes with availibility...supply and demand bud...basic ecoomics...now to your flaming issue troll...you have 71 post's..and you jump to a conclution about someone by ready ONE post you disagree with...ive been on here many years...and ive helped many a member...including rebuilds for free for vegas locals...so dont try and flame untill you know...my rep with the members speeks for it's self....now please come to nicco with your own point of view, but be constructive at the same time.

[Patarach]

I appreciate your input I don't think its necessary to call you a troll or say you post is bs but I disagree with you. I also tune and build all my own projects. As far as tuning to difference in temperature the ecu is closed loop so its going to see a lean / rich. e85 and 91 octane are both 1 lambda for a stoich reading while cruising so the ecu is going to correct that to a certain extent.

There are three e85 stations within 5 miles of my house, so my availability is not a problem.

Everytime I tune for e85 with a wideband I do average almost twice as much fuel under full boost, but when cruising its typically around 20-30% more and my fuel mileage does not show that I used twice as much fuel with e85 so I would say its not exactly correct to say twice as much fuel.