I seemed to have changed my mind.

[Pitts]

Now that I'm making more money and getting more hours (plus my Snap-On bill is getting smaller), I decided I won't be doing a NA2T conversion. Instead, I've decided to spend more money to make myself cry tears of joy every time I start her up. RB25DET swap. I've been reading a bit of swap threads (and will continue throughout the night). But there is one thing that I am hoping someone can help me out with, as wiring anything more that a couple switches and relays start to frighten me, I need to know what to expect when wiring everything. I'm hoping that I just swap the everything (wiring harness and ems) over with minimal rewiring. So, my question is, will my Z31 gauge cluster (analog) work with the RB ems? I don't care too much about whether the speedometer/odometer works as I've got gps on my phone and it tells me my current speed and the speed limits. I've tried looking around a bit to see if someone answered what exactly I'd need to do for wiring other things up (gauge cluster, fuel pump, relay box, fuse box, etc) with no luck. It won't probably be till next summer that I have everything ready and a place to work.

[evildky]

Most Nissan CTS's are the same, so that should work if you can get the right wire from the engine harness to the right wire in the chassis loom. I don't know if you car has the cable or electronic speed sensor but the bung on the tailshaft of all nissan transmissions is the same so you can swap whatever over. A 6 cylinder has the same number of ignition events again just getting the right signal to the right wire. Nissan used 2 different oil pressure senders, a 1 wire and a 2 wire, the good news is I'm pretty sure the 2 wire works in place of the one wire but either way they screw into the same bung. Charging system works the same. So there isn't a lot to the gauge's. Of course if you could come up with a 200ZR harness it should plug and play assuming everything is in the same side. Wiring specialties sells a bunch of adapter harnesses, but I doubt they sell one made to fit the Z31 but they do have a universal To get the engine up a going you'd just have to work out all the gauge connections form their harness to the chassis harness.

[Pitts]

That's a headache I can live with. Haha. I actually found wiring specialties about an hour after posting this. They have a waiting harness for Datsun's in general. They list models up to the 280Z and more. I tried emailing them but never got an answer.

I also found out in my further research that using the Z32 ecu is the best way to go. I'll probably upgrade everything to that after a while for tuning purposes. One thing I'm trying to work out still is what to do with the trans harness (such as if I can cut it and be good or otherwise).

It seems the easiest things for the swap are either an arm and a leg or near impossible to find (such as the 200ZR front cross member and trans mount). Luckily the first swap thread I read gave a worthwhile suggestion (and saves a ton of money) by welding 1/4" plates on the front cross member (where the mounts bolt into) and drilled new holes about 2" inwards. Bolted right up. From what I seem to have understood from his thread, he needed to swap over the 200ZR oil pan for some reason. Still got to find some more info as always. But he did some simple fabrication and dealt with the motor and trans mount situations for about $80 in steel and a poly mounts. Much more affordable compared to the $700 I've seen for the ZR cross member and trans mount.

Luckily, here in my town we have someone who can shorten my drive shaft and rebalance it. Benefit to living in a truck dominated town? Haha.

I'd like to use the trans that comes with the RB25DET, but for a 5 speed, it raises the overall cost by nearly a grand from what I could see. I was able to find out that the T5 will bolt right up after removing a dowel pin and slightly grinding one of the bell housing bolt holes over about 1/2". Very quick and easy work with my die grinder and a carbide bit.

Unfortunately it's hard to find a good motor import company that always delivers a solid product. Its all a hit and miss in one way or another. Enough so that EBay is just slightly less reliable. However, I did find one on EBay that had it's compression test videos with solid numbers from 175-200 (175-182 for the first 3 cylinders and 192-200 the last 3). Kinda worries me about the sudden change in compression, but like I said, its a hit and miss.

Would anyone happen to know a reputable engine importer? Preferably one that lists its current stock online as well as with a price? I work grave yards and I can't always call around for prices.

[G-E]

The only 200zr specific part you need is the oil pan, the rest you can custom fab easily enough, my rb25det swap uses a z31 non-turbo crossmember and new engine brackets to reach the mounts...

I also had a custom turbo manifold made divided T4, but you can pick up any top mount ebay special for <$300 to make life easier

Just keep in mind, whatever you think the swap will cost, triple it to get a closer figure

[Pitts]

On a budget, I've estimated $4500 to do a decent swap (keeping my trans and doing the fan work myself). This includes the fmic, new rad with electric fans, fluids, plugs, etc. Basically to get it running properly. Of course I'll have to do some other small things such as bracing and a torque dampener (just as a precaution), but that isn't required to run it.

I understand that I can either get lucky and find a ZR pan or buy a custom made one. But one thing I'm still trying to understand better (people aren't very clear) is people mention having to swap the sump and pick-up tube in order to get the ZR pan to work. Maybe you can shed some light there if you wouldn't mind.

I've also read that people have cut up the RB25/26 oil pan around the lip for mounting the pan and flipped it around 180 degrees to bypass needing to find a ZR pan or buying one.

Best deal I have seen for a fabricated pan is from Enjuku for $500. If I can just do some cutting and welding on the RB25 oil pan to make it work, I'd rather do that. I'm not afraid of work. Once I have everything ready for the swap, I'm going to take a week off of work and spend about 5 days ripping out the VG, doing fan work, and installing everything back in. I've done swaps in a FWD GM in less time (including dropping the subframe, removing the harness, separating the front suspension, and more). 5 days, all the parts, a friend, and beer. Sounds reasonable considering he has done a lot of swaps as well.

[evildky]

For $4500 I could buy a Z31 and have over 400whp! Hell I did 315 whp for $2k including the cost of the car! You really don't want to use the T5, get the n/a trans or better yet the 30a, The Z31 T5 has a neckdown in the input shaft where it breaks when you add lots of power and traction.

[Pitts]

I already processed out everything to get the Z31 at max boost on the stock T3. It would be about $5k on the nose. Rebuild turbo, stronger clutch, new seals, new gaskets, new brakes, new struts, nistune, mercades 420SEL (I think) injectors, cleaning stock injectors for now, good fmic and piping, plus some other things all to get 400 rwhp reliably. Granted I'd also get some goodies off of it like the sway bars and the hub assemblies for more wheel choices. But in order to have her running the stock turbo with good brakes and the other necessary components, I'm looking $1700 including the parts car. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice. If I cannot find a good engine for the money, because I don't want to spend $2000 (w/ shipping) to get a blown motor, something is screaming at me to replace the struts, brakes, and get new wheels. Then another part of me is contemplating on a 1/2JZGTE swap. Of course, like most of us, money is the only thing holding me back from doing it right away.

[evildky]

The same items on the RB need upgraded to reach your power goals. We assume you have a VG to start with as it comes with the car. Here is a list of things you have to replace no matter which engine you use.

Intercooler, you'll need either way and either way will be a custom setup
Fuel injectors, the RB comes with small injectors that'll need upgrading to reach your goals same as the VG.
Engine management, The RB will need a reflash, piggyback, romulator or standalone same as the VG.
Clutch, You said to save money you were gonna buy an auto so you'll still need to buy a clutch, the stock VG30ET will hold a lot, 400 might be a bit past the limit but it would get you around for a while.
Turbo, the RB actually comes with a smaller turbo than the VG30ET either way to hit 400 whp they both need upgraded.
Exhaust, you need this either way.
Intake, again doesn't matter you'll need to pipe something up.

Here are some things that you might need.
Engine parts, If your VG is healthy it needs nothing, whatever it does need you can get at any parts store, If you buy a miles unknown pallet motor you really don't know what you're getting and might need lots of parts that you can get online but they are not as cheap as VG parts.

Things the RB swap needs that the VG does not.
Flywheel, you said you'd save money by buying an auto so you'll have to buy a flywheel.
Engine harness, you'll have to buy or modify this for the RB.
Transmission, saving money to use the VG trans means you still need to modify the trans.
Engine mounts, you have to make, modify or buy mounts.
Oil pan, The RB20 pan fits the chassis or you have to modify another RB pan.

The VG's cast pistons might not be the best nissan made but at 400 whp on a good tune they can in fact survive, thats pretty much the limit but plenty of people have done it. of course you could roll around at 350 whp for a while then build your forged bottom end later, or better yet build the whole project piece by piece instead of all at once.I'm not trying to talk you out of RB I just want you to be clear that you can make as much power cheaper with the VG, the only real cost difference would be the Forged pistons, $6-800 for a set plus a couple hundred for bearings and gaskets, is still a lot less than the purchase price of the RB, which itself might require hundreds of dollars worth of repairs not to mention all the aforementioned things to make the conversion.

[Pitts]

I don't remember saying I'd use an auto trans. I think that is what the other guy said to use as it was stronger (on my phone during lunch break, so I'm not too inclined to go back through the thread).

I know the basic stuff will need to still get done, but all in all, the prices are going to be close to each other +/-$1000. The one draw back to the RB is the price for engine internals. It's a great engine stock (which I'd leave that stock for some time) and there is a much bigger aftermarket (forged especially) availability. But to get 400rwhp from the RB, I'd be looking closer to $7-8k total. What I was trying to say earlier is that for the same price almost as a 400 rwhp with the VG, I could do a stock RB swap. If I made more money, I wouldn't think twice about the swap. But living in Montana without a current CDL and all the local mine jobs taken, I make just under $9.50 an hour (granted cost of living is cheap here. $1000 will pay all the bills and rent as well as food). Regardless, I want to do the swap, but thinking about it more, it is kind of up in the air because if the rings go bad or a valve gets bent some how (even before I get it), I won't have $1500 to buy the parts for a while. But I'm also resourceful. Either swap (VG NA2T or RB, I'm looking $4-5k for a reliable setup.

[evildky]

My mistake, you said you'd buy an RB without trans which means it's a crapshoot as to if it comes with a flywheel or not. People tend to forget most of the stuff needed to make power from the VG will still be needed to make power from the RB. The difference is you have to buy the RB to start so cost of admission is automatically higher then there will be some additional items needed for the conversion making it that much more expensive to swap, it's not a bad motor it's just not a cheap motor. The RB does have stouter connecting rods like it's forbearer the L6 as the rod journals on the crank have a lot more room for a beefy rod thanks to the longer inline 6 configuration which unfortunately move the center of gravity up and forward.

My point was that if money is a concern the VG is a LOT cheaper to build unless you have 600 whp power goals. I also distrust pallet motors as I've had more than one bad one. Notice I said "pallet motor" if you get a front cut which costs a LOT more you know the mileage and it has the body around it to protect it in shipping, also they tend to try to preserve as much of the body as possible so they are far more gentle with the front cuts, and the cost a lot more! The pallet motors are milage unknown, condition unknown, test it all you want ship it across an ocean crammed in a metal box stacked on and under a hundred other motors and chances are you're gonna have some busted external bits possibly worse. I'd rather go to the local scrap yard or buy a running parts car, or buy a good running builder car. You can also start with a running stock Z31T, add and intercooler and boost controller and make 250-275 whp reliably all day long then as money allows you can upgrade the fuel, management and turbo which are all maxed out at that point and take it up to the limit of the stock internals, around 400 whp, then build a better bottom end to allow for more boost and more power.

As far as aftermarket goes, most everything is a one off, sure you can order Forged pistons in a variety of flavors for the RB form a catalog but for the same money you can have custom forged pistons made to your specifications, you just have to know what to order. Engine bolt ons is the only real difference, RB's have a huge aftermarket of intake and exhaust manifolds, the VG has a small selection from small boutique manufacturers which makes it unique and better IMHO.

[Pitts]

Front clips are certainly the best way to go. If you got $4k to drop like it's nothing. Haha. That's why whenever I price out anything, I always leave a 25% cost error. I'm very good at remember and calculating parts together. So for a $3500 RB swap, I did forget the flywheel and when doing that, might as well get a stronger clutch. Boom, $750 right there. Which accounts for the extra 25% cost error. I calculate my car parts like my lumber, whenever doing any repairs, always add 10% of what you're buying because a stud or two might have some massive bowing and that 10% helped save your a** and time.

[G-E]

evildky is right, your $4500 budget will get you way more than you want.... >400hp on the stock vg30 and a bigger turbo, with new injectors, clutch, and nistune, should cost you around $2k, even if you throw in basic maintenance work, that's still less than $500 more

Doing the rb swap is going to cost you more like $3k in parts, all the little things you needed for the vg build (clutch/injectors/tuning...), plus stuff you didn't think of, not including custom fab work, expensive manifolds, intakes, oil pan... and you still potentially have all the maintenance items to cover

I can guarantee you in simple language, that you are overestimating the cost of vg upgrades, and the rb swap will cost you twice as much to achieve the same horsepower

BUT I'm not saying "don't do it", just that your reasoning and internal debates are all wrong

[Pitts]

New Mercedes injectors are about $400
Stronger clutch (and flywheel, might as well when down there) $650-700
Nistune is about $550 (can't solder that well, so I'd send out plus shipping)
Bigger turbo is about $1100 (turbonetics)

Maybe a price of $2k used. But why save $800 at that point? Better safe than sorry. It's possible that those things cost $2000 5-7 years ago. But even getting new injectors from RockAuto, its closer to $3k

[G-E]

I got a low mileage gt35r for $650, I got almost new 630cc deka injectors for $200 (even cleaning would only add $150), brand new dxdracing clutch $380, and reground my flywheel for $40... I have no idea why you're stuck on mercedes injectors or a "new" turbonetics turbo

I don't know where you're looking, but all the wrong places for sure...

Let me make a recommended list for you staying with the vg, and one for the rb... I'll round up

VG:
clutch $400
injectors $300
fuel rails + fpr + hoses $300-500
holset hx35/40 sized turbo $250-400 (or rebuild factory T3 to a stage3 60-1 for $260)
custom downpipe + exhaust $500-800
nistune $450-550
reground cams $200
upgraded cam springs $150
turbo swap parts, manifold, crossmember $50-200
gutted intake manifold $400
gaskets $50-100

RB:
rb25det + trans + ecu + harness $1600-2100
clutch $400
injectors + clips/adapters $400
fuel rails + fpr + hoses $300-500
gt28-gt30 sized turbo, probably precision $500-700
custom downpipe + exhaust $500-800
no one will recommend nistune, but for comparison $450-550
aftermarket cams $300-600
aftermarket exhaust manifold $300-1500
aftermarket intake manifold $300-500
custom motor mounts $250
custom trans mount $150
custom driveshaft $300-400
aftermarket gauges (or cluster swap) $300-500
custom wiring $????
gaskets $200-300

And there's some other stuff you'll find along the way, little things, clips, connectors, the fact that nothing can be picked up at a parts store just like that...

[Pitts]

I would choose turbonetics because they make some damn good turbos. As for the clutch, if I'm going to upgrade it at all, I'd go with a stage 3+ based on personal preference and it's ability to hold 550 ft lbs of torque (something that's rated about 10% over what is make). Because if I'm upgrading all those parts, why stop at 400 rwhp? As the the gutted intake manifold and exhaust, if I really wanted, I could achieve it all for $600 (gut it myself as well as completely weld the exhaust. Just a 20' pipe (or even increments of 5') and cut and weld every piece instead of having to buy a mandrel bent pipe or anything.

I get what you're saying, I know the VG will be cheaper to get the certain necessary power I want.

I would choose the Mercades injectors (480cc) because that is what I found to be the best bet while keeping the stock injector setup (to save for the time being instead of having to buy or fab new rails).

Also, in regards to the clutch, I would choose a brand that I am confortable with (past experiences and all) such as Spec. Parts vary by brand obviously. Kind of like spark plugs. I've got friends that only like to use Autolite because they have experience with them and like them, whereas I prefer to stick with NGK.

As for the wiring and ecu for the RB, I'd stick with the stock ecu (as I mentioned, a stock RB setup would cost about the same as a 400rwhp setup with the VG; so I know I'd be sacrificing power. But in the end, the RB has more potential and parts are easier to get (For the most part)). I know the best bet would be a standalone ems. But the second best bet for the money is a Z32 ecu with a daughter board based on my research.

I'm one of those people that buy parts that exceed my needs because I never run my cars gently and stronger parts last longer (typically).

Also, I personally would never resurface a flywheel simply because I don't know if it was resurfaced before and it might be close to getting out of spec. So instead of using a resurface flywheel for (example only) 6-8 months, I'd rather buy new and use it for several years.

Congrats on getting the GT35R for that kind of price though.

You've also gotta remember that I live in Montana and some parts have to be ordered (even from the parts stores) and shipped across the country. So most of my prices are adjusted for $10-50 in shipping. Not to mention it isn't always easy to get parts from yards here. All the Z31's I've found here are NA or 88-89 with the smaller turbo.

To give you an idea how much connectors even cost here, I had to replace the wires and connectors from my ckp to my icm last summer. The two connectors (2 pin and a 3 pin) cost me $65 (and they had in stock) and I had wiring to connect the connectors. Not to mention the other parts stores here (NAPA, AutoZone, and CarQuest?) wanted to charge me $68-80 for the same two connectors. Not all the parts for the Z are instantly available like they would be in Houston or L.A. I've even got to order my plug wires from Aurora for $48 (NGK wires) whereas its $38 from RockAuto shipped but it takes 4 more days to get here.

So I know that I'm not necessarily looking in all the wrong places, but I wouldn't doubt that some places have cheaper prices that I've found. But like I also said, I like to get brands I trust and go a little overkill on what I need so I do less work an spend less money in the long run. Some things are common sense obviously. Like I'd rather pay $7.19 for NGK iridiums than $10+ (after shipping) for Denso Iridiums. To give you a better idea on how I overkill and think better safe than sorry, I am the kind of guy who installs ARP head studs whenever I increase the engines power by at least 30-50% (depending on starting hp). Its a great way to spend money, but at least I know I can push the car just a little bit harder and not have to worry.

In the end, my main reason I want to do an RB swap is because I love how the RB25/26 sound. I'm not kidding, I hear one and the hairs on my back and neck actually stand up and it gets hard for me to breathe. I know it sounds f***ed up, but it's 100% true. Hahah. And to me, that's worth the money. Kinda like how guys will rebuild their 383 every 2-3 years just because they love everything about it (of course that's a summer car that gets 5-7k miles a year).

[Pitts]

Just gotta add 2 things. The ckp and icm connectors were for my 95 Grand Prix with the 3100sfi. Also, I've typed every message on this thread with my phone. And I keep wondering why my battery doesn't always last long. Haha.

Oh, to help give you an idea on local VG prices, my cap, rotor, water pump, and thermostat ran me about $165 (and that's the best products/warranty for the best money). Luckily, when my coil went, RockAuto had sale and I got a Beck/Arnley coil for $12 shipped. But anyways, enough rambling for now. Hah

[G-E]

The only things cheaper for the rb are adjustable cam gears, everything else is more expensive, usually double, sometimes more, ask me how I know

Here's a properly done vg with tubular headers... tell me that wouldn't make your hair stand up? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbG9zRLke7o

[Pitts]

Oh I know the RB internals cost a s*** ton. Haha. I'll have to check out that video in a little bit


EDIT: It sounds nice. It does. But the love just ain't there for me.

[njborn95]

Also if you're worried about wiring, Z Fever racing in Tampa Florida makes the RB harness for the Z31. They make them for all the RB's in any year Z31 and the cost is about 400 for the RB25 harness that you send in to them for modification. They've run an RB25 in a Z31 before as one of their shop cars so I'm confident their wiring job will be satisfactory.

[Pitts]

Thanks for the tip