I need HELP! Timing Chain Rattle and running noise.

[04Frontier2.4]

I recently got a 2004 Nissan Frontier 2.4 2 wheel drive automatic truck. It's in great condition. Except i was told the engine was no good. I researched engines and found them to be in the 1,500 dollar one for a decent low mileage one. I didn't have that kind of money up front so i decided to tear into this one. I work at an automotive shop and have been working on cars and trucks for over 10 years. I've been to school for automotive technology so I understand a lot of how all this works. But I have not had a lot of experience in this particular engine. I have before put a timing chain set on another one a few years ago with great success so I understand how the timing chain system works. But let me tell you the story of this truck first.

The story of this truck is the truck belonged to a customer over a year ago. He let a family member drive the truck but the water pump went bad and started leaking. He allowed the engine to get hot and the head gasket took a dump. All this happened before I started working at this shop. It was sitting in the front of the shop when i started working here. I was told it just needed an engine. The boss said he had contacted the guy about picking up the truck because he had already paid to have the truck checked out so he can take it whenever he wanted but the guy didn't want to deal with it and ended up bringing the title up and handed the truck over to us. My boss gave it to me. At this point it had been sitting for about a year. I tried to jump start it off but come to find out the engine was seized up. We pushed it in and i pulled the oil pan and proceeded to try to free it up by turning the crank. You could see up into the cylinders it was rusted up pretty bad. I ended up having to beat on the counter weight on the crank shaft and finally got some movement out of it and eventually got it rotating freely with no problems. We tried to crank it up but it wouldn't start. We checked compression and the engine was dead. 25psi across the block. So an engine was looking to be replaced.

But I wasn't done just yet... I decided in a last effort to save the engine i was going to pull the head and pistons. I was going to install new piston rings and hone the cylinders. Then install a new head gasket and water pump and just see what happens. After the tear down i check the head with a straight edge and it was warped pretty bad. .030 of an inch space in the middle. I found a guy selling a rebuild cylinder head he had done but ended up putting an engine in the vehicle he was working on so he no longer needed it. I scored it for 200 bucks. The head was fresh from the machine shop and had been resurfaced and had a valve job with all new valves. Looked brand new. The guy also gave me all new timing components. Chains, Tensioners and guides. I got everything put together and turned the engine over with no spark to prime it up and then with spark she cranked right up and ran good. I was invested like 380 bucks and a weekend of my time into getting it running. Not too bad if i should say so. But here is the thing... It has a bit of a start up rattle. Like a timing chain rattle. It also seemed to have a bit of a running ticking sound... almost like lifters or fuel injectors. I assume that would be fixed by setting valve clearance by shimming the bucket lifters... See... i do know a little lol. But i cant seem to get this start up rattle to go away.

I have re tore the timing cover off and installed another new lower tensioner... No help. I have checked oil pressure and was good but replace the oil pump... Still no help. I have even installed a factory nissan oil filter. I was told that would help, but nope. It has new chains, tensioners, guides, oil pump, oil pressure, good oil with lucas and a factory filter. Im lost. It rattles more on colder start up. If i turn the truck off... Then back on it has no rattle. Only after it sits. Also... When it's cold it performs a bit better than after it has warmed up. It gets sluggish with poor acceleration. It's weird and I dont know what else to do to it to get it to stop rattling on start up. It sounds pretty nasty and it does sound like it's coming from behind the timing cover.

[centralcoaster33]

Hey, welcome to NICO Club!

Grabbing the ol' stethescope comes to mind. That and a reminder that you said it was a last ditch effort, so know when to cut the losses.

You are referring to the OEM, stock 2.4 engine from the 2004 Frontier, correct? We do have access to the FSM, which you might need to check the machine work done on the head. Here's a link to all the chapters (start with FWD for table of contents, then EM for the engine stuff):
http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Frontier/2004/

[04Frontier2.4]

Hey, welcome to NICO Club!

Grabbing the ol' stethescope comes to mind. That and a reminder that you said it was a last ditch effort, so know when to cut the losses.

You are referring to the OEM, stock 2.4 engine from the 2004 Frontier, correct? We do have access to the FSM, which you might need to check the machine work done on the head. Here's a link to all the chapters (start with FWD for table of contents, then EM for the engine stuff):
http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/Frontier/2004/

I did that and it does sound like it's coming from behind the timing cover. It only lasts for a few seconds but it definitely sounds like that's where it's coming from. It's like the spring is not effectively holding proper tension on the chain. Once oil pressure gets there which is pretty instant... I checked with a gauge at the OPS right by the oil filter and it builds 60 PSI while the starter is still turning the engine. As far as checking the machine work... Im not sure I can do that. The cylinder head I bought was not the original head from the truck. It came off a 2000 model 2.4L Frontier. I believe that to be the same cylinder head. The guy I bought it from works at a shop as well. The engine it came from jumped time and the pistons and valves kissed. That's when that guy sent the cylinder head off to be check and redone. From the looks it looks to be done very well. Very clean job. Like i said he had a valve job done with all new valves installed. They checked the cams and he said they set valve lash but he never double checked that. He did install the cylinder head on the block it came off of but he said it ran for all but 30 minutes when he found out the bottom end was no good so he pulled the engine and installed another one. Then he put the cylinder head up for sale to re coupe some money he lost in the job. He claimed to have spent almost 600 bucks on the cylinder head rebuild. He didn't tell me what shop he had the machine work done so it's a as is sell. I am thinking the valve lash is out of spec so im going to be checking that at the end of the day. I do have other shims from the original cylinder head so hopefully I can make them work. From my understanding, doing a valve job changes valve lash. But it wouldn't cause the start up rattle.

[centralcoaster33]

Hmm, if you're sure it's the chain, then you'll want to determine if it's the upper or lower chain. Whatever the 'rattle' is, it's not a chain by itself, it's the chain hitting something as it spins round. So, you can take off the covers and visibly see where the chain is slapping the block or cover or whatever and proceed from there I suppose.

Timing chain rattle was a thing with the KA back in the early '90s, but not so much since then. Hydraulic lifter tick was a thing with the earlier KA24E engines (single cam). You might listen to some valve train rattle videos and sound clips online to see if it's a similar sound.

You've kind of put together a few questionable engine parts and you're close to having a running engine, but man, diagnoses from this side of the computer is pretty difficult. Maybe you have all the parts now. Maybe you need to take it apart and put it back together carefully yourself. Maybe it's just one more thing needs to be tightened and your all done, I don't know. I guess it makes sense to source this rattling.

[04Frontier2.4]

Hmm, if you're sure it's the chain, then you'll want to determine if it's the upper or lower chain. Whatever the 'rattle' is, it's not a chain by itself, it's the chain hitting something as it spins round. So, you can take off the covers and visibly see where the chain is slapping the block or cover or whatever and proceed from there I suppose.

Timing chain rattle was a thing with the KA back in the early '90s, but not so much since then. Hydraulic lifter tick was a thing with the earlier KA24E engines (single cam). You might listen to some valve train rattle videos and sound clips online to see if it's a similar sound.

You've kind of put together a few questionable engine parts and you're close to having a running engine, but man, diagnoses from this side of the computer is pretty difficult. Maybe you have all the parts now. Maybe you need to take it apart and put it back together carefully yourself. Maybe it's just one more thing needs to be tightened and your all done, I don't know. I guess it makes sense to source this rattling.

So I pulled the valve cover and check valve clearances. What i got were... starting from the rear...

.012-.015 .013-.016
Intake cylinder Exhaust
.013 (4) .015
.010 .020

.018 (3) .017
.014 .019

.013 (2) .019
.016 .015

.011 (1) .017
.010 .015

There are 10 out of 16 that are out of spec but not by much. Does that little bit out of spec actually warrant all the work to re shim valve lash? Could the 3 on the intake side being too tight cause the sluggish when the engine warms up? I notice that 2 of the 3 that are too tight just to happen to be on the number 1 cylinder.

I also ran the engine without the valve cover on it on a over night cold start. I noticed that the upper chain did vibrate a good bit when it was rattling but it didn't seem to be slapping against anything. I could look down and I didn't notice the lower chain moving so I suspect the noise to be coming from the upper chain. I want to correct myself from earlier... I actually only have a new lower crank timing chain, guides and upper and lower tensioners. I did not replace the upper chain because i didnt have one. Nor did i replace any of the sprockets. The kit im about to order comes with two chains, two guides, two tensioners, and 4 sprockets. 2 cams, 1 idler and 1 crank.

Yeah i know it does run surprisingly well for the hell this engine has been through. And i am SO close to having a very decently running little truck. Just a few more kinks to work out is all.

[centralcoaster33]

Well, those engineers and their tolerances, lol. Tolerance is the allowable error in a measurement. When you're outside of spec, you're in the un-allowable range. At least that is my understanding. You can double check your measurements if you like, but with more than 50% of your valve train outside of spec, I'd consider that a potential source of problems.

I'm okay with math. These are to the thousandth, and there is a spread of 0.004, that means for every 0.001 off, you are 25% out of spec. So, if that 0.020 was supposed to be lower than 0.016, then that one is 100% out of whack by my fuzzy logic. And that 0.019 would be 75% out of whack. Maybe if less than 50% of your valve train was less than 25% outside of spec it would be okay, but I can't attest to that. As it stands, you're not very close to that yet. I'd just stick to the dictated tolerance and make corrections as necessary. Maybe you can swap your shims or buckets around to get a better fit across the cam without having to buy parts.

At this point, I admit that head machine work is beyond my experience (I could do it, I just haven't yet!). So I hope some tear down and rebuild guys see this and can chime in. My fingers are crossed for you.

[04Frontier2.4]

Well Thank you sir for your time and expertise. You are correct. Those damn engineers and their tolerances haha. I guess it makes sense that if they are going to set such a tight tolerance that it makes a difference. Well i guess i have a task ahead of me to see if i can get this thing running right. It's going to cost me about another 150 in timing components and a few hours of my time to get the timing parts on and i have no idea how much time it will take to get the valve lash in spec but i guess i have no choice. Maybe it will have a little bit more performance. It's a turd bucket right now. Actually right now it's in the back bay half way torn apart right now. Thanks again for the chime in. It has been helpful. Ill let you know what the results are when im all done.

[centralcoaster33]

Sounds like a plan. Take your time and keep us posted please.

[04Frontier2.4]

Alright... Im not done with it yet. It's been a busy customer vehicle day but I have been fighting with this thing in between working on customers cars trying to get this valve lash in spec. The idiot that machined the head ground down the valve stems to set valve lash and failed miserably.. sigh... Well that's just great for me because that means I will need thicker shims in the places out of spec... Buuut... Before I had a whopping 10 out out of 16 out of spec. But now I have managed to get all but 3 in spec using some of the shims in the old cylinder head and some of the bucket lifters. I noticed that a few of the buckets were thicker than others, that worked in my favor in a couple places. But unfortunately I just don't have enough thick shims to go around. I got them as close as possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Exhaust/Intake
0.013 / 0.015 Cylinder 4
0.013 / 0.017

0.015 / 0.016 Cylinder 3
0.015 / 0.015

0.013 / 0.017 Cylinder 2
0.017 / 0.014

0.014 / 0.016 Cylinder 1
0.015 / 0.016

Front of vehicle
---------------------------------------------------------------
The Intake side is supposed to be 0.012 to 0.015. And the Exhaust is 0.013 to 0.016. So cylinders 1 and 3 are good now. 2 and 4 have the ones out of spec. On 4 is just the 0.017 on the exhaust side which is 0.001 out of spec. I know... I know... Tolerances!!... Lol... But like I said... That's the best i can do without getting thicker shims. I think I worked at it at a combined 4-5 hours. I even bought a special micrometer for this that is accurate down to 0.001 of an inch. Cylinder number 2 has one on the exhaust that is 0.017 which is 0.001 out of spec and one on the intake side that is 0.017, which is 0.002 out of spec. But at least none are 0.018 - 0.020 like before, right? Lol. I checked with the dealer to see how much thicker shims would be... I need 3. They are 15 bucks a piece and will take over a week to get. F that.... maybe?

As far as the start up rattle. I think I may have it figured out. Im seeing differences and things wrong. Close examination of the timing components on the engine now on the lower chain set up i noticed that the factory guides that I originally took off are aluminum and very light weight. The ones that the guy gave me when I bought the rebuilt head are freaking steal. The tensioner side guide side weights like 3 times of the factory one. The replacements I got today to go on are the same as the factory, aluminum and light weight. Maybe that heavier guide is too heavy and is asking too much of the tensioner to keep tight on start up... idk. We will see. Also the upper chain tensioner is no good. Very easy to press in compared to the factory one I originally took off. But this time I now have ALL new timing components now. Chains, tensioners, guides and sprockets. Im feeling very optimistic and I think it will work out. Im actually am still at the shop after hours finishing up on the valve lash crap. Im about to take myself to the house. Tomorrow ill finish it up. Let me know before I put this thing back together if you think i may be good on the 3 that are out of spec. Thanks again!!

[04Frontier2.4]

Damn it... Where i wrote down the "Exhaust/Intake" where I listed the specs... Reverse that. I wrote it in backwards. The Intake side is on the left and the Exhaust side is on the right. My bad.

[centralcoaster33]

Those numbers are a lot closer. I hoped some swapping would be in your favor. $15 seems pricey when it's times 3, but maybe... Interesting about the guide material and quality. Aluminum?! Really? Hmm. So, you're gonna put it back and see how it runs or your gonna get three more buckets? Either way, I'm guessing you've made improvements. Don't get in trouble at work for doing too much on your 'free time'!

[04Frontier2.4]

Those numbers are a lot closer. I hoped some swapping would be in your favor. $15 seems pricey when it's times 3, but maybe... Interesting about the guide material and quality. Aluminum?! Really? Hmm. So, you're gonna put it back and see how it runs or your gonna get three more buckets? Either way, I'm guessing you've made improvements. Don't get in trouble at work for doing too much on your 'free time'!

Yeah man... The guides are supposed to be aluminum. That is what i originally took off but the one the guy gave me was like heavy steal. I guess i forgot about that part but i guess my thinking was... YEEAH! HIGHER QUALITY!! Lol... turns out it't not. The kit I got is made by Cloyes... Good stuff. It matches up PERFECTLY with factory. Yeah those number are a bit closer. I went ahead and rolled with it because i noticed that one of the threads in the second exhaust side bearing cap started to get a bit stripped from the constant removal and install trying to get the shimming correct. Im close... Not dead on but close enough for me. I just got it all together and running and.... BUM BUM BUM!!!! She's good. No start up rattle so far past the first one. I did make sure to leave the plug wires off and spin over the engine a few times to prime the oil up but it did rattle a little. But not as bad... not as loud... And it didn't sound the same as before. It sounded... More solid? But she runs nice and smooth. No loud lifter ticking so far either. Shes just now warming up after putting back together so the miles ahead and future start ups will be the true test. I will say that it sounds a MILLION times better than the first start up from the beginning. Im just wrapping up now and about to go on a test drive and see how she does... Ill be right back........ -5 minutes later- ........ alright... She drives good. I got her all timed up and ready to go. Ill touch back in a few days to see if the rattle persists or has stopped. Oh... And we closed early today because of snow... I have a key so i can stay behind and do whatever lol.

[04Frontier2.4]

***UPDATE***

I believe the problems have been fixed. No more start up rattle. I drove the truck several times this weekend with no problems what so ever. If it were going to rattle, It would be right after it sat for more than a few minutes. All weekend It cranked up normally. Drove normally. Idled smoothly and quietly. Replacing the timing components and setting valve lash closer to spec really made a difference. Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it!

[centralcoaster33]

This is awesome news! I'm happy for you. Just in time for the holidays so you can rest and relax and focus on other things now. Rock on! I'm glad I could help a bit, but you did all the real work. Congratulations!