a little back info. i've been trolling in the background of this forum for quite i've searched, read, and still have questions. i'm not a complete newb, but if you feel it necessary to flame have fun. I am merely looking for some guidance from those who have gone where i have not. and please no "i think or you should be okay with."
some time, i know some stuff, but i'm quite unsure on many others. i've been planning on going ka-t for 2.5 years now, but the opportunity has not presented itself completely. the first block i was gonna rebuild and turbo got thrown away, it was in pristine shape and had been hot tanked(not my fault i was in japan). now i have another block and i'm in iraq(the perfect place to buy the parts)
here's where i'm having problems ie indecisive.
i'm looking to cap my project at about 7g's but i want to make sure every thing is done correctly. i'm planning for between 275-325 on the rear wheels. with a completion date around november at the latest.
plans includeturbo 240 advanced rebuild kit which will cover the basics of my mechanical rebuild front and rear main seals, new oil pump assembly
i also was planning on running the turbo240 fuel system (not teh 1200hp one)
that puts me at about 3000 leaving roughly 4000.
i can piece together my own turbo system no problem but i am drawn to the relative ease of a kit. and i know the stock maf will not be able to handle the amount of airflow i need. I am also aware that the stock fuel system will not allow such hp either without blowing shortly thereafter
now is where i become confused should i
a) i could forgoe the turbo 240 fuel system and use somthing like the greddy kit but that presents a problem as my target rwhp would be maxing out the injectors that come with it and would need to be replaced.
b) turbo 240 fuel system and iap basic kit, but that leaves me without any engine/fuel management.
c)custom kit including jgs tools manifold and all necessary parts.
my main concern is engine management. i've yet to see an end all solution to this. i've only heard good things about enthalpy but he requires an s13 ecu and i have an s14. there is very little about the greddy e-manage ultimate that i have found, and stand alone will break the bank.
the car will have a wideband o2, and will be run on 93 octane for its life about 1 month after projected completion date.
Modified by sdwyzs14 at 2:49 AM 6/12/2006
i'm trying to get all my ducks in a row. experts please help
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EazyBreazy
- Posts: 2672
- Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:19 pm
Quite a budget youve got there! With that kind of money you should be able to easially put down a VERY solid 300rwhp. (truthfully with that kind of money you could put down more)
I would reccomend putting your own kit together. It will take a little more time to figure out everything that you need, but I think this route is worth it both for the money you save and for the quality of parts you'll get. A kit is an easy way to do it, but there is a sacrifice you make for that luxary.
No reason you should worry any more about a DIY engine management versus the management found in a kit: they can easially be the same (although I havnt heard a lot of great stuff about the emanage anyways). S13 ECUs are easy to find-- on http://www.car-part.com there are more than 100 of them for sale by mail order across the US. No worries there.
I would reccomend putting your own kit together. It will take a little more time to figure out everything that you need, but I think this route is worth it both for the money you save and for the quality of parts you'll get. A kit is an easy way to do it, but there is a sacrifice you make for that luxary.
No reason you should worry any more about a DIY engine management versus the management found in a kit: they can easially be the same (although I havnt heard a lot of great stuff about the emanage anyways). S13 ECUs are easy to find-- on http://www.car-part.com there are more than 100 of them for sale by mail order across the US. No worries there.
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EazyBreazy
- Posts: 2672
- Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:19 pm
suspension will be completed when i get back to the states. the only stock parts left will be the lower control arms and the rear sub frame, so i figured it was time to do the engine while i can. the reason i'm capping my budget so high is that this will be my only car, i'm getting out of the Marine Corps in january and going back to college. i want it reliable, yet more fun than it is. could you elaborate more on the engine management methods you speak of please. i'm a walking contradiction. i fix electronics for a living in the military, but i dont understand them for sh17. please break it down to 1+1 for me. i know its askign alot
Searching will help alot for this, but in general:
Burnt ECUs: Simple, plug-and-play- you dont have to modify them at all once they're plugged in. Two major companies offer them for our cars: JWT (Jim Wolf Technologies) and Enthalpy. Both cost about the same (about $500). You send them your ECU and info on your setup, they send you back the ECU with your tune. Minuses are that if you make a significant upgrade, you have to re-burn the ECU as well, which often is not cheap.
-Piggybacks: Products like the SAFC will "piggyback" onto your stock wiring and modify signals so that you add more fuel when you need it, etc. These are usually pretty rough around the edges and not reccomended for a high horsepower car like you are planning. Also, the SAFC for example only controls fuel-- so you need to buy something else (like a MSD BTM) to control timing as well. These units are cheaper, though.
-Advanced Piggybacks - Products like the E-Manage fall into this catagory. They work similarly to the SAFC (by acting as an intermediatary between your engine and the computer, "tricking" the computer into adding more fuel or reducing timing when you need to). These units are capable of fuel as well as ignition timing, give you a much nicer layout (plug into a laptop and give you full maps)-- but they still have some significant weaknesses that are inherent in the piggyback design. There are lots of complaints about emanages if you look around, although it is true that this system really isnt THAT bad for the cost. Also there is a new Emanage Ultimate that is more of a hybrid piggyback/standalone which is supposed to solve a lot of the original Emanage ("emanage blue") issues. Cost for the blue emanage is I beleive about 500, for the ultimate I think its closer to 700 once you're done with all the harnesses and stuff. Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong.
Standalone- The ultmate management. Something like the AEM EMS or a Haltech/Motec system is a complete ECU replacement (and in the haltech's case, complete wiring replacement as well -- the AEM EMS by comparison just plugs in where your old ECU was). These systems can do absolutely anything you can dream of- custom fuel and timing maps, all kinds of options, absolute fine control of the entire engine enviornment. Cost is VERY high though. You're looking at $1500 at the least, and if you add in the (necessary) goodies like wideband and various sensors, you're looking at over $2000. They are kickass, though.
That's pretty must the gyst of it. As you can see, cost goes up as you go down the list, but so does quality. Also note that complexity of use starts at the easiest, and goes to most difficult. For a standalone or even the emanage, expect to have to hire a professional tuner to tune your car on a dyno- which is big bucks if you want it done right. Lots of added cost as you go up in complexity/price-- but of course you're getting quality as well. I had a professionally tuned AEM EMS on my previous KA-T, and the thing ran smooth as glass. Off boost you'd think it was a stock car, on boost it was mean as hell-- and always smooth. Expect less expensive/complicated managment systems to be somewhat rougher around the edges.
This is probably the biggest decision you have to make when putting together this car. Figure out your budget, and my advice is buy the best managment that you can afford. This is where true reliability comes from, so try not to skimp.
Burnt ECUs: Simple, plug-and-play- you dont have to modify them at all once they're plugged in. Two major companies offer them for our cars: JWT (Jim Wolf Technologies) and Enthalpy. Both cost about the same (about $500). You send them your ECU and info on your setup, they send you back the ECU with your tune. Minuses are that if you make a significant upgrade, you have to re-burn the ECU as well, which often is not cheap.
-Piggybacks: Products like the SAFC will "piggyback" onto your stock wiring and modify signals so that you add more fuel when you need it, etc. These are usually pretty rough around the edges and not reccomended for a high horsepower car like you are planning. Also, the SAFC for example only controls fuel-- so you need to buy something else (like a MSD BTM) to control timing as well. These units are cheaper, though.
-Advanced Piggybacks - Products like the E-Manage fall into this catagory. They work similarly to the SAFC (by acting as an intermediatary between your engine and the computer, "tricking" the computer into adding more fuel or reducing timing when you need to). These units are capable of fuel as well as ignition timing, give you a much nicer layout (plug into a laptop and give you full maps)-- but they still have some significant weaknesses that are inherent in the piggyback design. There are lots of complaints about emanages if you look around, although it is true that this system really isnt THAT bad for the cost. Also there is a new Emanage Ultimate that is more of a hybrid piggyback/standalone which is supposed to solve a lot of the original Emanage ("emanage blue") issues. Cost for the blue emanage is I beleive about 500, for the ultimate I think its closer to 700 once you're done with all the harnesses and stuff. Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong.
Standalone- The ultmate management. Something like the AEM EMS or a Haltech/Motec system is a complete ECU replacement (and in the haltech's case, complete wiring replacement as well -- the AEM EMS by comparison just plugs in where your old ECU was). These systems can do absolutely anything you can dream of- custom fuel and timing maps, all kinds of options, absolute fine control of the entire engine enviornment. Cost is VERY high though. You're looking at $1500 at the least, and if you add in the (necessary) goodies like wideband and various sensors, you're looking at over $2000. They are kickass, though.
That's pretty must the gyst of it. As you can see, cost goes up as you go down the list, but so does quality. Also note that complexity of use starts at the easiest, and goes to most difficult. For a standalone or even the emanage, expect to have to hire a professional tuner to tune your car on a dyno- which is big bucks if you want it done right. Lots of added cost as you go up in complexity/price-- but of course you're getting quality as well. I had a professionally tuned AEM EMS on my previous KA-T, and the thing ran smooth as glass. Off boost you'd think it was a stock car, on boost it was mean as hell-- and always smooth. Expect less expensive/complicated managment systems to be somewhat rougher around the edges.
This is probably the biggest decision you have to make when putting together this car. Figure out your budget, and my advice is buy the best managment that you can afford. This is where true reliability comes from, so try not to skimp.
Re: (fiznat)
You could use the MegaSquirt2 standalone system...
It costs less than an Enthalpy tuned ECU and is a full standalone unit. DeviousKA could probably assist you in wiring the ECU to your stock harness, but that's not my help to volunteer.
Just a suggestion.
It costs less than an Enthalpy tuned ECU and is a full standalone unit. DeviousKA could probably assist you in wiring the ECU to your stock harness, but that's not my help to volunteer.
Just a suggestion.
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EazyBreazy
- Posts: 2672
- Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:19 pm