I love breaking my car over and over and over...

[PMan_S13]

... no really, it's a lot of fun. Break something then go to fix it and break something else in the process! BUT don't find out you broke the 2nd thing until AFTER you put everthing back together. Rinse, wash, and repeat.

(If you don't want to read the insanity below, just skip to the bold part)

Okay. Long story short (sorry if it ends up long, actually I know it's going to, so sorry), the bolt that holds the middle timing gear (the lowest of the three upper timing gears. Two for the cams and the lowest one.. don't know what it is actually called) stripped-out somehow. Really, really badly. This all came from me showing my friend with a turbo civic that I too can make my blow off valve PFFFF when revving it up. After that it started making a sound that, what I thought at the time, was a new exhaust leak. Didn't sound too bad so I just went home without checking it. Well it sounded horrible when I got home, like nasty valve train tapping... this is all the crap I have done thus far.

-Took off the valve cover and looked to make sure I wasn't grinding my cams down. Looked fine, *sigh of relief*, reassembled.

-Had the brilliant idea to check the oil level. Slightly low, maybe 3/4 of a quart. Added some, *another sigh of relief*, thinking I fixed it.

-Started up, *sigh of defeat*, sounds horrible still. Had another brilliant idea to get my ear close enough to actually hear where the sound is coming from. Discovered it is coming from the front timing cover.

-Took off the valve cover, upper timing cover, intake cam gear, timing chain tensioner, and distributor. And discovered the bolt previously mentioned is really freakin loose.. like so loose I can move the lower timing chain and gear around easily in any direction. Yeah, that's really bad. Got a longer bolt so I can get to some thread that is not stripped out. Clean out the filings and reassemble everything again.

-Now it doesn't have the stupid grinding sound but the motor is a dog. Doesn't want to go, doesn't even really want to idle. Runs okay once in gear, just does not pull. So I guess that the ignition timing is set at like 0 btdc. Check timing with gun and see that it is set how it should be; 20 btdc.

-So I'm like, well, the valve timing must be screwed up. Disassemble everything again. Reset the valve timing, but it was spot on before and it still is now. Reassemble. Still a dog, but I decide to experiment.

-In first, I let the car rev out. It runs so weak it can just barely accelerate. I can hear the intake sucking in air, usually I never hear this. Once it gets up to about 4000 something, the turbo wakes up and starts forcing air in. Late, but it at least is working. On boost the motor wakes up significantly. It actually pulls pretty well, not how it should but definately faster than stock. Just to emphasize the point. I have to milk the clutch at 2500 just to get it moving. And on the highway I am using 35% throttle to keep it going as compared to about 13-15% (readings brought to you by Apexi) Vacuum reads fine, I used to read about 10-15 psi of vacuum while cruising, but I have to use so much throttle to keep going it reads 0 almost all the time. Besides being weak it runs well. Smooth power, runs a little cool, but probably from lack of power anyway. Not rich or lean (tan plugs), no smoke.

-Fought with the distributor for a while. Probably reset the darn thing 15 times. Advancing it makes it just barely more powerful, but nothing close to what it was just a few days ago. Advancing makes it miss a lot too. Retarding doesn't really help, just gets so weak it can't even run, and floods the motor pretty easily.

I got to tell ya fellas I am stumped. And in case you can't tell I am really getting freakin tired of taking this thing apart. So before I do it again, some advice would be appreciated. My best guess is the valve timing is really far off. I can't explain the weakness with good cam and ignition timing any other way. Something is just not right hear. But if it lines up that must mean that my lower timing chain is off time. Maybe this happened when the lower chain was loose due to that stupid bolt? But the thing that confuses me is that it ran great with the nasty sound. I thought nothing of the sound because it still ran the same. So any jumping would have happened then and not when I took it apart. Maybe I do have the valve timing jakced up.. what's the number of links between each timing mark? I have 6 between the two cams, 6 between the exhaust cam and lower gear, and 10 (or whatever the longer space is) between the lower gear and intake cam.

(Yeah, it's pretty long, sorry.. but thanks for bearing with me)


Modified by PMan_S13 at 5:20 AM 9/11/2004

[klattr1]

check out JWT's cam install instructions on their "Tech Support" part of the site. they have good pics and such.

[PMan_S13]

Eh, thanks for the redirect, but that's not what I'm looking for.

They give you the pics for their cams and chain, not the stock one. That one picture has 7 links between the gears.. mine doesn't even have that much gapping.

Thanks though..

[klattr1]

the chain they have on there is stock. who knows what the deal is with your car then. i would have to see a pic of the alignment at TDC to make sure.every time i install my cams and in other friends' cars, i use these jwt instructions because they are complete for any ka24de cam setup.it works like a champ every time.from what you are describing, it just seems like your distributor is off a tooth or so. im not saying it is but the symptoms seem about right.how do u install yours because its very easy to get off one tooth?i have good dist. install directions as well if you need them.

[PMan_S13]

I'll have to give JWT another look, I must have missed it somehow.

The way I install my distributor is I put it to tdc. Then all I have to do is get it in there so the rotor is pointing almost straight forward, but just a hair down. That's how it looks in all the pictures and it usually gives my close to 20 btdc everytime. That's including this time via the timing gun.

I started to wonder if the crank pulley was off, but that's crazy. The thing only goes on one way.

I got excused from duty last night so I stayed up till 1030 this morning tearing the thing down. I plan on just redoing the timing from the start. I'm really tired of doing this over and over, so I just want to do it right the last time. Not likely, but I worried the lower chain could have jumped a few teeth when the upper pulley was just floating there. I could have gotten it all done if the crank pulley and front timing cover didn't fight me the whole way. Plus it was pretty cold last night...

[C-Kwik]

That happened to me before. The chain stayed spot on on the upper gear, but jumped a tooth on the lower one. It had similar results to what you are experiencing, but I fouled my plugs real bad as the MAF readings were affected quite badly as well.

[chandler]

hate to hear that man, taking things apart suck rectum

[fiznat]

Well honestly it seems like you've checked the timing lots of times already... do what you said and re-do the whole thing one more time, but after that I'd really suggest you start looking at simpler things. You'd be suprised how bad a clogged air filter/intake can affect peformance... I've seen a leaves in the airbox cause some of the weirdest problems ever.... Although you probably have a cone style filter or something, but it's still worth checking. Also check fuel and spark... you never know, something could have easially gone wrong in one of those systems while you were messing with all the timing.

Sorry I cant help you too much with the timing issue, but I'm really good at solving stupid problems haha so maybe thats it!

Good luck!

[huguetpj]

Don't know if it helps out or not. From my page here: http://katcostarica.240sxonlin...3.htm

http://katcostarica.240sxonlin...n.JPGhttp://katcostarica.240sxonlin...t.JPGhttp://katcostarica.240sxonlin...t.JPGhttp://katcostarica.240sxonlin...y.JPG

[PMan_S13]

Well I am back again, and I am really mad... and confused.

First off I finished putting everything back together. Including trips to the parts store; it took me 11 hours to take it apart, retime and reassemble everything again. And I even took pictures to prove to myself it was all lined up on assembly. Everything was on perfect.

And the car still runs horrible. Better, but something is definately wrong.

Here are the things I have checked as of then to try and sort this mess out.

-Thought it might be the ignition timing. Set to 20 btdc, and seems to advance alright. Runs bad though so it's hard to be sure of this.

-Checked the MAFs. Seemed alright, but I cleaned it anyway. Tried out 2 other ones I had laying around. Also my brothers he just got. All had the same result.

-Replaced fuel filter. Runs a lot better, but still no power. Also checked the filter in the tank off the pump. Clean as a whistle.

-Checked for any type of loose electrical connection. Only thing worth mentioning is the car seems to run the same with the TPS removed. It will just stumble for a second when taken off, then goes right back to how it was. I don't remember how badly no TPS made the car act, but I thought it only affected idle anyway. I reset the TPS to .45v anyway, but nothing changed.

-Vacuum reads fine, but I did look over all the lines and gaskets and found nothing.

-This is probably nothing, but worth mentioning. If you take off the oil filler cap when running you can hear a sound like air being sucked in. You can feel it suck in too. It's kinda loud but as long as it isn't blowing out, I don't see how it could be blow by of any type.

-All the plugs are firing. They look a little lean from idling, but nothing too serious. Also when each injector is removed, one at a time, the motor runs worse.

-Exhaust smells like exhaust to me, nothing to mention.

Here's the additional testing I have done.

The car seems to idle fine. Steady with no real hiccups.

If you rev it up a little, I can tell that it is pulling more vacuum than normal, I can also hear the intake sucking in a lot of air. This might be from the motor not producing as loud of an exhaust note.

If you floor it, it gets up to about 2-4k and then sort of cuts out.

It you only give it partial throttle it will rev up a lot higher. Seems to rev better at 3-4k and continues revving up to mid 5k. (It didn't rev it higher) and as soon as you floor it dies out again. It seems almost like it is bogging down really bad.

I am so confused right now. I'm running out of things to check. Timing is spot on. I think it must be something in the electrical/fueling department. I'm wondering if the motor is trying to run in a fail-safe mode. MAF and TPS should be fine. Maybe the crank angle sensor is screwed up? The timing gear was just free floating in there, any way it could have screwed up something in the distributor? Or maybe the ecu itself it trying to crap out on me.

The day it started this running problem it was raining and I was really low on gas. First I thought I was out of gas or sucked in some deposits, then I thought I might have gotten something wet. Possible something got soaked and fried?

Thanks for any help guys, I am at a loss.. I need to think outside the box.