This is all about turbo'ing--
ok first off
1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of buying a complete turbo instead of buying the parts seperately (wastegate, housing, turbine, etc...) does it really matter if you want a basic turbo?
2. Whats better, fluid bearing or ball bearings?
3. Will reducing your compression ratio help knocking from high boost pressure? If so, why is everyone always worried about having high compression for turbo'ing?
4. Are wastegates something you definitly want on a turbo? How many people actually get them with it?
5. I know ceramic turbine blades are reduce turbo lag, but are they expensive and hard to install?
6. Whats the average PSI people go with when they turbo there KA's?
Also, is this all you need to safely turbo your KA?Turbo (housing, turbine, wastegate)Exhaust (Maybe full cat-back?)IntakeIntercoolerFuel Pump02 sensorInjectorsManifoldBlow-off valve
If some of them dont matter, at what PSI would you want to get them? Is it a good idea to get new plugs and wires with a new turbo?
Thats it! thanks all for your help!
I DARE YOU to answer my list of questions :)
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MaxType 240
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Re: I DARE YOU to answer my list of questions :)
OK naturally all of these questions are answered through simple searching (both on NICO and google, etc...), but since I'm bored I'll answer a few for you:
"1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of buying a complete turbo instead of buying the parts seperately (wastegate, housing, turbine, etc...) does it really matter if you want a basic turbo?"
A complete turbo setup is usually good for people who are looking for the easiest, most complete setup they can buy in one chunk. A lot of people get worried about making sure they have every last piece together before they start, or arent sure on what they need, or simply dont want to keep having to run to the parts store every 5 mins while installing the turbo. The kit is good because it has pretty much everything together at once, although then again it's bad because you're limited to the restrictions (and design) of that kit. If you want say a brand A or type B wastegate, or a certain type of turbo or whatever and it doesnt come with the kit... then you're stuck. Building your own setup is more involved because you have to know what you're doing (at least somewhat), and be willing to accept small mistakes and multiple trips to the parts store haha.
"2. Whats better, fluid bearing or ball bearings?"
Ball bearing turbos are usually preferred, but they are also much more expensive.
"3. Will reducing your compression ratio help knocking from high boost pressure? If so, why is everyone always worried about having high compression for turbo'ing?"
It will reduce detonation, which is the #1 cause of turbo engine failures. Basically, high engine compression and turbocharging do not mix. There is a fine line where some people bump the compression up and boost just a little bit, but it's my understanding that most high-boosting turbo cars are using a lower (8.5:1 or so) compression ratio and higher amounts of boost... and for good reason.
"4. Are wastegates something you definitly want on a turbo? How many people actually get them with it?"
Yes, and everyone. A wastegate controlls how much you are boosting (how many psi). Without this control, your turbo would just keep on compressing that air as you climb the revs untill your engine cant handle it anymore. You have to have a wastegate.
"5. I know ceramic turbine blades are reduce turbo lag, but are they expensive and hard to install?"
I dont know anything about ceramic turbine blades. Ive only heard of it once which makes me think that it's not a very popular or worthwhile modification for the level most of the people here are looking for. That means it's probably not for you, either. If you're still really interested in em I suggest more research, but if you're looking for quick response you might as well just get a smaller turbo, that's the easiest way to get quick response (low efficiencies at high boost though).
"6. Whats the average PSI people go with when they turbo there KA's?"
I'd say somewhere between 7 and 12 psi. Some people are lower, some higher of course.
"Also, is this all you need to safely turbo your KA?Turbo (housing, turbine, wastegate)Exhaust (Maybe full cat-back?)IntakeIntercoolerFuel Pump02 sensorInjectorsManifoldBlow-off valve"
-Turbos can be either internally wastegated or externally, so consider that when you're laying out your design. General preference is external wastegates though. -Intake isnt really all that important, it's just a little pipe with probably a MAFS and a filter on it.. dont sweat the small stuff right now.-What do you mean 02 sensor? Are you thinking about using a wideband 02 setup?
You will also need a TON of other parts, and will probably want another TON more. Things to consider:Some way to control the fuel like a rising rate fuel pressure regulator/S-AFC/E-Manage/JWT ECU/Standalone etc, Downpipe, Fuel rail depending on your injector type, Intercooler piping, Intercooler silicone connectors (or welds), Possibly a bigger MAFS depending on your setup, Turbo oil feed and return, taps for the oil pan and oil sending unit, Gauges to monitor your engine, Gauge pod, possibly a turbo timer, A new clutch incuding throwout bearing and pilot bushing, A full tuneup including cap, rotor, plugs, wires, belts, hoses, etc, possibly upgrade the radiator, some sort of differential (LSD, clutch type, etc), battery relocation kit, boost controller, a high flow cat or test pipe with your exhaust setup, a new timing set (depending on the condition of your engine), various gaskets and seals, possibly some sort of ignition setup (amp box + coil), the list goes on.
There's even more stuff if you want to build the engine with forged internals- which is geneally necessary if you want a lot of power.
As you can see, this is no small job. That's why a lot of people end up going with the kits, because it's just easier than trying to remember all of this crap. Still though it's all fairly intuitive once you understand how a turbo works and how it's setup on a car. Just remember that doing this WILL WILL WILL cost much more than you originally think. There are so many supporting items that are necessary for a turbo (do you think your tires are going to last just as long? nope), lots of extra money that you wouldnt be spending otherwise (high octane fuel? synthetic oil?). Think about this ALOT, and make sure you have the funds before you really dive into it-- cause I promise ya it'll snag you if you dont plan well and take your time.
All that said, haha good luck man, I wish you the best-- and seriously, next time: SEARCH THIS WEBSITE!!! Lots and lots of people have been in the position that you are now, wouldnt you want to read what responses they got as well when they asked the same questions?
Catcha around man.
"1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of buying a complete turbo instead of buying the parts seperately (wastegate, housing, turbine, etc...) does it really matter if you want a basic turbo?"
A complete turbo setup is usually good for people who are looking for the easiest, most complete setup they can buy in one chunk. A lot of people get worried about making sure they have every last piece together before they start, or arent sure on what they need, or simply dont want to keep having to run to the parts store every 5 mins while installing the turbo. The kit is good because it has pretty much everything together at once, although then again it's bad because you're limited to the restrictions (and design) of that kit. If you want say a brand A or type B wastegate, or a certain type of turbo or whatever and it doesnt come with the kit... then you're stuck. Building your own setup is more involved because you have to know what you're doing (at least somewhat), and be willing to accept small mistakes and multiple trips to the parts store haha.
"2. Whats better, fluid bearing or ball bearings?"
Ball bearing turbos are usually preferred, but they are also much more expensive.
"3. Will reducing your compression ratio help knocking from high boost pressure? If so, why is everyone always worried about having high compression for turbo'ing?"
It will reduce detonation, which is the #1 cause of turbo engine failures. Basically, high engine compression and turbocharging do not mix. There is a fine line where some people bump the compression up and boost just a little bit, but it's my understanding that most high-boosting turbo cars are using a lower (8.5:1 or so) compression ratio and higher amounts of boost... and for good reason.
"4. Are wastegates something you definitly want on a turbo? How many people actually get them with it?"
Yes, and everyone. A wastegate controlls how much you are boosting (how many psi). Without this control, your turbo would just keep on compressing that air as you climb the revs untill your engine cant handle it anymore. You have to have a wastegate.
"5. I know ceramic turbine blades are reduce turbo lag, but are they expensive and hard to install?"
I dont know anything about ceramic turbine blades. Ive only heard of it once which makes me think that it's not a very popular or worthwhile modification for the level most of the people here are looking for. That means it's probably not for you, either. If you're still really interested in em I suggest more research, but if you're looking for quick response you might as well just get a smaller turbo, that's the easiest way to get quick response (low efficiencies at high boost though).
"6. Whats the average PSI people go with when they turbo there KA's?"
I'd say somewhere between 7 and 12 psi. Some people are lower, some higher of course.
"Also, is this all you need to safely turbo your KA?Turbo (housing, turbine, wastegate)Exhaust (Maybe full cat-back?)IntakeIntercoolerFuel Pump02 sensorInjectorsManifoldBlow-off valve"
-Turbos can be either internally wastegated or externally, so consider that when you're laying out your design. General preference is external wastegates though. -Intake isnt really all that important, it's just a little pipe with probably a MAFS and a filter on it.. dont sweat the small stuff right now.-What do you mean 02 sensor? Are you thinking about using a wideband 02 setup?
You will also need a TON of other parts, and will probably want another TON more. Things to consider:Some way to control the fuel like a rising rate fuel pressure regulator/S-AFC/E-Manage/JWT ECU/Standalone etc, Downpipe, Fuel rail depending on your injector type, Intercooler piping, Intercooler silicone connectors (or welds), Possibly a bigger MAFS depending on your setup, Turbo oil feed and return, taps for the oil pan and oil sending unit, Gauges to monitor your engine, Gauge pod, possibly a turbo timer, A new clutch incuding throwout bearing and pilot bushing, A full tuneup including cap, rotor, plugs, wires, belts, hoses, etc, possibly upgrade the radiator, some sort of differential (LSD, clutch type, etc), battery relocation kit, boost controller, a high flow cat or test pipe with your exhaust setup, a new timing set (depending on the condition of your engine), various gaskets and seals, possibly some sort of ignition setup (amp box + coil), the list goes on.
There's even more stuff if you want to build the engine with forged internals- which is geneally necessary if you want a lot of power.
As you can see, this is no small job. That's why a lot of people end up going with the kits, because it's just easier than trying to remember all of this crap. Still though it's all fairly intuitive once you understand how a turbo works and how it's setup on a car. Just remember that doing this WILL WILL WILL cost much more than you originally think. There are so many supporting items that are necessary for a turbo (do you think your tires are going to last just as long? nope), lots of extra money that you wouldnt be spending otherwise (high octane fuel? synthetic oil?). Think about this ALOT, and make sure you have the funds before you really dive into it-- cause I promise ya it'll snag you if you dont plan well and take your time.
All that said, haha good luck man, I wish you the best-- and seriously, next time: SEARCH THIS WEBSITE!!! Lots and lots of people have been in the position that you are now, wouldnt you want to read what responses they got as well when they asked the same questions?
Catcha around man.
Re: I DARE YOU to answer my list of questions :)
smokin240 wrote:This is all about turbo'ing--
ok first off
1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of buying a complete turbo instead of buying the parts seperately (wastegate, housing, turbine, etc...) does it really matter if you want a basic turbo?
Kit = easierDIY = cheaper
Quote » 2. Whats better, fluid bearing or ball bearings?[/quote]
Balls
Quote » 3. Will reducing your compression ratio help knocking from high boost pressure? If so, why is everyone always worried about having high compression for turbo'ing?[/quote]
Yes. Cause they want to reduce it to avoid knock, don't really understand the question. Higher comp = quicker spool up, lower comp = higher boost... but we are talking above 15-18PSI on pump gas.
Quote » 4. Are wastegates something you definitly want on a turbo? How many people actually get them with it?[/quote]
You ALWAYS need one. If you don't have one you can't control the turbo. All of them.
Quote » 5. I know ceramic turbine blades are reduce turbo lag, but are they expensive and hard to install?[/quote]
Never heard of them
Quote » 6. Whats the average PSI people go with when they turbo there KA's?[/quote]
From 4PSI all the way to 30PSI. Average... I would say 9PSI.
Quote » Also, is this all you need to safely turbo your KA?Turbo (housing, turbine, wastegate)Exhaust (Maybe full cat-back?)IntakeIntercoolerFuel Pump02 sensorInjectorsManifoldBlow-off valve
If some of them dont matter, at what PSI would you want to get them? Is it a good idea to get new plugs and wires with a new turbo?[/quote]
Check out my site for that answer... it is just too long and has already been answered several times....
Quote » Thats it! thanks all for your help! [/quote]
Did I already say SEARCH!!!
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C-Kwik
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I'll chime in with a few things I didn't see mentioned.
2. Ball-bearing is a better design. More expensive though. Spool up will be perhaps 300-500 RPM sooner. Ball bearings have better thurst load handling capabilities as well. Turbonetics usues a single ball bearing along with a standard sleeve bearing. They claim their bearing set-up handles 100 times more thrust loading than a standard turbo while a dual ball bearing turbo handles only 4 times more. I have no hard data on this.
3. If we had much higher octane fuels, running high compression with a turbo would not be a problem. But most of us do not have access to that kind of fuel.
4. Wastegates are actually not necessary. There are other ways of limiting boost. Restrictors in the intake and/or exhaust are an option. But restrictors in the exhaust tend to cause high backpressure and work against the very thing you are trying to create(more power). Intake restrictors also fight the effor to tmake more power. Both these options require some tiral and error to get right. A BOV/wastegate like device in the intake side can also control boost, but it's also wasteful since the turbo will make more boost than needed, using up heat energy and creating more backpressure for the motor, only to have the boost bled off. A Wastegate in the exhaust is the most efficient solution for controlling boost.
5. Ceramic turbines are indeed lighter but are weaker. From what I've heard they are limited as far as how much they can boost before the wheel breaks.
2. Ball-bearing is a better design. More expensive though. Spool up will be perhaps 300-500 RPM sooner. Ball bearings have better thurst load handling capabilities as well. Turbonetics usues a single ball bearing along with a standard sleeve bearing. They claim their bearing set-up handles 100 times more thrust loading than a standard turbo while a dual ball bearing turbo handles only 4 times more. I have no hard data on this.
3. If we had much higher octane fuels, running high compression with a turbo would not be a problem. But most of us do not have access to that kind of fuel.
4. Wastegates are actually not necessary. There are other ways of limiting boost. Restrictors in the intake and/or exhaust are an option. But restrictors in the exhaust tend to cause high backpressure and work against the very thing you are trying to create(more power). Intake restrictors also fight the effor to tmake more power. Both these options require some tiral and error to get right. A BOV/wastegate like device in the intake side can also control boost, but it's also wasteful since the turbo will make more boost than needed, using up heat energy and creating more backpressure for the motor, only to have the boost bled off. A Wastegate in the exhaust is the most efficient solution for controlling boost.
5. Ceramic turbines are indeed lighter but are weaker. From what I've heard they are limited as far as how much they can boost before the wheel breaks.
haha maybe since these questions are asked so much you could make a sticky out of this, you guys answered them so well and thank you even though there were asked so many times before! Sounds way complicated to do myself, im 17 and only tuning or modding experience I have has been on my 240 that ive had less than a year. Yea its pretty sad, im going to have to learn everything over the net. Doesn't sound like i'll be able to shop for my turbo by myself, or even install it obviously. I got a long ways to go....
Its not that hard to learn everything...I basically rebuilt my entire 240...the only thing I didn't put together was my long block, I let the machine shop do it. It runs great and made 326whp running rich with a mis-fire. Have a little faith, you can learn and do it 
(I'm only 20 and started this when I was 19 btw).
(I'm only 20 and started this when I was 19 btw).
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tar0icy_w/tapioca
- Posts: 122
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