Hybrid??

[DrivingHabit]

Ford is making a focus hyrid or has it been out???

Nice to see a Versa hybrid if it ever happens!

[Red Devil]

Ford is making a focus hyrid or has it been out???

Nice to see a Versa hybrid if it ever happens!

Doubtful, the added weight and price would negate any real gains.

[feloniousmonk]

No. Nissan is not into hybrids. Expect all electric offerings.

[Rockhound]

No. Nissan is not into hybrids. Expect all electric offerings.

Well, considering that a hybrid Altima is available (in CA, CT, MA, ME, NJ, NY, OR, RI, and VT), I wouldn't say that they are entirely 'not into' hybrids. Of course, all they did was license Toyota's Synergy Drive so they wouldn't have to recreate the wheel.

Also, there are reports surfacing that Infiniti is planning on bringing out a hybrid version of the M, possibly in 2010. It would contain proprietary-Nissan hybrid technology, unlike the Altima. Silly move if you ask me, but I guess they think that someone needs to challenge the LS600h for the large luxury sedan hybrid segment, for which shoppers are lined up none-deep.

Who knows what will actually come to market, though. Ghosn mentioned in 2005 that he was not a fan of hybird technology, a year prior to the Altima hybrid release, although he did address that it was mainly a way to meet stringent California guidelines.

Autoblog Infiniti hybrid report: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/0...2010/

[Red Devil]

Well, considering that a hybrid Altima is available (in CA, CT, MA, ME, NJ, NY, OR, RI, and VT), I wouldn't say that they are entirely 'not into' hybrids. Of course, all they did was license Toyota's Synergy Drive so they wouldn't have to recreate the wheel.

Also, there are reports surfacing that Infiniti is planning on bringing out a hybrid version of the M, possibly in 2010. It would contain proprietary-Nissan hybrid technology, unlike the Altima. Silly move if you ask me, but I guess they think that someone needs to challenge the LS600h for the large luxury sedan hybrid segment, for which shoppers are lined up none-deep.

Who knows what will actually come to market, though. Ghosn mentioned in 2005 that he was not a fan of hybird technology, a year prior to the Altima hybrid release, although he did address that it was mainly a way to meet stringent California guidelines.

Autoblog Infiniti hybrid report: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/0...2010/

Haven't they said they wanted a full electric vehicle by 2010/2011?

[VersaMG08]

Nissan will come up with their own Hybrid to compete against the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight. Who knows what the name will be. It makes sense because their needs to be a bigger market for the technology. Not everyone wants to drive an SUV. Especially if you don't have a large family or you're just driving yourself to work or run a few errands.

Personally, I prefer an all electric plug in, no need to worry about lithium batteries aging over time of excessive use. When you're done driving for the day, all you gotta do is park the car in the garage, plug it in for overnight and it will be fully charged the next morning. I'm not sure how the electricity is stored, and what type of battery is uses.

Gas prices will go up before summer guaranteed. It's a trend that occurs every year, oil companies know people tend to drive more and longer during the summer season. Remember the gas prices were above 4 dollars a gallon last June/July? They will want to rake in as much money as possible from the consumer.

[Red Devil]

Nissan will come up with their own Hybrid to compete against the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight. Who knows what the name will be. It makes sense because their needs to be a bigger market for the technology. Not everyone wants to drive an SUV. Especially if you don't have a large family or you're just driving yourself to work or run a few errands.

Personally, I prefer an all electric plug in, no need to worry about lithium batteries aging over time of excessive use. When you're done driving for the day, all you gotta do is park the car in the garage, plug it in for overnight and it will be fully charged the next morning. I'm not sure how the electricity is stored, and what type of battery is uses.

Gas prices will go up before summer guaranteed. It's a trend that occurs every year, oil companies know people tend to drive more and longer during the summer season. Remember the gas prices were above 4 dollars a gallon last June/July? They will want to rake in as much money as possible from the consumer.

If the Insight can even compete with the Prius. It all depends. The Insight is cheaper but not as fuel efficient as the Prius. The new one gets 50 mpg.

[Rockhound]

Gas prices will go up before summer guaranteed. It's a trend that occurs every year, oil companies know people tend to drive more and longer during the summer season. Remember the gas prices were above 4 dollars a gallon last June/July? They will want to rake in as much money as possible from the consumer.

You need to educate yourself on the oil and gas industry, as well as the concept of commodity prices. Oil and natural gas are traded as futures, oil companies have absolutely no say in setting the price of these commodities. If they did, why do you think oil is fluctuating at only around $50/bbl and natural gas at under $4/MMCF? Why would the evil Big Oil companies keep natural gas prices low during winter months, when the lion's share of Americans heat their homes with methane?

Gasoline, as a refined hydrocarbon product, relies heavily on oil prices. Currently, about 47% of the price of a gallon of gasoline goes to the purchase of the crude from whence it came. You also might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of supply and demand, while you're at it. The OPEC countries account for about 40% of the world's oil production. The US has long since passed its glory days of oil production. While we use 25 percent of the world's produced oil, we have less than 3 percent of the world's proven oil reserves.

If OPEC reduces its production of oil, prices rise. Supply, meet demand. And that's commonly what these counties do to control the price in the manner they so choose. So keep in mind that gasoline refineries in the US have to import much of the oil used (about 50% of the oil we use is imported, currently).

Also, the price of gasoline varies across the country due to the emissions regulations of different regions (California, for instance). Certain refineries are equipped to create gasoline with particular formulations - not all refineries can supply gasoline to every market region in the US. So, if a hurricane hits the refineries in the Gulf, it's not always possible for another refinery in another region to make up for the lost refining capacity.

The simple answer for higher gas prices in the summer is because demand increases. And because entities like OPEC know that Americans will be driving more, they can choose to hold back their oil production if they like - they know our import volume will be increasing, why not make a few more bucks on it? Add in unpredictable weather events and 'unrest' leading to cut production in key producing countries (Nigeria, anyone?) and you can see why the price of oil is as volatile as it is (and gasoline, too).

Last but not least, we still have no room to complain about gas prices. Considering the work that goes into exploring for oil, extracting it, transporting it, refining it, and transporting it again, it's a wonder it is as cheap as it is. We were spoiled by the 1990s - the cheapest decade for gasoline (and oil/nat. gas) in the history of oil and gas.

By the way, I'm a petroleum geologist, and I work for a 'mid-major' E&P company. If the average Joe knew what work went into just finding new places to drill, new prospects, new reserves, then they might realize that gasoline is relatively cheap despite the complexities in finding/producing hydrocarbons. Also note that when commodity prices are low (as they are now) it is harder and harder to make an economic well. If we can't anticipate a minimum rate of return on our investment on drilling a well, why drill it? So extended periods of low prices at the pump also mean less domestic oil and gas exploration, so it's a double-edged sword. I only work in the upstream segment of the industry, but it's still my pet-peeve when folks aimlessly complain about gas prices.

[Slither]

Hybrids have no heat in winter driving - wonder about electrics.

I heard oil isn't fossil i.e. from dino's but a naturally occurring process from beneath Earth's crust. When a field is pumped out it replenishes by this process. But big oil prefers we think limited fossil-based supply.

[Rockhound]

I heard oil isn't fossil i.e. from dino's but a naturally occurring process from beneath Earth's crust. When a field is pumped out it replenishes by this process. But big oil prefers we think limited fossil-based supply.

Wow. I hope you're kidding.

Oil does not come from "dinos" - it comes from the thermal cracking of complex hydrocarbons known as kerogen. Kerogen can form from any number of organic sources, such as woody plant material, plankton, and algae. Part of my current work is on a source rock (aka "gas shale") from which we are able to produce natural gas directly. The hydrocarbons produced can be "fingerprinted" using gas chromatography and mass spectrometry to determine what rock formation they came from - no, this isn't voodoo, but actually pretty simple organic geochemistry.

The preservation of organic matter in a source rock depends on anoxic conditions at the time of burial. Most source rocks are deep-ocean shales, which start out as pelagic sediments and algal blooms, plankton, and other organic matter will die and float down through the water column and accumulate on the sea floor. If anoxia exists (a lack of oxygen) then little biogenic activity will be present to consume the organic matter and it can be buried with other sediment prior to lithification.

Then as continued burial occurs, the rock is exposed to higher temperatures and pressures, and the kerogen undergoes thermal reactions and gives off long-chain hydrocarbons (oil) and as these reactions continue, the available hydrogen and carbon from the kerogen is reduced, resulting in shorter and shorter chained hydrocarbons, until all is left is methane (CH4).

The abiogenic granitic crustal source of oil that you speak of is likely based on a Russian study where some crustal natural gas was discovered. Of course there is hydrogen and non-organic carbon in granite, and in fracture veins these molecules can form hydrocarbons. The total world-wide reserves from said reactions is absolutely minimal. Secondly, do you know how deep the granitic basement rocks are across the US in various oil and gas productive sedimentary basins? Deep enough in most areas to make drilling to that depth either a) impossible, or b) so expensive that an economic extraction of these hydrocarbons impossible.

If you like, I could go on. My master's thesis was on hydrocarbon source rocks - have you done any research on the topic?

[fjwagner]

Hybrids have no heat in winter driving - wonder about electrics.

I heard oil isn't fossil i.e. from dino's but a naturally occurring process from beneath Earth's crust. When a field is pumped out it replenishes by this process. But big oil prefers we think limited fossil-based supply.

I often wonder where and how people come up with such gibberish. I am a petroleum engineer and have been working in the industry for 30 years and this is the first time I have ever heard this wild one. I would certainly love to work on one of these self replenishing fields instead of the >500 million dollar polymer injection project we are considering due to declining production. The field has a high viscosity oil that cannot be waterflooded very efficiently, so we are looking at ways to recover another 7 % of the oil in place within the reservoir rock. Oil is not within nice big caverns, but located within the pore spaces of rock.

I guess we do not need to spend that money, just wait for the oil to replenish Please swing by next time you are in Houston and we can put you on the payroll!!! Either that, or educate you.

What Rockhound says is absolutely right. Fred

[fjwagner]

Ford is making a focus hyrid or has it been out???

Nice to see a Versa hybrid if it ever happens!

I just cannot see the love affair with hybrids. Why pay such a premium for the hybrid when good fuel efficient cars are available at a much lower price?

[Rockhound]

I often wonder where and how people come up with such gibberish. I am a petroleum engineer and have been working in the industry for 30 years and this is the first time I have ever heard this wild one. I would certainly love to work on one of these self replenishing fields instead of the >500 million dollar polymer injection project we are considering due to declining production. The field has a high viscosity oil that cannot be waterflooded very efficiently, so we are looking at ways to recover another 7 % of the oil in place within the reservoir rock. Oil is not within nice big caverns, but located within the pore spaces of rock.

I guess we do not need to spend that money, just wait for the oil to replenish Please swing by next time you are in Houston and we can put you on the payroll!!! Either that, or educate you.

What Rockhound says is absolutely right. Fred

That's awesome that you're a petroleum engineer. I started out pursuing a BS in engineering, but geology caught my attention and I found that I had a passion for it. I've been in the industry for 5 years - 1.5 of which as a full-fledged geologist - so I've got an immense amount to learn. But I hope that's always the case.

I've found that most of the whack ideas regarding oil and gas stem from pure ignorance. I'm not trying to be rude, but the average individual is absolutely clueless about the fuel source that we are so addicted to. What's worse is that the basic concepts are, well, basic - you don't need years of schooling to have a working understanding of the industry in general. I guess for most folks it's easier to believe conspiracy theories than to spend a few minutes learning sound scientific principles.

One of the fields I work is made up of several different tight gas sands. I'm working on tweaking our petrophysical evaluation of these formations to see if there are reserves being left behind and to determine how densely we can drill without seeing interference. Of course, sub-$4/MMCF natural gas prices are hampering activity at the moment, but at least it buys us time to do more detailed work. I was watching 4 rigs late last year when prices were up. I think most folks would be blown away to see a hand sample of the 'reservoir' rock that we're producing gas from. With effective porosity in the 5-8% range, it appears to be completely tight.

The contradiction, of course, is that when prices are higher at the pump, it usually means that we can support more domestic drilling, which you think most folks would be in favor of. When the price bottoms out, we tend to import more, some of which comes from countries of questionable alliance with the US. But, we want our cake and to eat it too - so we want cheap gasoline and less dependence on foreign oil. Unfortunately those two cannot completely prevail at the same time.

[feloniousmonk]

Well, considering that a hybrid Altima is available (in CA, CT, MA, ME, NJ, NY, OR, RI, and VT), I wouldn't say that they are entirely 'not into' hybrids. Of course, all they did was license Toyota's Synergy Drive so they wouldn't have to recreate the wheel.

Also, there are reports surfacing that Infiniti is planning on bringing out a hybrid version of the M, possibly in 2010. It would contain proprietary-Nissan hybrid technology, unlike the Altima. Silly move if you ask me, but I guess they think that someone needs to challenge the LS600h for the large luxury sedan hybrid segment, for which shoppers are lined up none-deep.

Who knows what will actually come to market, though. Ghosn mentioned in 2005 that he was not a fan of hybird technology, a year prior to the Altima hybrid release, although he did address that it was mainly a way to meet stringent California guidelines.

Autoblog Infiniti hybrid report: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/0...2010/

The Altima hybrid is an exception. It was a stop-gap measure to prevent market share loss. As you pointed out yourself, it rides on borrowed technology from Toyota. My comment was regarding Nissan, efforts that 100% its own and I wasn't talking about Infiniti. I work on marketing for both brands. Expect to see a all-electric car from Nissan. Information is readily available in past Autoblog entries.
Modified by feloniousmonk at 1:58 PM 4/4/2009

[Slither]

Abiotic.

[feloniousmonk]

I just cannot see the love affair with hybrids. Why pay such a premium for the hybrid when good fuel efficient cars are available at a much lower price?

Hybrids are for those who'd like to think and outwardly show to others that they are doing something good for the environment without actually doing anything of significance. Ask them about issues regarding batteries and disposal of it. I doubt you'll hear any intelligent responses. Environmental impact of producing a Prius is about as high, if not higher, than that of a H2 Hummer.

Personally, I'm less interested in gas-electric hybrids. Diesel-electric hybrids make more sense to me.

[fjwagner]

Abiotic.

so, your reply to technical challenge by both Rockhound and myself is a one word response using a biological term. Made me a believer . Your original post says that you "heard" this. Great. I have heard alot of things that are not true. So, you said that this replenishment comes from beneath the earth's crust. So, how deep? How does this source migrate through the various geologic layers. Some are impermeable as a matter of fact which would make this migration rather difficult. If you are going to present different theories, please enlighten us with some supportable evidence beyond "I heard". Thanks in advance for your upcoming response.

Fred

[fjwagner]

Rockhound - Woodford shale gas? With 5 - 8 percent porosity, I would expect some natural fracturing also.

[Rockhound]

Rockhound - Woodford shale gas? With 5 - 8 percent porosity, I would expect some natural fracturing also.

Well, my thesis focused on the Woodford, but the outfit I work for does not operate any Woodford wells. The tight gas sands I work are of the Cotton Valley/Hosston (Travis Peak, if you go by East Texas nomenclature) variety.

I'm also currently working on another gas shale.

I bet one of the stories that Slither is referring to is an oil field in Vietnam that produces oil from the deep granitic basement rocks. The problem with stories like this is that there is usually a conventional source rock situated rather close that likely sourced the hydrocarbons which were prevented from migrating up section by some impermeable horizon, and migration went either laterally, updip (if the source rock onlaps a basement paleostructure) or just down section, which is not unheard of. Just as Woodford Shale sourced the Hunton (limestone) formation beneath it.

[Bubs daddy]

I'm not convinced of hybrids. They may hang around, they may not. I would prefer a diesel or efficient gasoline engine than the added complexity of a hybrid. I just don't see the advantage when you figure in the added expense and markup of hybrid cars.

I also believe many buy them to "feel good" but if their reason is to "save the planet," please spare me. Walk or ride a bike. Otherwise, it's sanctimonious poppycock, in my opinion.

I can see a future with electric vehicles, perhaps. But the infrastructure would take decades to transition. Necessary, but that's the growing pains of a new technology.

The technology itself would have to be improved significantly before they become as ubiquitous as gasoline cars. I don't care if the range could somehow be 400 miles, even now. Waiting hours to charge is a major impediment to any travel outside local commuting. Colder and warmer climates will tax the electric system further reducing the range of electrics.

The gasoline engine will be here for quite some time. But hybrids, I'm just not convinced. Maybe a stop gap but no more, in my opinion. Time will tell. Give me a robust diesel over a hybrid anyday.

Rockhound's comments regarding gas prices are spot on. At the current $1.80 a gallon, it's a bargain, especially when adjusted for inflation. Even at $3.00, still a pretty good deal. Especially when you consider what others are paying.

[Slither]

Did I hit a raw nerve?

Abiotic oil - do a Thesis on it.

[Rockhound]

Did I hit a raw nerve?

Abiotic oil - do a Thesis on it.

Well, for me it's definitely a pet peeve to have people who are clearly clueless about the oil and gas industry throw out 'theories' that they've 'heard' and believe them as proven fact.

Like the 'fact' that oil companies set the price of commodities.

Or the 'fact' that oil has no biotic source.

Both are clearly out of touch with reality if you actually know what you're talking about, which I do.

[Red Devil]

Well, for me it's definitely a pet peeve to have people who are clearly clueless about the oil and gas industry throw out 'theories' that they've 'heard' and believe them as proven fact.

Like the 'fact' that oil companies set the price of commodities.

Or the 'fact' that oil has no biotic source.

Both are clearly out of touch with reality if you actually know what you're talking about, which I do.

We could turn him into oil. It'd take a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time but it'd be worth it.

As far as hybrids are concerned, stop gap solution. We need to get away from fossil fuels. I like where Honda is going with the FCX Clarity. That to is a stop gap though. Even a full electric vehicle will have an environmental impact. Electricity just doesn't poof out of nowhere. It'll take a long time, maybe even past our lifetimes, till we can fully ween ourselves off of fossil fuel and generated electricity that has pollution as a byproduct.

[fjwagner]

Did I hit a raw nerve?

Abiotic oil - do a Thesis on it.

the only nerve you hit is your outward display of ignorance and your unwillingness to explain your own theory like others do with theirs. You suggest that we do our own research on your unsubstantiated theory. No thanks. Lay out your facts so we can then comment. Unless you dont have any which would be my assumption. Your science teacher will be proud of you. Stopping your report after you write down your hypothesis. Fred

[Slither]

This is a car blog not an infomercial for big oil - take the agenda elsewhere.

[Rockhound]

This is a car blog not an infomercial for big oil - take the agenda elsewhere.

You need to slow down and read these posts a little more carefully. I don't work for "Big Oil" - I work for an American independent exploration and production (that's what E&P means) company. We don't own our own rigs, we don't transport our hydrocarbons, and we don't do any refining or other downstream operations.

The only agenda I have is right and wrong, correct and incorrect. And you're wrong.

When I read some awfully misguided posts like yours and Mile High Versa's, yes, I will post the truth on the matter to set the record straight. Only your own comprehension skills will determine if you understand what I say.

[fjwagner]

This is a car blog not an infomercial for big oil - take the agenda elsewhere.

you know what Slither, you started it with your abiotic comment and you do not have the knowledge to defend your comment. As such, you get angry and want to shut down a discussion that you initiated. In the future, please do not toss out uninformed comments and then run when you are challenged. If you post something, then be prepared to discuss or do not post it at all. This has not been a big informercial for big oil, but an effort to set fundamental facts straight that are completely unrelated to the size of an oil company. Come spend a day in our office and I will be very happy to help you understand. You may contact me on the website anytime.

Fred
Modified by fjwagner at 4:53 PM 4/5/2009

[Red Devil]

This is a car blog not an infomercial for big oil - take the agenda elsewhere.

If by blog you mean internet forum......

[feloniousmonk]

If by blog you mean internet forum......

Right, it'd be a lot more informative if it was one... instead we get rampant slandering by those who don't understand the very points they defend. Entertaining nonetheless.

[audtatious]

Actually, this discussion would be just fine in the Gen Chat section. Not necessarily in a thread about hybrids.

Nissan could bring out a hybrid (used very loosely) Versa as they do have a AWD Tiida with electric-powered rear wheels. It's not to increase gas mileage tho (that I'm aware of) but for traction. It uses the E-ATx 4-speed automatic transmission and electric motors in the back.