humans, inherently good or basically evil?

[themadscientist]

Why the Politics forum? It's bound to get political and I think we have a more active thinking constituency here than general chat. FTW, IBTL, ZOMG I seent a GT-R and all that drivel. It's a question with IMO no easy answer and I think could generate not so much debate as group analysis.

For myself I think high concepts like good and evil, right and wrong are bull**** that humans tell themselves so they feel superior to all the other critters walking the earth. "I think therefore I am" and all that rot. I do beleive that a group can collectively arrive at societal norms that they agree are "good" or "right" and those that the mutually decide are "evil" or "wrong". That is fine and I really don't have a problem with that. I think any large group of individuals cohabitating must do this to ensure reasonable harmony, productivity and not just the prosperity of but the very basic survival of the group. This can be seen in any community in the animal kingdom and at its most basic conceptual level translates to us as well.

Now here is the rub for me. When people get on their soap box and start passing judgement, using these concepts as if they were rigidly defined natural laws. They are not in the company of truth and fact like gravity, or a life form's need for water or the fact that Paulie Shore movies suck. They are a law of a sort as I illustrated but the need for a set of societal norms must be deliniated from exact content of those norms I think.

While it is true that in most Japanese homes one must lose the shoes at the door the suggestion that it is "right" in any place other than within the group that has decided that is the SOP is silly. Nobody asked America about the shoe thing, they did not agree to it so it is not "wrong" that they wear shoes in the house. Americans love beef, I know I eat many times my own weight each year. An Indian fellow would find that shocking as it offends his group's concept of right and wrong. He does not have the right to impose that belief upon Americans in their own country though and similarly the American has no right to ridecule his beliefs from outside his group.

World events have been cast in a time of a shrinking globe. We are the same physical distance but we are much closer in a practical sense because of technology. This is bringing a myriad of cultures and belief structures into kissing distance and I think everyone is having trouble finding a balance. "Them" for the most part was people far away one would never meet and it would be very easy to wrap oneselve in the quilt of the group "morals" and judge others. That is old news though, that thinking doesn't fly because now that people are forced to interact with people who think "right" and "wrong" are different than what they do.

The fundamental problem, I think at least is what I pointed to earlier. The inability for humans to admit that these concepts of "good" and "evil", "right" and "wrong", "moral" and "immoral" are just concepts. They are mental constructs and as such cannot be translated to the natural world of survival of the fittest. That is a hard and fast law. Despite our technology and self actualization we are still subject to it. I get that and I am perfectly fine with it. As a result though I may harbor personal rules that "civilized" people would find repugnant.

When a guy tried to rob another guy and the criminal is shot dead I don't care, **** him. His ambition exceeded his abilities and the other person effectively retained his status in the big zoo we call the world by taking him out. Some person fails at life decides rather than continue to fight he will instead climb into a cardboard box and drink himselve to death screw him, he made his play and failed. Don't stick your hand out and expect me to feel sorry for you. Can't feed the three kids you have, don't have a fourth one!

I don't think anything that happens is good or evil. I do not seperate the human being from the natural world. People are capable are incredible feats of both conceptually good and evil but I don't buy into that as anything more than something most of us have agreed to go along with. I don't indescriminately kill but if you come in my house through the window rest assured I will do my best to make sure you leave in a bag. Because you are evil and I am good? No, rather simply because this is mine and just like any other animal if you want it you have to subvert my intentions with your own. If you can do it you are the fittest in my book, not "evil" just a tougher animal and I am dead because I was not up to the challenge.This is why I am "pro gun", a gun is just a tool to exert influence like any other. depending on who gets shot, the circumstance and the societal norms of the group determines if it was a "good" or "bad" shooting, nothing more.

What my Liberal freinds and many Conservatives as well don't want to come to grips with is that humans are neither good nor evil, just animals. Animals can be loving and compassionate or vicious and dangerous. That Ipod doesn't make you a higher life form, it makes you a monkey with a more complex toy who has deluded himself that he is closer to "god". And by "god" I don't mean a being higher than himself as the popular religions espouse but rather himself. The longer humans think they are better than any other animal the more they come to beleive they are gods.This is why watching people whine about global warming cracks me up. the serious talk about the possibility that we alone are responsible for what may or may not be happening smeels of pride. the talk that we have the capablity to change the very climate of a planet, a PLANET smacks of a god complex.

Where am i going with this? Hell I don't know I am to lazy to try to edit and try to form these musings into a mission statement. I just had it bouncing around in my head and thought it might be an interesting discussion.

[Marenta]

That's such an in-depth post, I don't really know where to start from.

I do agree with you for a large majority of what you have said. The only issue I have is the fact that we are animals. I am not refuting that we are, indeed, animals. I am refuting the fact that at the base of it, we choose to do wrong.

We were given the choice of free will, and free thought. Which sets us apart from the rest of the animals in the kingdom on this lonely ball of metals in our solar system, and quite possibly our galaxy. But, the fact is, we will always choose to further ourselves, and that makes us lean toward doing the bad things for the most part.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we all want to go out and kill the punk that just cut us off this morning on our drive into work. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we've all chosen to do something that we KNOW is inherently "wrong" (lying, cheating, stealing) because in our minds the benefit outweighed the costs of retribution.

All animals in the world will try to protect what is theirs, and they will throw themselves to their death if they believe that it is their only way. Not us, we will connive, beg, and whimper to ensure our survival. Is it because we know how small and insignificant we all are? Is it because we are all afraid of what is truly on the other side? Is it because we're greedy, and we just don't want to give up what we have? I don't know, but I do know that there is no animal that would not rush into a hopeless situation to save their young. Very few animals in the world also kill for their own pleasure, I can think of 2 off-hand and that's it.

Is it because we have raised ourselves to a higher level of awareness and information that we are this way? No, we have always been this way. We covet what others have, and we deny the fact that what we have is good enough.

I, for one, believe that the human race is the worst thing to ever touch the face of this planet. For as advanced as we are, for as much knowledge and understanding as we seek, we still fight, we still bleed, we still die. The wheel keeps on turning, and the world will not end when you pass away. I have yet to this day seen a truly selfless act, for the intent to be altruistic is not there with us. Most people over-analyze situations, and therefore their thoughts become corrupt, and the more twisted the thinking is, the more believable they think an outrageous display will garner results.

Would I sacrifice myself for the human race? Not as it stands today. Would I do it if our numbers were thinned out drastically? Yes. Would I kill my own son if I knew he were going to be the next Stalin? In the blink of an eye. Would I kill myself if I knew I were going to be the next Stalin? Without a doubt. On the other hand, I wouldn't hesitate to lay my life down for his either. Maybe I'm just twisted, or deluded, or just plain-ole ****ed up; but I do know that the human race is a disease, and sometimes I wish there were something that would come along to make us a unified peoples, so we stop hurting this planet and the creatures in it.

[Cold_Zero]

I hold to the biblical doctrine of Original Sin. So humans are evil and sinful.

[rn79870]

What my Liberal freinds and many Conservatives as well don't want to come to grips with is that humans are neither good nor evil, just animals. Animals can be loving and compassionate or vicious and dangerous

You need to factor in environmental issues to answer that question. For instance, I doubt many people would consider cannibalism anything but evil, but when viewed from a survival issue, it's acceptable. The Donner party, the group of people who crashed in the Mountains in South America all had to resort to cannibalism, they did it for survival.

I went to a distant relatives funeral a few years back. That side of the family was very, very Italian. The guys all hugs and kissed each other. Clearly, that's something our society doesn't accept as normal, yet it was normal for them.

Why do you wear clothes. Society demands it. Like many things, society has defined good and evil based on it's needs and the events affecting it.

I'm interested in what Greg, Helio, and the others have to say on this topic.

[numbnuts240]

i have a feeling that i am going to like this thread very much. where to begin...well, the whole humans are nothing but animals is completely true, as far as i'm concerned anyways. you can argue that we "know" the difference between right and wrong and that's what separates us from the other animals all day, but if you think about it, how is a pack of wolves, for example, any different than us? a subordinate wolf acts out, and another wolf, higher up the chain of command, puts him/her in its place. do we not do the same? our knowledge of right and wrong is nothing more than adapted natural instinct of hierarchy. humans are pack animals. we seeks safety in numbers, and by instinct, we appoint the most eligible candidates as leaders. it used to be the most physically fit and survival experienced, but now it's more complex than that, due to our evolved brains and methods of reasoning.

let's explore this a little deeper. but before we do so, reach under your mattress, and right next to last month's copy of smut, you should find your imagination, we're going to need this for the next part of the ride. consider this, modern man never discovers the ability to harness, and create, fire, he never creates the wheel. basically, he is stuck with nothing but crude tools and weapons for hunting. evolution has not allowed him to progress any further. one guy steals another's kill. what's to say that the victim doesn't smash the thief in the face with a grapefruit sized rock? no one said he couldn't do it, and no one is going to punish him for it either. let's try a different scenario. modern age, we have all the luxuries we do today, but we live in a society where mutual respect for one another takes place instead of laws and law enforcement. someone is greedy and decides to steal your jewelry while you are out. let's put a different perspective on it, the person's family is starving and needs to sell your jewelry to feed their family. or maybe they're family's life is threatened unless they carry out someone else's vendetta against your mother in their place. it really doesn't matter, you won't know, shoot first, ask questions later. anyways, they commit said heinous act, no laws, you feel disrespected in the worse way, do you seek revenge, despite the "evilness" of it?

the point i'm drawing on here is that we don't "know" the difference between right and wrong, it's something that our respective societies instill upon us when we are young. those who commit crimes may not necessarily be "evil", they are just deviants. deviants in the literal definition of the word where they just deviate from the norm. they are the lone wolves, shunned by their pack, forced to live in solitude. many times these wolves will try to regain a position in the pack, even if it is at the bottom of the totem pole, it's realized that something is better than nothing. like i stated earlier, humans are just pack animals, with a more complex sense of society.

long winded, maybe. nonsensical, hopefully not.

[AZhitman]

I'll go in more depth later, but here's my quick-and-dirty take on it:

I believe in God. I believe in Creation (but not the *poof* kind from Sunday school). I believe in Heaven and Hell, but again, not the Sunday school version...

Anyhow, here ya go: I believe humans are born inherently good, kind and loving (in the absence of severe mental defects or chemical imbalances). I believe soon after birth, we learn ways to get what we want and desire, and in a nod to a micro-evolutionary conservation of effort and energy (read: laziness), we sometimes take shortcuts.

When said shortcuts aren't consequenced (either naturally - hot stove, or externally - SMACK!), they're reinforced.

I think the BIGGER problem comes when we're all forced to interact and coexist on this ball of mud, and what WE want interferes with what someone else wants.

I'm a big proponent of "live and let live"... If you want to drive an SUV, smoke dope, run about nekkid, put your jimmy in some guy's tush, wave a Bible, burn a flag, make a racist joke, fart in the elevator, speak kindness and love, talk to yourself, pick your nose, collect guns, leer at schoolgirls, dance the Mamba in a muu-muu, or vote for Obama, I don't give a DAMN. Knock yourself out.

BUT

I DO have an issue when those rights infringe on my rights. Now, there's the fine line, and we've discussed it before.

Here's the deal - I'm a strong advocate for natural consequences. If my son is out with his buddies and he makes the moves on some guy's wife, puts a hand on her backside, and the guy decides to pimpslap him, well, sucks to be him.

OMG!

Yep. Natural consequences. Now, he (my son) has to weigh the consquences of his actions. Absent any legal intervention, he must decide whether he can deal with those potential consequences. Should he talk his way out of it, apologize, buy the couple a drink? Or, should he take his smack like a man and say, "Ouch. I deserved that" and walk out.

Likewise, the husband, seeing the incident, needs to consider same potential consequences. Will he get beat down? Will he be rewarded by his lady for being chivalrous? Will she bail on him because he's a "brute"?

All that has to be considered, and if we leave the legal implications (i.e. government) out of it, it can usually be reconciled without much drama.

Here's something I've thought for a long time, and every time I say it to someone, it comes back to me somehow, and I think it's pretty profound:

People make the best decisions they can, given their capacity and the information available to them at the time. I don't think anyone really gets up in the morning thinking, "I'm gonna go ruin someone's day."

I DO think people fail to consider the consequences of their actions, and I think we've erected too many barriers to natural consequences.

In the Old West, politeness reigned. Before you buy into the movie stereotypes, do some reading and think about why that was the case... "The Law" only got involved when there was a crime against the community. Otherwise, the aggrieved party took care of business. Sometimes, they overstepped. But that's the CHANCE the perpetrator TAKES, and that made for a DETERRENT effect.

The strong looked out for the weak. The old widow woman was looked after. The kids knew if they messed around in Old Man Beasley's turnip patch, they might catch a whuppin', and their Paw would follow up with another - and then thank Beasley with a pint of hooch.

Look at our community here... how many otherwise "good" members say something via the boards that they'd NEVER say face-to-face? Lots.

Because there's anonymity, a complete removal of consequence. If I'm in a thread with Repo Man, and I tell him he's a chicken**** assclown, he's in Indiana. Nothing happens. But I do it in person, he'll shove me up my own a$$. DOH!

Anyhow, I'm rambling. I hope this was what you were looking for Bobby... If I got off-target, lemme know and I'll come back later with some more nuggets (or turds, whichever you consider them).

[Marenta]

That was quick and dirty, AZ? Wow, remind me never to get into a debacle with you.

I have to disagree with you, AZ on the fact that we're born good. I think we're born neutral. I think we have to be taught good or bad. I think that if we're left without direction, we will inherently stray towards doing bad things because it is the easiest route to take and therefore the most rewarding oft times.

But, there are a lot of factors, as RN mentioned that come into play other than just being born. The environment is a huge one. If I'm born into a crack whore house, I'm not going to get nearly the education I'd get if I were born into an upper-class white family. That's just the way of the world, and it just sucks to say it, but yeah, that's just how it is.

Another really big thing that comes into play is genetics. Now, you can fight your demons, and you can overcome a lot of struggles and your past and your heritage and your neighborhood, but you just cannot win against who your mother and father were. If your mother was a psycho-depressant with bi-polar disorder and your father was a raging alcoholic who was orphaned as a child; obviously you're going to have some very strong genetic makeup to become just as troubled as they are. Then again, you might not pick up that propensity to have those issues. Nobody in my family, that I know of to this day, suffers from migraines and headaches like I do.. yet I have them.

So, if you can make a human have no genetic code from any specific human, then you might be able to make a blank slate. But, as humans, we are so imperfect, it's our nature to err.