carloslebaron wrote:

AppleBonker wrote:For giggles, what is the cause of the "malfunction" you speak? If the theory of relativity is a farce, as you claim, it should be easily provable what is causing the "malfunction" since it appears to occur on all time-keeping devices, no?

About malfunction of clocks. Do this simple experiment. Buy the cheaper watches you can find in the store. Those Chinese watches that might cost about five bucks. Buy about five or more. Set their calibration at the same hour, minute and second. Keep their records for a week, be sure that they have a same new battery installed in them, and that they still in aggrement with their timing.

After a week, choose two watches and put them inside the freezer compartment of your refrigerator. Keep the record of the difference of seconds between the watches, the ones outside and the ones inside the refrigerator.

You will notice that the "delay" of the functional work on the watches inside the freezer compartment is "regular", this is to say, the same -lets say- six seconds a day.

Now, remove those watches after a week and replasce them by another two and return the affected watches back to normal temperature, you will notice that the returned back to normal temperature won't have the delay anymore while the other two will swart to show it at a regular rate.

This is how temperature affects the functional work on cheap watches.

You must know that there is not such a thing as the "immaculate clock" that is never affected by gravity, acceleration, solar radiation, etc etc...because to believe in such a thing should be a religious stuff, then, having that the atomic clocks are made of matter, and that matter suffers changes wihen is exposed to different environments, it is expected that the clocks -atomic or not- functional work will suffer changes.

You can't go against facts, and fact is that it is a malfunction in the atomic clocks exposed to outer space or acceleration or any other change in their environment.

Cheers.

Total idiocy.

Atomic clocks have compensation for the usual physical environmental conditions of temperature and pressure, etc. and are not affected by them.

Nothing like your cheap wrist-watch situation.

The only effect height and gravity changes and motion have are the ones that are completely explained by Relativity equations.

As usual, your daft post has nothing to do with reality.

Z

Here is an amateur time geek displaying the knowledge which is so common place today - and even his kids now know more about time than carloslebaron too! :

http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... ntPage=all

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/12/time_hackers?currentPage=all wrote:A retired Unix kernel programmer, Van Baak began buying time instruments a decade ago, slowly building what today is probably the best-equipped, individually owned time lab in the world, exceeding the capability of many national labs. His gear lets him perform some impressive experiments. Two years ago, he realized he'd acquired the capability to offer his children a demonstration of one of the effects predicted by Einstein's general theory of relativity -- a demonstration that Einstein himself couldn't have performed with the equipment of his day.

The theory says time passes slowly for someone near a massive object, as measured relative to someone farther away. On Earth, this effect is so small as to be undetectable to all but the most precise equipment, putting demonstrations beyond the reach of, say, a typical high school science fair. Consequently, "kids grow up thinking relativity is only for really fast speeds or really heavy gravity," says Van Baak.

He wanted his children to see that relativity is proportional. So he loaded the family's blue minivan with portable power supplies, monitoring equipment, and three HP 5071 cesium clocks. Three, because time is always marked relative to other clocks: More clocks mean more accurate time. With his three kids and some camping gear in tow, he drove the winding roads spiraling up Washington's Mt. Rainier and checked the family into a lodge 5,319 feet above sea level.

They hiked the trails, and the kids relaxed with board games and books, while in the imperceptibly lessened gravity, time moved a little bit faster than at home. Van Baak found himself explaining to park rangers more than once why a minivan filled with inscrutable equipment was idling in front of the national park lodge for hours on end. But the effort paid off. When the family returned to the suburbs two days later, the cesium clocks were off by the precise amount relativity predicted. He and his family had lived just a little more life than the neighbors.
"It was the best extra 22 nanoseconds I've ever spent with the kids," Van Baak says.

Z

szh wrote:

carloslebaron wrote: About malfunction of clocks. Do this simple experiment. Buy the cheaper watches you can find in the store. Those Chinese watches that might cost about five bucks. Buy about five or more. Set their calibration at the same hour, minute and second. Keep their records for a week, be sure that they have a same new battery installed in them, and that they still in aggrement with their timing.

After a week, choose two watches and put them inside the freezer compartment of your refrigerator. Keep the record of the difference of seconds between the watches, the ones outside and the ones inside the refrigerator.

You will notice that the "delay" of the functional work on the watches inside the freezer compartment is "regular", this is to say, the same -lets say- six seconds a day.

Now, remove those watches after a week and replace them by another two and return the affected watches back to normal temperature, you will notice that the returned back to normal temperature won't have the delay anymore while the other two will start to show it at a regular rate.

This is how temperature affects the functional work on cheap watches.

You must know that there is not such a thing as the "immaculate clock" that is never affected by gravity, acceleration, solar radiation, etc etc...because to believe in such a thing should be a religious stuff, then, having that the atomic clocks are made of matter, and that matter suffers changes when is exposed to different environments, it is expected that the clocks -atomic or not- functional work will suffer changes.

You can't go against facts, and fact is that it is a malfunction in the atomic clocks exposed to outer space or acceleration or any other change in their environment.

Cheers.

Total idiocy.

Atomic clocks have compensation for the usual physical environmental conditions of temperature and pressure, etc. and are not affected by them.

Nothing like your cheap wrist-watch situation.

The only effect height and gravity changes and motion have are the ones that are completely explained by Relativity equations.

As usual, your daft post has nothing to do with reality.

Z

You have said it, atomic clocks have been tested and passed the test on temperature and pressure, but that's all, atomic clocks have not been tested against acceleration (the example of yours about the three atomic clocks in a car, that example is as fraudulent as the one given by another dude who wrote that when accelerating his car traveling from Nevada to New York he noticed that his watch showed a big delay of more than 30 seconds... .)

The experiment with cheap watches stands, because it shows that clocks' malfunction happen, and that the delay of the watches inside the freezer is at a regular rate. The same will happen with atomic clocks, because they do show a malfunction at a regular rate as well.

Relativity has NEVER EVER EXPLAINED HOW TIME DILATES, because nothing is explained with symbols and numbers,and that is not how real science works. The theoretical part in science is just the use of symbols and numbers to understand quantities, not so the process. Equations explain nothing but equalities. Period.

Lets clear up this part, because apparently you are lost in this.

Example: When the store attendant was distracted a burglar took a gold ring and hidden it in his packet:

Question to a police investigator: What happened? Answer: A suspect of about 150 pounds, white, with tattoos in his neck, managed to introduce a screwdriver to open the counter's lower door and took a ring.

Question to a witness: What happened? Answer: A skinny guy hasjust stolen an expensive gold ring, it was a thick one.

Question to a Relativist: What happened? Answer: 150 pounds plus 12 grams.

Is that how you explain how time dilates as well? How dare....? Come on, give me a brake!

So, explain right here the mechanism that acts over time to make it behave in such a way. You say that time dilates, so explain how this happens. Show how gravity affects it, how acceleration affects it. Show the pictures, explain the mechanism.

Your failure to answer in specific what I ask, is the clear evidence that the theory of Relativity is a good for nothing theory. No more links, no more babbling, just explain the mechanism, it is due since 1905..ha ha ha...

Cheers.

Total idiocy as usual. This will be my last response to your trolling - I am wasting my time and don't need to do so anymore.

I will only point out one or two things finally, (since most of your post is utter garbage - suffice it to say that with today's scales, (a) it is easily possible to measure the 2 gram difference without any problem and (b) relativity effects are easily measured since the changes are well above the resolution and accuracy required of the measuring instruments - i.e., the atomic clocks).

Earlier, you said:

the atomic clocks are made of matter, and that matter suffers changes wihen is exposed to different environments, it is expected that the clocks -atomic or not- functional work will suffer changes.

And now you are saying:

atomic clocks have been tested and passed the test on temperature and pressure

You can't even keep your own story straight!

atomic clocks have not been tested against acceleration

Yes, they have - velocity and acceleration are compensated by Relativity effects as a matter of fact - even though in the three clock driver case, there was no real acceleration or velocity involved - he measured the clocks statically at the beginning and end of his trip and was only showing the effects of lowered gravity for the duration of his stay at a higher level!

the one given by another dude who wrote that when accelerating his car traveling from Nevada to New York he noticed that his watch showed a big delay of more than 30 seconds...

Please provide a reference for this lie. By the way, If he continually "accelerated" his car from New York to Nevada, he might indeed have been getting close to some fraction of light speed by the end of his trip and 30 seconds might not have been an error!

Yes, your story is fradulent - just as much as the joke about the guy who tried to get out of going through a red light by claiming relativity at his speeds caused him to see the red light as green ... when the judge was told how fast the driver would have to be going, he gave a speeding ticket instead of arguing.

Z

szh wrote:Total idiocy as usual. This will be my last response to your trolling - I am wasting my time and don't need to do so anymore.

I will only point out one or two things finally, (since most of your post is utter garbage - suffice it to say that with today's scales, (a) it is easily possible to measure the 2 gram difference without any problem and (b) relativity effects are easily measured since the changes are well above the resolution and accuracy required of the measuring instruments - i.e., the atomic clocks).

Earlier, you said:

the atomic clocks are made of matter, and that matter suffers changes wihen is exposed to different environments, it is expected that the clocks -atomic or not- functional work will suffer changes.

And now you are saying:

atomic clocks have been tested and passed the test on temperature and pressure

You can't even keep your own story straight!

atomic clocks have not been tested against acceleration

Yes, they have - velocity and acceleration are compensated by Relativity effects as a matter of fact - even though in the three clock driver case, there was no real acceleration or velocity involved - he measured the clocks statically at the beginning and end of his trip and was only showing the effects of lowered gravity for the duration of his stay at a higher level!

the one given by another dude who wrote that when accelerating his car traveling from Nevada to New York he noticed that his watch showed a big delay of more than 30 seconds...

Please provide a reference for this lie. By the way, If he continually "accelerated" his car from New York to Nevada, he might indeed have been getting close to some fraction of light speed by the end of his trip and 30 seconds might not have been an error!

Yes, your story is fradulent - just as much as the joke about the guy who tried to get out of going through a red light by claiming relativity at his speeds caused him to see the red light as green ... when the judge was told how fast the driver would have to be going, he gave a speeding ticket instead of arguing.

Z

When it is said that atomic clocks are not affected by temperature and pressure, it doesn't mean that are immune to such changes of environment, but that the data is affected as its minimum

A simple example is to say that a jogger who runs everyday at 70F will be exposed to run in a new environment at 35F. After checking his health it is found that such change of temperature won't affect neither his capabilities of jogging and neither his health. But, surely the body reacted different to the colder temperature, but the conclusion is valid because the changes weren't noticeable enough to say that affected the jogger's health

But, what is was not in mind is acceleration. The atomic clock works by having in its internal mechanism to the atom of Caesium which vibration frequency signals are send to a receiver that acts as a counting bill machine. This is to say, the like counting bill machine will count 9,192,631,770 wave signals and will make a tic, this is to say, a second. When you move the atomic clock, such motion of the clock will affect the internal functional work.

We can compare this situation with the car digital TV receivers sold in eBay, which work great when they are connected to your TV monitor as long as the car is still standing, but that the images will become blurred or gone as soon as you move the vehicle. This is the intereference caused by the motion of the vehicle affecting the reception of signals. No matter if you are in Summer or Winter, at sea level or high in the mountain, the reception of signals won't be affected as much as when you move the vehicle.

Today, there is a chip made for the car digital TV receivers, that will clear up such interference and you will be able to move the vehicle watchging TV programs. You can see the new digital TV receivers online, they are huge, they are more suitable for RV's.

With a much smaller rate, atomic clocks are sensitive to acceleration. In the field, to make the atomic clocks useful at their maximum, there is also a chip that will update the affected data caused by the malfunction of the atomic clocks in space. This "updating"chip can be installed in the receiver located on ground zero or in the satellite.

As you can see, there is no magic here, there is not such a ghostly time being dilated, and neither that bunch of nerdy equations and formulas from a hoax theory are needed, I strongly think that all this farce about Relativity used by Nasa is to keep lots of scientists avoiding unemployment services, because in reality, relativists are not needed at all in any place of the world.

When you said that this is you "last" response to this thread, where are you going now with such lies and fantasies of Relativity? You have no escape, because from now on several people will ask you: show the mechanism,...and you have nothing to show and neither will have a place to hide...so you better wake up to this reality: Relativity is just a story tell.

alms24sebring wrote:

Don't worry ... his examples are so obviously made-up and nonsensical (huge digital TV receivers, miracle chips that correct for malfunctioning atomic clocks, etc. ) and simply have no relation to the topic - notice the lack of any links to any information.

I am stopping feeding this troll.

Z

carloslebaron wrote:You can't go against facts, and fact is that it is a malfunction in the atomic clocks exposed to outer space or acceleration or any other change in their environment.

You missed the point. Your freezer experiment is interesting, but completely irrelevant. Given that all time-keeping devices "malfunction" in precisely the same manner when relocated to space, please tell me what, specifically, the cause is for that "malfunction". If it is as simple as you are leading me to believe, it should have some documented proof somewhere. A source of your information would be useful.

Note: I am not trying to prove you wrong. I'm asking you for proof of your assertion. This is exactly how science works. You have submitted one hypothesis and I am asking you to prove it out.