planning on getting a 1990 240sx hatch soon of my neighbor, wicked car, and i already picked out a body kit and have some plans for it.
One thing i wanted to do was to strip it down and repaint it black, ( not too much of a cherry person... plus too much red on the road) anyway.
while the car is missing its interior, i need some tips or ideas on how to make the car feel "solid" once i put everything back in. By solid i mean a mk4 vw solid, or a volvo solid. I have a civic sitting in my driveway that just rumbles too much, at high speed there is various noises from here and there, squeeks and a general feeling of flimslyness ( is that even a word?) during hard cornering.
A welded in rollercage would be a plus, but are there roll cages that dont interfere with getting in and out of the car? this will be a daily driver so i dont want to turn it into an uber sports car. So any good links to companies that could provide something like this would be welcome
strut tie bars is an obviouse one, so i'm gonna do those
but any other ideas would be welcome, maybe something external...?? like welded bars underneath the car or something?
also what should i use to fill the empty space between the frame and the plastic interiour panels? i was thinking that foamy stuff you use to seal cracks in your house ( the yellow stuff that you spray and it turns into this spunge like thing.. you know) spray it up, clean it up so that the panels fit with no force, sound deaden the car.. good idea no?
i just want to make it so that when i'm in the car, i can physicaly feel it, i dont really care if i add a little bit of weight to it, sure i like going fast, but low quarter mile times are not my priority. ( if i wanted to run 10 seconds i would put a vr6 in a vw rabbit and then turbo it!)
so any ideas suggestions and so forth! remeber that the whole car will be stripped from the inside, so various interior moldings/carpet special are welcome too.
thx
How to make my car feel more "solid"
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lessthanjakejohn
- Posts: 4105
- Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:39 am
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Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
Yeah, that's one solution. A nice soft suspension that makes your car handle like a 70's land yacht.lessthanjakejohn wrote:so you want a cadillac?
Keep in mind that you're talking about a 13 year old car. Stuff's gonna rattle and squeak. You can fix the major things, but it's gonna be tough to track down everything.
I suppose you could re-tourque everything and hope for the best. You could use something like Loctite's threadlocker stuff to make sure problem area don't come loose again. Of course, it's gonna be a pain in the a$$ to remove whatever you've used the threadlocker on.
The "flimslyness" during hard cornering can be addressed with a variety of suspension mods, I'm sure. Someone already mentioned bushings. Of course, a stiffer suspension is gonna lead to more vibration, so you're back to that issue.
Perhaps the answer is a) torque everything to spec when you put your interior back together and b)use a GOOD sound deadening material. It will add weight, but might help with a lot of road noise. Also make sure your tires are in good shape, strut mounts are still good, heat shields aren't loose...
I'm sure I've missed something, but this should be a start.
Try searching for Dynamat sound deadening material. There are other brands, but I believe Dynamat is pretty well respected.
Badmojo...I grew up in Reading... I visit anually if Business permits. More than likely, I'm twice your age, lol... so I doubt we know each other.
Anyway...Badmojo has a good point. The car is older so its going to have rattles and vibration. While the interior is out, spray everything with undercoating before you put it back together. That should take out the vibrations alittle. Dynamat is the whip at making things quiet but it's heavy... Personally I just turn the music up and I can barely hear my exhaust let alone a rattle because my jack is loose under the spare.
Anyway...Badmojo has a good point. The car is older so its going to have rattles and vibration. While the interior is out, spray everything with undercoating before you put it back together. That should take out the vibrations alittle. Dynamat is the whip at making things quiet but it's heavy... Personally I just turn the music up and I can barely hear my exhaust let alone a rattle because my jack is loose under the spare.
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
Some chassis bracing will help. If you don't mind a little intrusion, a 4 point or 6 point cage might help. There is some 2-part foam that you can inject into your rocker panels as well to firm it up some. I believe it even comes standard in certain infiniti's. I't not an insulating foam. Don't get that. It's very specific. I don't remember any brand names.
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Structure240sx
- Posts: 5615
- Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 5:04 pm
To have a really solid car.
-Bushings all around, TC Rods, etc.
-Upper/Lower Front/Rear Strut bars to stiffen up the chassis.
-Swaybars and shocks.
- To Eliminate Rattles and such i would buy Fatmat or similar (like Dynamat but cheaper) and cover the entire *** car with around the 100 (or even 2) sq ft. package ($100 deal). it DOES eliminate all the vibration from the car.
- If you want it cadillac quit i would put a "sound barrier" also, we are talking Lexus, Cadillac quitness.
- Wheels and tires (Thinner sidewall = Less flex from the tires = more solid feel in cornering)
- And put all you pannels and stuff in the car is not heavy and it lookes so much better then bare metal, if you put fatmat you wont have rattles at all.
Thats about it.
-Bushings all around, TC Rods, etc.
-Upper/Lower Front/Rear Strut bars to stiffen up the chassis.
-Swaybars and shocks.
- To Eliminate Rattles and such i would buy Fatmat or similar (like Dynamat but cheaper) and cover the entire *** car with around the 100 (or even 2) sq ft. package ($100 deal). it DOES eliminate all the vibration from the car.
- If you want it cadillac quit i would put a "sound barrier" also, we are talking Lexus, Cadillac quitness.
- Wheels and tires (Thinner sidewall = Less flex from the tires = more solid feel in cornering)
- And put all you pannels and stuff in the car is not heavy and it lookes so much better then bare metal, if you put fatmat you wont have rattles at all.
Thats about it.
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Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
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turboweege
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:28 pm
hey bedmojo did you ever get those stock shocks off. im still in the middle of workin on my custom suspension and wanted to know if you could shoot me some specs. let me knowluigi[email protected]
turboweege wrote:hey bedmojo did you ever get those stock shocks off. im still in the middle of workin on my custom suspension and wanted to know if you could shoot me some specs.
I still don't have everything ready to do my suspension work. I'm trying to track down a set of RS-R race springs. Not easy to do.
What kind of info do you need? As soon as I get the old struts off, I'll measure 'em for ya.
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turboweege
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:28 pm
BadMojo wrote:What kind of info do you need? As soon as I get the old struts off, I'll measure 'em for ya.
basically i want to get the stock shocks but shorter, so evrything i would need to sit down at work and measure what we got to match up. on the front id need to know the extended hieght, the diameter of the rod in 2 spots(where the mount sits up top and then the rest) and the cam hole are pretty universal i think. on the rears i need the overall height s diameters of the rod and the hole size on the bottom. thats it.thanks manluigi
FOAM??
Here is the reply that I got from Moto P 2 years ago.It should be very helpful, if you decided to go with FOAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>POST-1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) where to buy them? I also have SCC magazine where> people use similar foam to reinforce the Z. but as far> as I know the foam mentions in SCC is not good. Right?> I saw your post about 1 month ago on this issue.
You can contact Hastings Plastic Company in Santa Monica, CA310-829-3449. Ask for Hathane 2 part mix #1680-11.
> 2) Price? are they expensive? I am thinking about it> should be under $200 for the raw material for both> side sills and another beam close to back seats.> 3) Amount of FOAM required to do this job?
It's about $80 per 2 gallons (1 gallon each of the 2 part mix, soldtogether). It will take 3 sets (6gallons) to do your side sills and floorcross members beneath the seats.
> 4) Tools?> some bottles and funnel? Am I right? as I refer to the> SCC magazine.
Since it's fully liquid when pouring, you will need to close off all holesin the side sills and other areas by welding plates or simply using theinjection foam in it's tacky state to plug up these areas. You have about60 seconds after mixing the 2 parts before it starts to foam so I suggestworking with small quantities at a time till you are ready to pour the wholething for final fill. For this you will need lot's of disposable funnelsand large plastic cups. You mix it 50-50 and you have to mix it well tillit's cloudy...about 15 seconds. Only practice makes perfect so practice byfilling empty coke bottles and such to get the feel of how it reacts and howmuch time it takes to harden. I guarantee you'll make a mess everywhere soremoving most of the interior trim and carpeting is suggested where you arefilling. And lastly, it is flammable aven in it's dry state so all weldingmust be done before hand...ie, body repairs, spot welding, seam welding,roll-cage welding... Rubber gloves are a must too as it will stay on yourhand for more than a week if you manage to get it on yourself too...It's not a difficult task, albaeit a lot of preparation is involved so planahead and take your time...
The stuff really works, I can guarantee that... Just don't use the stuffSCC used...that's a sound proofing material that's similar but in much lessdense state and thus softer.Good luck...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>POST-2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You just have to be careful which foam to use. Some spray in variety for sealing purpose isn't the trick. You do have to get some stuff called Hathane 2 part mix in it's highest density. It's used more in the aircraft industry to stiffen wings and winglets as well as supporting frame structures. I tried filling a plastic bottle with this stuff and the result was more like light weight concrete. The foam seems to be a misleading term but it actually is a very high density foam when dry and is very sturdy.
The foam can fill the entire length of the member being filled and consequently, the result becomes stiffer overall than cages, which are strong inherently but puts stress on isolated attachment points where it meets the car. Cages are also inherently very heavy the more effective it gets, thus in autocross it has proven to slow down cars in corners. However, the demerit of foam is it offers little added protection against roll overs and is very difficult to repair after a major damage. It's also flammable so all welding must be done prior to injection and high heat locations must be avoided (i.e.. near exhaust housing)
There have been respectable tests and also the fact that many racing operations use it on race cars, convinced me.
I did do wonders for the AE86 just in the door sills and more incredibly, my friend's Mazda MX5 Roadster...where the door now sounds like a coupe than an open top convertible. He claims turn in and corner laden situations as well as transitions in slalom requires less steering input and corrections.
One note, Sport Compact Car (USA) magazine did a test using ITW Foamseal product on a Project 300Z and claimed effective. But, I tried it out myself prior to Hethane mix and the result was less than impressive. The foam crumbled easier than Styrofoam so it's definitely NOT the stuff to use. ITW stuff is just for making sound proofing at best. So be careful of what you select...Polyurethane foam comes in many densities...
Originally post by Moto P from Club4ag.com
GOOD LUCK!!
Here is the reply that I got from Moto P 2 years ago.It should be very helpful, if you decided to go with FOAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>POST-1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) where to buy them? I also have SCC magazine where> people use similar foam to reinforce the Z. but as far> as I know the foam mentions in SCC is not good. Right?> I saw your post about 1 month ago on this issue.
You can contact Hastings Plastic Company in Santa Monica, CA310-829-3449. Ask for Hathane 2 part mix #1680-11.
> 2) Price? are they expensive? I am thinking about it> should be under $200 for the raw material for both> side sills and another beam close to back seats.> 3) Amount of FOAM required to do this job?
It's about $80 per 2 gallons (1 gallon each of the 2 part mix, soldtogether). It will take 3 sets (6gallons) to do your side sills and floorcross members beneath the seats.
> 4) Tools?> some bottles and funnel? Am I right? as I refer to the> SCC magazine.
Since it's fully liquid when pouring, you will need to close off all holesin the side sills and other areas by welding plates or simply using theinjection foam in it's tacky state to plug up these areas. You have about60 seconds after mixing the 2 parts before it starts to foam so I suggestworking with small quantities at a time till you are ready to pour the wholething for final fill. For this you will need lot's of disposable funnelsand large plastic cups. You mix it 50-50 and you have to mix it well tillit's cloudy...about 15 seconds. Only practice makes perfect so practice byfilling empty coke bottles and such to get the feel of how it reacts and howmuch time it takes to harden. I guarantee you'll make a mess everywhere soremoving most of the interior trim and carpeting is suggested where you arefilling. And lastly, it is flammable aven in it's dry state so all weldingmust be done before hand...ie, body repairs, spot welding, seam welding,roll-cage welding... Rubber gloves are a must too as it will stay on yourhand for more than a week if you manage to get it on yourself too...It's not a difficult task, albaeit a lot of preparation is involved so planahead and take your time...
The stuff really works, I can guarantee that... Just don't use the stuffSCC used...that's a sound proofing material that's similar but in much lessdense state and thus softer.Good luck...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>POST-2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You just have to be careful which foam to use. Some spray in variety for sealing purpose isn't the trick. You do have to get some stuff called Hathane 2 part mix in it's highest density. It's used more in the aircraft industry to stiffen wings and winglets as well as supporting frame structures. I tried filling a plastic bottle with this stuff and the result was more like light weight concrete. The foam seems to be a misleading term but it actually is a very high density foam when dry and is very sturdy.
The foam can fill the entire length of the member being filled and consequently, the result becomes stiffer overall than cages, which are strong inherently but puts stress on isolated attachment points where it meets the car. Cages are also inherently very heavy the more effective it gets, thus in autocross it has proven to slow down cars in corners. However, the demerit of foam is it offers little added protection against roll overs and is very difficult to repair after a major damage. It's also flammable so all welding must be done prior to injection and high heat locations must be avoided (i.e.. near exhaust housing)
There have been respectable tests and also the fact that many racing operations use it on race cars, convinced me.
I did do wonders for the AE86 just in the door sills and more incredibly, my friend's Mazda MX5 Roadster...where the door now sounds like a coupe than an open top convertible. He claims turn in and corner laden situations as well as transitions in slalom requires less steering input and corrections.
One note, Sport Compact Car (USA) magazine did a test using ITW Foamseal product on a Project 300Z and claimed effective. But, I tried it out myself prior to Hethane mix and the result was less than impressive. The foam crumbled easier than Styrofoam so it's definitely NOT the stuff to use. ITW stuff is just for making sound proofing at best. So be careful of what you select...Polyurethane foam comes in many densities...
Originally post by Moto P from Club4ag.com
GOOD LUCK!!