How much over steer is too much?

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

I want more over steer for my car. I use it for auto-x and I want to be able to gas out of the turns sooner and be able to carry more corner speed. If I gas too early I just push the front wheels forward. I have a 2 way LSD and want to take full advantage of it's potential. I am going to leave the front sway bar stock and upgrade the end links. I also have 9.5 tires in the rear and 8.5 wide tires in the front.

Should I get a 27 mm, 24 mm, or adjustable rear sway bar? I want over steer but I don't want to be over doing it either? Does any one have any experience with these set ups?

[AZhitman]

Stiffen the rate of the rear bar, or loosen the front.

Upgrading the front end links (if it includes shorter links and harder bushings) will be counterproductive right now. Focus on stiffening up the rear.

You'll know how much is too much when you can't manage it - what you're REALLY shooting for is neutral handling, not oversteer.

[simmode1]

what you're REALLY shooting for is neutral handling, not oversteer.

Wouldn't the best idea be to get the same sized wheels and tires all around? Maybe like some 17x9.5 all around with 245 or 255 rubber?

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

I agree, however I'm on budget and got a good deal on those rims. It's either staggered setup or 7.5 rims. I need to replace my end links because they are so gone. I did replace the bushings however already but they are so bent.

What size rear sway bar?

[AZhitman]

Wouldn't the best idea be to get the same sized wheels and tires all around? Maybe like some 17x9.5 all around with 245 or 255 rubber?

No, he has plenty (WAY plenty) tire on the car.

You'll have to experiment with rear bar size. Start with something bigger than what you have, keeping the rubber bushings. If it's not enough, switch to poly bushings. If that's not enough, shorten the endlinks somewhat. If that's not enough, go bigger on the rear bar.

Small steps.

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

Thanks for the input. I have Battle Version in the back because my rear suspension was shot. I will go with an adjustable rear sway bar so I don't over or under shoot my goal. So keep the stock front and stiffen up the back.

[rbsileighty]

No, he has plenty (WAY plenty) tire on the car.

You'll have to experiment with rear bar size. Start with something bigger than what you have, keeping the rubber bushings. If it's not enough, switch to poly bushings. If that's not enough, shorten the endlinks somewhat. If that's not enough, go bigger on the rear bar.

Small steps.

I think he was talking about evening it out front to rear... and I would agree, if you're pushing through corners you need to even out the tire size... what tires are you running?

I assume you meant you had 8.5/9.5 rims sizes... for the $ you'd spend on misc equip you could buy some used tires for the front that match the rear...

Sell the whole set of tires and buy a "square" tire size F/R that would work on both rim sizes (like a 235 or 245)...

Get a tire that has more grip (softer compound) for the front...

Sell your 2 way and buy a 1.5/1way or helical lsd as 2 ways can signif exacerbate understeer... to help explain: http://www.limited-slip.com/ac....html...granted you say this is on tip-in, but are you saying this is occuring in a transition from off to on throttle... or is it happening only while on throttle and not off throttle/transition (just to be sure)?

I'm still running the stock Hicas sways and VLSD with Kei Office coils and strongly feel the car doesn't need more swaybar... granted I have a cage (probably out of your budget if you don't want to buy new wheels, but I STRONGLY recommend one in these old cars)... tire stag was 235/245 on a 9/9.5 17" wheel setup... moving to 245/265 9.5/10.5 18" wheel setup, but I don't have understeer issues to deal with...

Looks like you have almost the same car as I do as a base (mine's a 92 Hicas)... is yours a hatch? You'll spend A LOT less money overall if you take care of the car's basics to dial in the handling characteristics you want... some people like a bias towards understeer... others like a slight bias towards oversteer (like me)... I use to fight this with my old T2 team with our 350Z... luckily you're not sharing the car, that makes the setup very difficult

Have you tried left foot braking on corner exit? Be careful... you're on a autox course, but some of those are fast and a car can really come around if you're not careful... but this is a good way to get the car to rotate without modification if it's only in certain corners that you're having the understeer problem...

I think the #1 question to ask is this... what are your alignment and damp settings? Looks like you have a few parts that allow some adjustment... what are you running for toe especially? ...this could be killing your handling... I know the stag is making the problem worse, but alignment might be going well beyond that problem... and that's a very inexp fix... oh, and what settings are you running on your LSD (assuming it's adj)?

What class are you running in... this will dictate what mods you can run, but I'd strongly suggest a cage... esp if you have a hatch... night and day difference... you can see mine if you look at the pics I have in my signature

Hope this helps and I'd be happy to help more if you can give us some more information... good luck and enjoy the car!

Here is a link to help with alignment/tire pressure (saw your camber post but trying to keep this all in one place):

http://www.elephantracing.com/...p.htm

Re-reading the above link reminded me... spring rates... what spring rates do you have now? This could easily adj your handling issues and is might be less costly than new swaybars... I found SPL provides a ton of spring options for you:http://www.splparts.com/main4/...t.htm

I wouldn't buy sways until it's really something you NEED... like my DD... my daily is a 05 Audi S4 Avant 6MT... almost 4k lbs... even with KW V3 coilovers it needs some help in the "roll" department... but S13's can dial most issues out with coilovers and body stiffening, esp since you're starting with Hicas bars...

Oh, and with camber... don't forget caster is a way to chang dynamic camber (camber while turning) and not change your static neg camber if you're having tire heating issues... it's all a big balance you'll have to play with...

Dampers is also something to consider... here is the best article I could find to help tune these as well:http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racet....html

I said it before... but it is very important to match a damper to a spring rate... if you drastically change spring rates you might consider having your dampers revalved...

...again hope this helps and good luck this season!
Modified by rbsileighty at 7:42 PM 3/29/2010

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

Thanks for your reply. Here is my set up:

91 240SX SE hatch Super Hicas w/ the Hicas removed.SR20Cusco 2 way LSDKTS Coilover (1 - 16 adjustable) I use 8 in the front and 12 in the back)Tein Tension rodsBattle Version in rearBrand New OEM LCAsAlmost all other bushing have been replaced with Energy suspension.

Can you give some places and ideas on stiffening up a chassis? I very limited to fabricators where I live so I would have to order a premade roll cage which is not such a big deal. Beside roll cages what else can you do to stiffen up the chassis? I was told and rear & front strut bars are almost worthless.

[AZhitman]

FSTB is NOT worthless. Look at the one I have, in Fabricator's Marketplace (by rotorimp). It's tied into the firewall and amazingly effective.

Best stiffening mod I did was a set of Do-Luck Ladder Bars (F & R). They're no longer made, but it's not hard to find knockoffs (or make your own).

[AZ89two4Tsx]

Wouldn't the best idea be to get the same sized wheels and tires all around? Maybe like some 17x9.5 all around with 245 or 255 rubber?

245 on a 9.5 inch wheel?

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

THanks for the input I will look into those.

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

Right now I have 17" 7.5 all the way around with 2 diiferent sets of tires. I have a set of wheels 18"8.5 18"9.5 with no tires on them.

Does the Kazama Hicas removal replace the rear ladder bar?

I'm probally going to get adjustable end links all the way around, front ladder bar, have the bar welded in place for my rear stur bar, and get a front strut bar of some kind. Still need to find the grippiest tire I can get for about $100 a piece.
Modified by WestTxSR20Tuner at 7:49 AM 3/31/2010

[rbsileighty]

Thanks for your reply. Here is my set up:

91 240SX SE hatch Super Hicas w/ the Hicas removed.SR20Cusco 2 way LSDKTS Coilover (1 - 16 adjustable) I use 8 in the front and 12 in the back)Tein Tension rodsBattle Version in rearBrand New OEM LCAsAlmost all other bushing have been replaced with Energy suspension.

Can you give some places and ideas on stiffening up a chassis? I very limited to fabricators where I live so I would have to order a premade roll cage which is not such a big deal. Beside roll cages what else can you do to stiffen up the chassis? I was told and rear & front strut bars are almost worthless.

I would do the bolt in 6pt cage with a rear strut bar (my rear strut bar is built into my cage... I don't have a front strut bar and don't really feel like the car needs it)... go from there and if you still feel like it's understeering start playing with the alignment and diff tire widths/compounds front and rear... and you should be good to go!

[WestTxSR20Tuner]

Thanks, Are these roll cages any good? Not that I'm complaining but $180 seems too good to be true. I have not really priced cages before but I thought they were in the $500 range. Of course I got to still pay some guy to weld this thing in for another $100 or $200.

http://www.enjukuracing.com/ni....html