How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspension gurus needed!

[redsx13]

An obvious advantage of tie rod end spacers is to decrease ball joint wear on lowered cars, but i am confused about theory on how these spacers actually increase steering angle and reduce bump steer. After studying multiple suspension diagrams I am somewhat convinced that tie rod end spacers actually have a negative impact on steering geometry; increasing bump steer and doing nothing what so ever for steering angle. Someone please enlighten me.

[redsx13]

nobody?

[DrJuice164]

So the spacer goes between the rack and the inner tie rod. By pushing the "block" if you will on the inner tie rod away from the rack, you add more linier travel to the rack, thus creating a higher steering angle. As for the bump steer part, I really don't know.

I have the teins in my car now with the spacer, I really can't complain for the price, but I deffenetly want to get rid of the rods and spacers down the road and get z32 inners and spl outters.

[adrianfromthecastle]

are you talking about the spacer that goes between the tie rod end and the knuckle?

when you lower your car, your tie rods are at an angle, instead of being parallel to the ground (kind of like this -> \=/ ). By adding spacers, it would allow the tie rods to be parallel (like stock configuration) to the ground. As far as steering angle, its not necessarily increasing the steering angle, its just gaining back the steering angle that was lost when you lowered your car.

[redsx13]

are you talking about the spacer that goes between the tie rod end and the knuckle?

when you lower your car, your tie rods are at an angle, instead of being parallel to the ground (kind of like this -> \=/ ). By adding spacers, it would allow the tie rods to be parallel (like stock configuration) to the ground. As far as steering angle, its not necessarily increasing the steering angle, its just gaining back the steering angle that was lost when you lowered your car.

1.yes that picture is what im talking about

2. yes, tie rod spacers level out the tie rods and this decreases wear of the balljoints.

3.steering angle is not lost when lowering your car.

So the spacer goes between the rack and the inner tie rod. By pushing the "block" if you will on the inner tie rod away from the rack, you add more linier travel to the rack, thus creating a higher steering angle. As for the bump steer part, I really don't know.

I hope you know that putting spacers between the rack and the inner tierod will do nothing what-so-ever for steering angle...ever.

[DrJuice164]

I hope you know that putting spacers between the rack and the inner tierod will do nothing what-so-ever for steering angle...ever.

Going to have to disagree with you there. The spacer goes on the threads of the inner tie rod that thread into the rack. This pushes the ball joint on the inner tie rod further away from the rack, this allows for the rod to pivot at larger angles.

http://www.initialdrift.com.au...=5752

[Gabes13]

I've seen spacers for both inner and outer tie rods.

I really don't see how the inner spacers would increase angle. Maybe since the spacers are between the inners and the rack, the spacers would push out the tie rods however wide the spacers are, therefore enlonging the steering jack and I guess increasing angle. This is what I thought you originally were asking.

The spacers that go on the outter tie rod ends, what Adrian showed, is actually the understanding of simple geometery.

A car's suspension was engineered to be compatible with it's stock ride height. If you look at a car with untampered ride height, you'll see that the tie rods are close to parallel to the steering rack, the lower control arm, the ball joints and the ground. We'll call that position "A". When you lower the car, the tie rods point upward and become adjacent to all those, Position "B". Given that you have stock lower control arms (non adjustable), position "B" will have a smaller horizontal track than position "A". No matter if the tie rod's length is adjusted to compensate for toe changes, it will never be the same length as position "A", therefore it will never reach the same steering angles as position "A" w/o adding spacers... or raising your car.



...if that makes sense.


Modified by pandapants at 10:40 PM 6/10/2009

[redsx13]

The tie rods do become shorter, yes. but really think about it. Shorter tie-rods would result in what? toe-out. Which is a result of lowering your car (common fact). now, in order to fix the toe-out, an alignment shop will lengthen your tie rods (via oem adjustment). This in turn will solve the problem you described in your diagram, thus no steering angle will be lost.

Now, i have a diagram for you. This involves the front suspension "triangle". It proves that outer tie rod end spacers create bump steer because they alter your suspension geometry.

[Gabes13]

you're missing the point. yeah you'll have bad toe, but even when corrected, it will still be shorter bc the lca. The Lca would still be horizontally shorter than stock when lowered. Toe has nothing to do with it.
Modified by pandapants at 11:12 PM 6/10/2009

[redsx13]

you're missing the point. yeah you'll have bad toe, but even when corrected, it will still be shorter bc the lca. The Lca would still be horizontally shorter than stock when lowered. Toe has nothing to do with it.

Modified by pandapants at 11:12 PM 6/10/2009

Im sorry, but i dont think your right. Your missing something, toe has everything to do with it.

on a different note, anyone that has a spacer between their steering rack and inner tie rod is a f***ing retard. (dont understand? Think of the wheel thats being pushed out, it does have more angle because of the spacer, but now think of the wheel that being pulled, it has less angle. All you did was toe-in your front wheels, haha. )

Modified by redsx13 at 11:32 PM 6/10/2009
Modified by redsx13 at 11:34 PM 6/10/2009

[redsx13]

It doesn't matter what the length of the tie rod is, as long as the distance between the tie-rod mounting point on the steering rack, and the tie-rod mounting point on the steering knuckle are the same; and they are.

Below is a diagram depicting a simplified version of the front steering components on a traditional rack-and-pinion automobile.



**note: This diagram implies that the outer tie-rod end spacers/ aftermarket tie-rod ends have no effect on steering angle, it does not state nor prove that the above mentioned parts create bump steer. Bump Steer is a condition dependant on suspension movement and its effect on the relation of the tie-rod in accordance to various other suspension parts. This is including, but not limited to: the lower control arm, upper control arm, and front dampener acting as a pivot-point in placement of an upper control arm (McPherson strut type).**
Modified by redsx13 at 1:31 AM 6/11/2009

[Gabes13]

you're not getting it, toe has nothing to do with it. Just bc the tie rod is adjustable, doesn't mean the lca is, and that's what affects the suspensions geometry. The ball joints and knuckles are fixed to the lower control arm, so if the lower control arm is pointing upwards, it will obviously be shorter horizontally than an lca in the stock position.

Think of it as a clock. Lets pretend that the minuet hand and hour hand were indeed the same length. One is pointing to 9 (stock) and the other 10 (lowered). Which is closer to the left side of the clock? The one pointing to 9 obviously.

I understand what you're saying about adjusting the tie rod, but you can't adjust it to the length you're saying. The tie rod end that connects to the knuckle, and the ball joint on the lca have to be perpendicular to the ground in order to have 0 toe.

since the lca is not adjustable and at a fixed length, the ball joint on a lowered car will be closer to the chassis than lets say, a stock one. If you were to adjust the tie rod to the length you're saying to compensate for the difference in length, you would simply place the tie rod end past the ball joint resulting in really bad toe in.

As for your diagram, it's just that.... A diagram. It doesn't show any alignment specs or how much the car is initially lowered or even the chassis it's for. It's good info, but is only good for reference.

edit: And if you want the tie rod to pass line 1, go lower.

[redsx13]

you're not getting it, toe has nothing to do with it. Just bc the tie rod is adjustable, doesn't mean the lca is, and that's what affects the suspensions geometry. The ball joints and knuckles are fixed to the lower control arm, so if the lower control arm is pointing upwards, it will obviously be shorter horizontally than an lca in the stock position.

Think of it as a clock. Lets pretend that the minuet hand and hour hand were indeed the same length. One is pointing to 9 (stock) and the other 10 (lowered). Which is closer to the left side of the clock? The one pointing to 9 obviously.

I understand what you're saying about adjusting the tie rod, but you can't adjust it to the length you're saying. The tie rod end that connects to the knuckle, and the ball joint on the lca have to be perpendicular to the ground in order to have 0 toe.

since the lca is not adjustable and at a fixed length, the ball joint on a lowered car will be closer to the chassis than lets say, a stock one. If you were to adjust the tie rod to the length you're saying to compensate for the difference in length, you would simply place the tie rod end past the ball joint resulting in really bad toe in.

As for your diagram, it's just that.... A diagram. It doesn't show any alignment specs or how much the car is initially lowered or even the chassis it's for. It's good info, but is only good for reference.

edit: And if you want the tie rod to pass line 1, go lower.

I get what your saying, but you must take into consideration the movement of the steering knuckle and ball-joint mounting point in relation to the inner tie rod mounting point. here...

[Gabes13]

you got me.

All I can say now is that it would prolong the life of the ball joint bc the tie rod is know parallel to the knuckle movement (left and right instead of left and right at an angle).

I guess the suspension needs more work instead of adjustable tension rods to correct steering i.e. s14/adj. lca, larger ball joints and or modified knuckles.

Other than that, you got me stumped.

[redsx13]

I guess the suspension needs more work instead of adjustable tension rods to correct steering i.e. s14/adj. lca, larger ball joints and or modified knuckles.

+1, check these out http://www.gtfactory.jp/cms/page.php?15

The only thing that worries me is that it F's up the steering geometry, but other than that they are pretty cool.(a bit pricey though)
Modified by redsx13 at 11:14 AM 6/15/2009