How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspension gurus needed!

Post by **redsx13** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:34 am

An obvious advantage of tie rod end spacers is to decrease ball joint wear on lowered cars, but i am confused about theory on how these spacers actually increase steering angle and reduce bump steer. After studying multiple suspension diagrams I am somewhat convinced that tie rod end spacers actually have a negative impact on steering geometry; increasing bump steer and doing nothing what so ever for steering angle. Someone please enlighten me.

Post by **redsx13** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:28 pm

nobody?

Post by **Cone Junky** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:10 pm

Since there are no responses, I'll give my theory.

I believe the spacers are used between the tie rods and the rack. I think that the steering stops are built into the tie rods, so the spacers allow the rack to move further then factory by spacing those stops.

I have not seen or used these, but I had the same question when I first heard of them. It's surprising that with all these "drifters" on here, no one has chimed in.

Post by **liquid_cool** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:45 pm

sorry i havent got to this post sooner..it was waayy down low on the totem man..as for the premiss of the post..its a good one..one worth discussing as few really know about suspention it seems...from what i understand..they use the spacer to correct the angles in geomitry that lowering a car does to the suspention..kinda gets it back to or close to the factory angles..as far as bump steer..im not shure myself..as i try to keep a close to factory ridehight so that i can use the suspentions travell to shift wieght and initiate a drift/fient...some preferd the slammed style with that installd to correct there issue..hopefully we can get some more discussion on this as my know how is limited on this subject.

Post by **redsx13** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:31 pm

hay i know why no one knows... because they don't! Its just a way for suspension companies to make money, there is no engineering behind them.

or at least that's what i think. arguments?

Post by **redsx13** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:15 pm

bump #2

Post by **Wc240** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:03 pm

i was also lookin into this becouse personally, i think they do not make sense and heres why:you put a spacer in and it pushes the tie rod farther out(kinda the whole idea right) that would mess up your toe MASSIVELY. so, to correct your toe, you would do it just like everything else, adjust your tie rod end to pull the toe back in. after doing this, you have just affectively put more of the tierod in the tierod end. but the length of the tierod has been corrected as in no change from factory.that is how i see it. not saying that im right, just that thats the way to logically look at it. if i am wrong, i would really like to hear where and why i am. always wanting to learn more, but, i dont want to hear "they work cuz thats what the japanese do so its gotta work cuz its jdm tyte."

Post by **redsx13** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:59 pm

Wc240 wrote:i was also lookin into this becouse personally, i think they do not make sense and heres why:you put a spacer in and it pushes the tie rod farther out(kinda the whole idea right) that would mess up your toe MASSIVELY. so, to correct your toe, you would do it just like everything else, adjust your tie rod end to pull the toe back in. after doing this, you have just affectively put more of the tierod in the tierod end. but the length of the tierod has been corrected as in no change from factory.that is how i see it. not saying that im right, just that thats the way to logically look at it. if i am wrong, i would really like to hear where and why i am. always wanting to learn more, but, i dont want to hear "they work cuz thats what the japanese do so its gotta work cuz its jdm tyte."

Yep, i would also like to hear a counter argument, because i also believe they do NOTHING! and i have multiple diagrams to back me up.

Post by **romero87** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:48 pm

i beg the differ. i have a s14 and i trashed my suspension one time drunk drifting with an open diff and it was wet.... bad mixture... well i replaced my tie rod with tien tod rods and i put the spacer. The spacer allows your tie rods to actually extend farther out when the wheel is turned when your extends your tie rod to turn your wheel. I work in a body shop and a buddy of mine has an s14 and we parked them side by side and turned the wheels the same way. On my s14 with the spacers the wheel was turned more than his.... I also make a u turn right by my work. and i can turn into the first lane. when before i had the spacer. the turning radius of the car is noticably different and its f***ing awesome....

if its bad for my suspension i couldn't tell you yet. I replaced the tie rods, springs, shock/struts. I never had it aligned and rainy day bald tire car slammed into a curb.. So now i decided to go all out and get it aligned. Tien type s springs, tokico shocks/struts.. god speed fully adj lower control arms front and rear, god speed adj pillow tension arms, nismo power brace, god speed sway bars , god speed camber and toe arms.Im pretty excited. I have already done all the work on the front. The back ive been waiting for new subframe bushings so i can replace those while i'll have the rear crossmember... So i will definately keep ppl posted on how this supsension setup rides and ect....

Post by **Wc240** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:44 pm

now are you talking about the spacers on the tierod end, or the ones that you put on the inner tie rod(inside the rack)? are you using them again on your new setup and if you are, id like to see your specs when you do

Post by **romero87** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:39 am

the spacers that go on the inner tie rod in between tie rod and the rack. Yes i am going to be using them on my new setup. Ill post my specs when i get it aligned. It should be within the next 2 weeks depeneding on how soon i get the subframe bushings that are like almost impossible to find. but i found some on ebay so hopefully they will work.....

Post by **creepinonthecomeup** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:58 pm

Tie rod spacers keep the end of your inner tie rod farther away from the rack . The inner tie rod end is too big to fit in the rack but the spacers are the same size as as the rack end so they will slide through, basically extending your rack ends giving you more angle.

Kinda confusing, but if you read enough times it makes sense , lol

Post by **redsx13** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:53 pm

romero87 wrote:i beg the differ. i have a s14 and i trashed my suspension one time drunk drifting with an open diff and it was wet.... bad mixture... well i replaced my tie rod with tien tod rods and i put the spacer. The spacer allows your tie rods to actually extend farther out when the wheel is turned when your extends your tie rod to turn your wheel. I work in a body shop and a buddy of mine has an s14 and we parked them side by side and turned the wheels the same way. On my s14 with the spacers the wheel was turned more than his.... I also make a u turn right by my work. and i can turn into the first lane. when before i had the spacer. the turning radius of the car is noticably different and its f***ing awesome....

I'm sorry to disappoint you but those spacers did nothing. You don't have more angle, dont waste your time.

Post by **Wc240** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:13 pm

creepinonthecomeup wrote: Tie rod spacers keep the end of your inner tie rod farther away from the rack . The inner tie rod end is too big to fit in the rack but the spacers are the same size as as the rack end so they will slide through, basically extending your rack ends giving you more angle.

Kinda confusing, but if you read enough times it makes sense , lol

honestly, your post doesnt even make sense. if the inner tie rod is too big to fit in the rack, how are they in there in the first place extending the "rack ends" i guess would be interpreted as extending the tie rods, wich would send your toe auto wack, unless you adjusted for it with the outer tie rod end, wich effectively cancelled out what you did with the spacer.we already went over this above.

Post by **redsx13** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:11 am

There are 2 ways to think of the inner tie-rod spacers, and why they dont work.

#1With spacers installed and your wheels at full-lock in one direction, first think of the wheel thats being pushed out farther by the extended tie rod (the outer wheel). It does indeed have more angle. But now think of the wheel being pulled in by an extended tie rod (the inner wheel). It has less angle, because the tie-rod is not pulling it as far.What does this mean? your car is now out of alignment.

#2

Wc240 wrote:extending the "rack ends" i guess would be interpreted as extending the tie rods, wich would send your toe auto wack, unless you adjusted for it with the outer tie rod end, wich effectively cancelled out what you did with the spacer.we already went over this above.

Post by **romero87** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:49 pm

ok.... well then how do you explain after i installed the inner tie rod spacers the car is capable of making sharper u turns than b4 i installed the spacers?

Post by **fireslave** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:45 am

if you are talking about the spacers that go between the rack and the inner tie rod, they give more angle because on the stock rack, the tie rod end encounters a flat surface on the end of the steering rack, and movement stops. The spacer is small enough that it doesnt hit this flat surface, but again, the tie rod end does.

Now, since the end-to-end of the rack is longer, you need to shorten your tie rods to get the alignment right. When you turn to full lock, your wheel is now turned further, even though the inner tie rod on the inside wheel still hits the same surface. this is because your tie rod is shorter. This affects bump steer because a shorter tie rod goes through more angle change as the suspension travels.

Now, there is another type of spacer that goes on the hub side. this moves the tie rod spherical joint downwards, changing the angle of the tie rod, and again, affecting bumpsteer.

hope this helps

Post by **Wc240** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:26 pm

thank you. ill still have to look into this for myself but that does actually make sense.i knew the outer ones actually did something and how.still tryin to look for pics for this. but thanks for a good explanation

Post by **Ichiban-1** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:03 pm

Try looking at this article and maybe it will clear up things for you. http://www.nicoclub.com/articles.php?id=158892

Post by **fireslave** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:08 am

heres a pic i found of the outer spacers I was talking about

if the tie rod is parallell to the Lower control arm, and both are the same length joint-to-joint, that means zero bumpsteer.

I dont actually know how it is on the 240sx... but it looks like the lower control arm is longer. This means that the wheel would toe-out as it moves above or below the horizontal position (assuming the tierod and LCA are pallell)

To correct for the toe out when you hit a bump, I think you would want to add spacers on the outside to move the pivot point down... its not going to come out perfect though, and as far as what the ideal set up is in practice, I have no idea...

I've been thinking about this because im switching from s13 LCAs to s14LCAs... it would seem to me that longer arms mean less bumpsteer, because a 2 inch length difference, for example, is a smaller percent if the arms are longer.... then I realized it was probably too tiny of a difference to matter, and I should be more concerned with the effects of lowering the car than anything else...

Post by **PooPooButter323** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:36 am

im confused as s***... more pictures of the spacers and the knuckles

Post by **Wc240** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:34 pm

i understand the OUTER SPACERS, we were talkin bout the inner

Post by **black240sx96** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:13 pm

funny thing about this post i think i just may have come across a problem and i was looking to see if anyone had the solution but i guess not since i didnt find any. i have CS tie rods and tie rod ends which cause more of a "steering angle" which it does because when im sliding i end up hitting the (i guess called steering stops) which i know its hitting because its making clear markings on them (pant chip and a nice dent) i guess my question is what would or could happen if they were cut off ?? could something brake dramatically or wheel fly off ?? heres a picture to show what i am talking about by the "stops"

Post by **fireslave** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:38 am

I didnt even know there were stops...

I cant really think of a function for them, since the rack will only go so far anyways, unless it is to keep extreme jolting forces from damaging the rack if you hit a curb or nail a pothole while near full lock or something...

anything that might jerk your steering wheel around a bit could cause this, the steering rack will usually just move the wheel in your hands and absorb the impact, unless its at the end of its travel where these things might come in to play...

Does it appear to be stopping it in both directions, or just in one direction per side?

Post by **black240sx96** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:58 am

funny you should ask because it shows signs that it hits both sides but when i turn the steering wheel to the left it seems do go more just by a little bit. ive also notice that when i turn the steering wheel all the way to the right it will stop with no problem but when i turn it to the left it seems like it stops but not like the other way it kinda studders and the power steering pump studders/stops and goes...really odd and im sure if my power steering pump was going bad it would do it on both sides not just one right ???

Post by **romero87** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:43 pm

my opinion is u can cut them off, but it may weaken your control arms. they are structure and add some strength to the weak factory control arms. But your wheel wouldn't fall off.

Post by **fireslave** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:52 am

i wouldnt think they add any strength to the control arms....

you're probably safe to cut them off, though. the steering rack itself should prevent things from going too far.

however, if you could just grind them down a bit to where they just barely touched, i think that would be ideal. might save the rack and tie rods a little side-load strain when you hit a bump at full opposite lock... because think about it... normally the wheel will just move in your hand and absorb the shock, but if its at the end of the racks travel, all that force goes right down the tie rods and to the rack... and s13s especially are known for weak tie-rods.

but again, this may be paranioa and you'd probly be fine...

Post by **drifter92** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:09 pm

ok, check this out.

with aftermarket inner tie rods with spacers and aftermarket out tie rods, you can toe your front wheels out without maxing out your OEM tie rods because the spacer lets more of the inner tie rod be inside the outer tie rod which gives you greater toe out adjustability. When you toe the front wheels out, at max steering lock, the wheel on the important side of a drift will have more angle than stock depending on how much toe out you have. The other wheel will be a little more straight than before which helps keep the car stable.

If you have toe out in the front, and are sliding the rear out to the right countersteering right, your right front will be extreme angle and thats where your weight is transferred to. Your left front will be that much less angle which gives you stability and gives you a more consistent angle of a drift.

Zero Toe = ! ! <--FRONT WHEELSToe In = / \ <--Drrrr CarToe Out = \ / <-- More Countersteer angle

Hope This Helps!
Modified by drifter92 at 5:15 PM 9/9/2009

Post by **chris burnett** » Wed May 18, 2011 2:16 am

i know this is from a while ago but i came accross it and it made me lol that much i felt the need to register and explain. it also amuses me when people explain something when they have no idea what they are talking about.

anyway il try and keep this simple, so i have attached a simple picture to help explain. from what ive read everyone is failing to understand that the spacer is not extending the tie rod it is extending the rack length, understand that and you can basically see how this works.

toe in and toe out doesnt even come into things as we will assume toe is 0

assume the rack is behind (to the rear) of the center of the wheel and imagine turning left (so the rack will move to the right)

in the picture i have a simple rack in red,
the rack is within a casing which is the black outline (number 3)
the tie rod is thick black
tein spacer is blue (number 2)

when the spacer is not fitted
position marked 1 is actually at position 2
when 1 hits 3 the movement of the rack is stoped and that is the max travel

now when you add the spacer you have the extra distance that the rack can travel into the rack casing which in turn allows the tie rod to travel further at both right and left sides

i think thats as simple as i can make it, and some may say that its only a small amount and they would be right but when you consider the mounting (pivot) points of the wheel hub and tie rod end the small amount makes a considerable difference in steering angle

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Post by **Gabes13** » Sun May 22, 2011 4:31 pm

http://youtu.be/KP5zzyAmXi0

How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspension gurus needed!

How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspension gurus needed!

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspen ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspen ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspen ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (liquid_cool)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (Wc240)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (romero87)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (Wc240)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (romero87)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (romero87)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (creepinonthecomeup)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (Wc240)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steer ... (redsx13)

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Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspen ... (redsx13)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase steering angle?? suspen ... (fireslave)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase s ... (PooPooButter323)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase s ... (Wc240)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase s ... (black240sx96)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase s ... (fireslave)

Re: How do tie rod end spacers increase s ... (black240sx96)

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