Horrible understeer (96 240sx)

[14.5drift]

Well i already made a thread about this earlier, but it was in the wrong forum

oops :icesangel I didn't see this place

Here is a LINK to a thread I made on another board so I dont have to type it up all ove again...

Whuddya guys think?

[Dori Dori]

Sorry to say, but it sounds like driver error.

You're ideas of putting stiffer springs in the rear would do nothing but give you an oversteer machine...bad.

The best advice I can give would be to take some driving lessons and you'll learn how to shift weight properly to induce oversteer.

[14.5drift]

How about youre car?

When you pull up to a stop (maybe in a parking lot, at a light, or where ever you want) you turn the wheel and accelerate, what gives? Do your front tires plow? Or do you eventually start doing doughnuts?

Now with my car, I can drive pretty straight with the wheels all the wat turned.

Not a actual straight line, but just trying to give you an idea of how bad I am talking about.

I have a mitsubishi eclipse awd, and it when I do a u turn and floor it it starts to turn, then all four wheels slide sideways

The key here is my front wheels on the 240 are not even getting me side ways, the wheels turn but the car does not.

I dont want to give out the wrong idea, it does daily driving just fine, but when it performs it is a thin line between completing your turn, and the front tires giving up and driving in a straight line.

it really gives no signs

It's like your turning, your turning, woops now your going straight.

That is totally unlike any other car ive ever driven on the planet, accept for my truck.

Ive seen 240's on the track in videos, ive seen how they work, they work like normal cars, my car is working abnormal.

It is not driver error, i can drive damn it!!!!Been driving like a bastard since I was 13, now i am very good at it, accept now i only drive at night when no one is on the streets and in very remote areas for safety, rather than using my local neighborhood for an autocross. Wich I did for years, fortunatly no one ever got hurt.

Any way, if some one tries to pull that driver error crap, they better be in the area so that i can let you drive the thing and then I can laugh at you and tell you to take a damn driving class!!!!! lol

WooooW, this is a long freakin post!!! lol

I'm sorry !! :pface

I just can't stop ranting, lol

there all done. :icesangel

:help

[Dori Dori]

Well, if you lived anywhere near me, I'd happily drive your car.

Since you are so sure it's not driver error, tell me a few things.

1. What kind of tires are you using? Age? Wear? psi?2. What do you have in the trunk? Happen to have a big system, battery, ect. back there?3. Have you driven any other bone stock suspension s14's? If so, what did they do differently (to you).

EDIT:You asked about my car. It's setup to understeer slightly...I'm trying to get her as neutral as possible, but having been spending enough time with her recently.

[14.5drift]

My tires are khumo ecsta, fronts are good, rears are bad (too many brake stands) all of wich are about 2 years old and set to 33psi

this is my second 240, it was different than this one. The old one was the same year in worse condition, it did not handle as good as the new one (it was on stock tires) but it was more balanced. It too suffered from understeer, but in a predictable way like most cars do. My eclipse understeers, but the car will let me know what is going on through body rolls and tire squeel. The 240 ussually does the same, but under some circumstances gives little signs and will act irationally.

There is nothing in the trunk that wasn't there (spare, jack, lug wrench)

A little while back I did some weight reductions in the front of the car. I Put a carbon fiber hood, removed the 5 mph bumber, and removed the fog lights when I did the s15 front conversion., and I have all the wires ready to put the battery in the trunk. Other than that she's still stock.

[Dori Dori]

Does the car have a front swaybar? Are either of the endlinks damaged or broken? Too bad I can't drive it....

[skydragoness]

S14's are better balanced than the S13, but in no way immune to understeer. GreenMachine97 was right on: stock suspension+ no lsd+no driver skill= no drift.

Almost all RWD cars are set up for understeer, it's more predictable for the common driver to handle. For the love of god don't go out trying to drift with a stock suspension. Also try autocrossing, you learn a lot about your car's characteristics that way, and how much the stock suspension hinders the car's turning ability.

[Dori Dori]

I'm thinking the loss of front end weight (which would also cause the front to lift up and add positive camber) has something to do with your problems. An adjustable coilover, a good corner balancing job, and alignment should cure your problems.

[cdlong]

I'm thinking the loss of front end weight (which would also cause the front to lift up and add positive camber) has something to do with your problems. An adjustable coilover, a good corner balancing job, and alignment should cure your problems.

taking 50 some pounds off the front wont change anything enough to make that kind of difference. the front suspension doesn't go through that much camber change anyway.

jack your car up and start poking around, there may be some bad bushings or worn ball joints. also, bald tires generally grip better than new ones, more contact patch and no tread squirm. different tires have different characteristics and each end of the car has different needs. it isn't impossible that the tires you have up front just don't grip well around corners. what exactly is a brake stand anyway, just a brake assisted burnout?

i read through both threads and virtually everyone said something about driving skill, i think you need to take the hint. you may think you are a good driver but the way you described your technique makes me (and everyone else) think otherwise. big inputs in steering and gas will always give you understeer.

[Dori Dori]

taking 50 some pounds off the front wont change anything enough to make that kind of difference. the front suspension doesn't go through that much camber change anyway.

First of all, I never said it would make 'that much of a difference'. I only said it might have something to do with it...especially since the bumper beam was removed (and it sits in the nose of the car). Second of all, if the car lifted, the camber changed. How much is unknown. Again, I'm just throwing around logical explanations that could be contributing to his car's unusual behavior.

jack your car up and start poking around, there may be some bad bushings or worn ball joints. also, bald tires generally grip better than new ones, more contact patch and no tread squirm. different tires have different characteristics and each end of the car has different needs. it isn't impossible that the tires you have up front just don't grip well around corners. what exactly is a brake stand anyway, just a brake assisted burnout? .

Don't tell me you use bald street tires for better grip. Please realize that the rubber compound has changed to a much less grippy rubber once your tires become bald. Also, the sidewalls would have lost much of their strength after xxxxx amount of miles.

[Nismo_Freak]

Worn stock suspension is your problem. That and the probable worn bushings. Nearly all cars from the factory are tuned for understeer because it is easier for someone that has little experience to control.

[cdlong]

Don't tell me you use bald street tires for better grip. Please realize that the rubber compound has changed to a much less grippy rubber once your tires become bald. Also, the sidewalls would have lost much of their strength after xxxxx amount of miles.

of course i don't, cause they suck when there is any water on the road. most tires have the same compound all of the way through the tread blocks (the ones that don't often have a stickier compound underneath), the carcass should have something different, but i doubt he's down to the threads. if he is doing burnouts all day there aren't many miles on the sidewalls and dryrot hasn't set in. basically he's got shaved tires in the rear and full depth ones in the front. either way, i doubt its the heart of the issue.

i still think this guy just needs to learn how to drive. you can't just crank the wheel and floor it and expect the front tires to hook up. the only reason your dsm didn't plow like a sled is because the front wheels are driven. with the wheels cranked a lot of the power was pushing the front end to the side. in a 240 all of the power is pushing the car straight ahead.

do us a favor and test the car out a little. find a big long curve (like a loop on/off ramp) and take it pretty fast. don't accelerate or decelerate, just keep the speed constant with light throttle. the car should start to push a little when you give it more gas and the front end should tuck in when you let off the throttle. if that's what it does, your car is fine, sign up for a performance driving school. if it always pushes hardcore in that situation no matter what you do, then you have a problem.

[14.5drift]

The understeer was there before the front end change, so that had nothing to do with it.

I have been pulling and shifting weight though to sort of retune the balance of the car, the battery will be the biggie. Once the battery and the 10 inch are in the rear, I made some calculations and it should but the car ataround 47/53 f/r.

The car will be getting a ground control/koni treatment eventually.

Back to driver skill, umm, Id dont mean to sound arogant :icesangel but it rocks in every other car i drive, does it just fall out the window in my 240sx? I dont think so. The car is just acting funny. The Thing that pisses me off is I am a canyon runner, and when you start going through the really quick rythem sections some times it is necassary to be giving quick (but smooth) inputs. This car just can't hang. I read other peoples comments about how tossible this car is and blah blah blahhh, but my front end seems like a rock. Like it is just too heavy.

As far as it not being "tossable" for me the car is great, I can take the long freeway banks much faster than my elipse gsx, and the tight twisties for that matter, but still the eclipse gives me some feedback. I can't trust the 240 cause some times it has a mind of it's own.

I will check the front sways, and look for some shawdy bushings later today

[14.5drift]

I read up to the part about the "drift s15 front end" and stopped. threads that start out like that are never worth reading.

Got in a fenderbender and insurance paid for the swap :ylsuper

[cdlong]

the eclipse gives me some feedback. I can't trust the 240 cause some times it has a mind of it's own.

that has a lot to do with the tires, try something with a more linear breakaway.

[14.5drift]

Well? It's got s15 lights, hood, and fenders with a drift front bumber

Why are you so sarcastic. If you dont like some ones car you are just rude to them on the internet?

Either way, email me if you want to chat, I dont want to get off topic in this thread.

[14.5drift]

that has a lot to do with the tires, try something with a more linear breakaway.

But wouldn't the back tires have this problem too?

[cdlong]

But wouldn't the back tires have this problem too?

yes, but it wouldn't be as noticable in the back.

[Nismo_Freak]

Do you mean DRFT...as in the body kit company owned by cwest?

DRIFT is the style of the bumper he is refering to... the "kits" online have the "Drift" style bumpers as one of the choices.

Stop nagging his damn car and answer his question... the front end on his car has no bearing what-so-ever on his ill handling 240.

[nab911]

43/57 seems a little fuct to me... the rear shouldnt outweight the front...what you need is a good fresh set of tires, take that thing in a parking lot and play. Adapt to the way it handles, dont make it adapt to the way you handle... caus ur girl said u dont handle to well

[Nismo_Freak]

This is why you are understeering:

1. You have worn tires that have poor grip to begin with.

2. You have stock suspension that has excessive body roll which leads to a poor grip situation because the bald tires are now loaded with alot of weight along with the change in suspension geometry which lessens the tires contact patch further.

3. Your bushings are worn so you have increased deflection, which leads to an even worse suspension geometry.

Solution:

1. Better tires (suggest Falken Azenis Sports or Kumho MX - Tirerack.com)2. Better suspension (take a look at http://www.splparts.com)

If you have any questions about any of our products please email me at [email protected]

[Dori Dori]

DRIFT is the style of the bumper he is refering to... the "kits" online have the "Drift" style bumpers as one of the choices.

Stop nagging his damn car and answer his question... the front end on his car has no bearing what-so-ever on his ill handling 240.

:thumbd

I wasn't nagging anyone. I got confused so I asked a question trying to clear things up. One of the 'other' moderators was the one who 'nagged' him anyway. Confront him or delete his post. To be honest, I had no clue what bumper 14.5drift was talking about and was curious if he did happen to have a DRFT bumper...if that were the case, I was going to ask to see pictures because I happen to like it. :rolleyes

[skydragoness]

This is why you are understeering:

1. You have worn tires that have poor grip to begin with.

2. You have stock suspension that has excessive body roll which leads to a poor grip situation because the bald tires are now loaded with alot of weight along with the change in suspension geometry which lessens the tires contact patch further.

3. Your bushings are worn so you have increased deflection, which leads to an even worse suspension geometry.

Solution:

1. Better tires (suggest Falken Azenis Sports or Kumho MX - Tirerack.com)2. Better suspension (take a look at http://www.splparts.com)

If you have any questions about any of our products please email me at [email protected]

that was it in a nutshell, and what everyone else was trying to explain. Thanks Nismo

[Nismo_Freak]

that was it in a nutshell, and what everyone else was trying to explain. Thanks Nismo

[Nismo_Freak]

:thumbd

I wasn't nagging anyone. I got confused so I asked a question trying to clear things up. One of the 'other' moderators was the one who 'nagged' him anyway. Confront him or delete his post. To be honest, I had no clue what bumper 14.5drift was talking about and was curious if he did happen to have a DRFT bumper...if that were the case, I was going to ask to see pictures because I happen to like it. :rolleyes

I wasn't refering to you but Bud. I already deleted his posts.

Don't tell me what to do either.

[Dori Dori]

I wasn't refering to you but Bud. I already deleted his posts.

You quoted me and deleted my post. I'm sure you could understand...my confusion?:rolleyes

[14.5drift]

43/57 seems a little fuct to me... the rear shouldnt outweight the front...what you need is a good fresh set of tires, take that thing in a parking lot and play. Adapt to the way it handles, dont make it adapt to the way you handle... caus ur girl said u dont handle to well

it's 47/53, and try telling that to teh makers of ferrari, porche, lamborghini, lotus :icesangel

[14.5drift]

This is why you are understeering:

1. You have worn tires that have poor grip to begin with.

The fronts had 60 percect life left on em

2. You have stock suspension that has excessive body roll which leads to a poor grip situation because the bald tires are now loaded with alot of weight along with the change in suspension geometry which lessens the tires contact patch further.

I didn't think that was how independant suspension worked, but in comparison to my eclipse gsx, the body roll is much less and suspension/ride is much firmer.

The car is a 96 but only has 60k original miles on it, same with my eclipse

3. Your bushings are worn so you have increased deflection, which leads to an even worse suspension geometry.

I will definatly look into the bushings how can you tell the difference between a good and a bad bushing? Should it be easy to distinguish?

Solution:

1. Better tires (suggest Falken Azenis Sports or Kumho MX - Tirerack.com)2. Better suspension (take a look at http://www.splparts.com)

If you have any questions about any of our products please email me at [email protected]

Well I went ahead and changed out the tires any way. I couldn't afford any thing nice so I got your basic all seasons They seem to grip decent though.

Well see how she does on the new rubbers in the next few days and see if it wasn't just the tires.

[Nismo_Freak]

You quoted me and deleted my post. I'm sure you could understand...my confusion?:rolleyes

When you look at the mod menu to delete posts it just has the first few words. I didn't mean to delete your post, it just happened.

Besides, the first paragraph I wrote was to you ... notice how I explained what you had asked?

The 2nd paragraph was to Bud.

Less confused now?

[Nismo_Freak]

The fronts had 60 percect life left on em

But they could have been heat cycled alot (meaning lots of hard driving) which would make them get harder and harder. With a tire that has such a high treadlife comparitively to softer ultra performance tires it's easy to run into this problem.

I didn't think that was how independant suspension worked, but in comparison to my eclipse gsx, the body roll is much less and suspension/ride is much firmer.

Not really understanding this, but I'll give it a shot.

Independent suspension is superior in a few aspects. The first being the definition of independent, each corner operates independently of the other. However things like sway bars actually lessen the "independent-ness" of the suspension but thats another day's lesson. The car will roll no matter what, it's physics. When it does it rolls onto the outer suspension which causes it to compress and load. There will be a corresponding change in camber and toe as a result. Live axle rear suspensions have no change in camber or toe when they are compressed. This is why independent suspension is such a good thing.

I will definatly look into the bushings how can you tell the difference between a good and a bad bushing? Should it be easy to distinguish?

Bad bushings are cracked and typically leaking a brown silicon material if they are the filled type.