Honda makes another crappy hybrid.

[Jesda]

http://jalopnik.com/5566437/2011-honda- ... -drive-wip

Slow
Ugly
Expensive
And... oh god.. a CVT.



NOTHING GOOD HERE

Also, fuel economy — 31/37 mpg with the standard six-speed manual, or 35/39 with the optional CVT — wasn't impressive.

So, if you've always wanted to pay extra for a slow car that gets marginally better fuel economy than a Chevy Cobalt, Honda answered your prayers.

[Razi]

31/37 and 35/39?

Fail.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I knew they were going to foul this up. All the Civic/CRX fanatics were excited about it, convincing themselves it could be fun even with a hybrid powertrain. My cynicism told me otherwise. It was right.

This is basically the REAL 2nd gen Insight. 2 door, hatchback, 2 seats, goofy looking.
Like the Vehicross, it attempts to combine two types of cars and nails the worst of both and the best of neither.

Toyota intends to make more Prius badged cars, too, so we can expect even more stupidly engineered eyesores in the coming years.

[MellowZ32]

tYpE-r y0!

[AZ89two4Tsx]

The front end is nice, but the whole car is pretty much pointless. I doubt anyone is going to jump on the idea of a two seater hybrid that doesn't even get 40mpg.

And that dash layout is gross.

[MinisterofDOOM]

31/37 and 35/39?

Fail.

Yeah, exactly. Why can't anyone else see that we're moving BACKWARD here?

Buy a mid-90s Civic and you'll do that without dronetastic belt-driven transmissions and electric motors and a thousand pounds of dead weight.

Gluing electric motors on cars is NOT the solution to fuel economy woes. Making lighter, simpler cars is. Fuel economy is, by definition, the act of doing more with less. Why does that only apply to fuel consumed and not to engineering?! Why do we limit our scope of measurement to the fuel tank?

[93coupe]

Making lighter, simpler cars

This is all I ever want.

[Jesda]

"add lightness" as that one guy who builds Caterhams says

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

To be fair, CVT's are more efficient, lighter, and less complex.
And they have mentioned a Type-R variant with 200 combined hp...
But yeah Hybrids nowadays seem pretty pointless to me.
And I'd rather have a Fit Sport.

[Razi]

31/37 and 35/39?

Fail.

Yeah, exactly. Why can't anyone else see that we're moving BACKWARD here?

Buy a mid-90s Civic and you'll do that without dronetastic belt-driven transmissions and electric motors and a thousand pounds of dead weight.

Gluing electric motors on cars is NOT the solution to fuel economy woes. Making lighter, simpler cars is. Fuel economy is, by definition, the act of doing more with less. Why does that only apply to fuel consumed and not to engineering?! Why do we limit our scope of measurement to the fuel tank?

But sadly, there is no doubt we'll be seeing a ton of these on the Californian highways with "Save the Planet" stickers on their windows, just because we have idiots there like that.

[Jesda]

To be fair, CVT's are more efficient, lighter, and less complex.

Yeah, but then you get AIDS. That's not a win/win

[ADDirishboy]

Dude, my 02 Mirage gets better gas mileage than that. Honda Fail.

[MinisterofDOOM]

To be fair, CVT's are more efficient, lighter, and less complex.

Only if they're well-designed AND well-utilized. And so far they've been neither. They're expensive to maintain, unreliable, require more maintenance than a normal automatic, require special fluids, have more critical wear components...

But there are problems with application as well. This car is supposed to be a "fun" hybrid, so you know its CVT is tuned away from ultra-efficiency toward fun. But what automakers fail to understand is that no one wants a fun hybrid. You either want a fun car or think you need a hybrid. The two are irreconcilably exclusive.
That's the real problem: automakers STILL haven't grasped the fact that trying to please everyone pleases no one. They need to stop trying to make hybrids "appealing" and instead focus on making them do what they're supposed to do. Then they WILL be appealing...to those who feel like they need them.

"Fun" hybrids will always be a waste of money. They will not sell well and will attract no one.

[Looneybomber]

I'm still waiting for cars propelled exclusively by electric motors. A highly efficient turbine engine will turn a generator to power the electric motors and small battery banks can be used to absorb extra energy produced. That would require a LOT less weight than using an internal combustion engine and a large battery bank.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I'm still waiting for cars propelled exclusively by electric motors. A highly efficient turbine engine will turn a generator to power the electric motors and small battery banks can be used to absorb extra energy produced. That would require a LOT less weight than using an internal combustion engine and a large battery bank.

That's how the Volt works. Unfortunately GM bungled the power generation aspect of it, and is has now effectively become an expensive power-laundering machine, with the gas engine still doing all the real work.

Low-rpm torque-tuned diesel generator with electric drivetrain is the way to go IMO.
Turbines are high-rpm, low torque, the opposite of what you want when turning a generator.

I definitely agree about using batteries as a ballast or buffer. Produce a constant supply of electricity to the batteries, which can then provide a variable supply to the motors as needed. Design the power buffer right and you're never going to run short, but you also won't impair efficiency by expecting the combustion engine to operate over a wide RPM range.

[hachiroku781]

My Aw11 did around 35mpg highway. Albeit it was a gutless car and it took forever to get to highway speeds but hey she only weighed about 2450.

[HashiriyaS14]

"Fun" hybrids will always be a waste of money. They will not sell well and will attract no one.

Untrue. The LS600h is a "fun hybrid" simply because it's a 400hp+ car that you can use by yourself in the HOV lane. Exploiting dumb loopholes is fun.

[Dano]

I'll take a failed Honda over a Mitsubishi Mirage, Chevrolet Cobalt (can't say Chevy anymore!) and Chevrolet Volt anyday though.

[Looneybomber]

I'm still waiting for cars propelled exclusively by electric motors. A highly efficient turbine engine will turn a generator to power the electric motors and small battery banks can be used to absorb extra energy produced. That would require a LOT less weight than using an internal combustion engine and a large battery bank.

That's how the Volt works. Unfortunately GM bungled the power generation aspect of it, and is has now effectively become an expensive power-laundering machine, with the gas engine still doing all the real work.

I never read up on the volt. Maybe I should have though.

Low-rpm torque-tuned diesel generator with electric drivetrain is the way to go IMO.
Turbines are high-rpm, low torque, the opposite of what you want when turning a generator.

High speed generators run directly off a turbine have a big advantage over typical low speed generators in that they are much smaller and thus lighter, but still able to put out the same amount of power (increased power density). Turbines can be built to be extremely efficient in a narrow rpm range, more so than an internal combustion engine could be. They can also use variable vein geometry's to widen that rpm range or be built to be less efficient but in a wider rpm range. Same as with any turbo we put on our cars.

I couldn't really find any good "white pages" with my 15sec search.
http://www.high-speed-generator.com/

I definitely agree about using batteries as a ballast or buffer. Produce a constant supply of electricity to the batteries, which can then provide a variable supply to the motors as needed. Design the power buffer right and you're never going to run short, but you also won't impair efficiency by expecting the combustion engine to operate over a wide RPM range.

I actually thought about this quite a bit when I worked in the warehouse unloading trailers and driving the fork truck. (2.5yrs ago)
I would have the car designed to run entirely on the engine (the power produced by it's generator) when driving at 70mph with only the driver at the engine's maximum efficiency rpm. Any deviation then will marginally effect gas mileage due to having the engine spin at a rate different than where it's most efficient. Going up hills, it could use some of the energy in the battery buffer. Going down hill, engine rpm does not change and helps to charge the battery back up, ultimately trying to keep the battery around 75-80% capacity.

In town, the engine would again run at it's most efficient rpm, and shut off once the batteries are 100% charged. At 30% it would start back up and run at maximum efficiency and keep cycling.

[dre1507]

uggghhhhh, when will automakers stop letting tree huggers design their cars?

[Encryptshun]

uggghhhhh, when will automakers stop letting tree huggers design their cars?

Probably when the polar ice caps melt and cover the earth with water. Then they'll have them design their boats.

[dre1507]

when that happens i'd gladly float around on a piece of furniture until it all goes down.

[93coupe]

I'll take a failed Honda over a Mitsubishi Mirage, Chevrolet Cobalt (can't say Chevy anymore!) and Chevrolet Volt anyday though.

Why?

[Infinitiguy19]

Yeah that Honda trash looks nothing like an Audi (Sarcasm).

[Dano]

I'll take a failed Honda over a Mitsubishi Mirage, Chevrolet Cobalt (can't say Chevy anymore!) and Chevrolet Volt anyday though.

Why?

Reliability and faith in the product. Cobalts are garbage just like the cavaliers they replaced. The Mirage, yuck, everyone i've ever seen is a junkyard on wheels, and the Volt, LOL.

[MinisterofDOOM]

"Fun" hybrids will always be a waste of money. They will not sell well and will attract no one.

Untrue. The LS600h is a "fun hybrid" simply because it's a 400hp+ car that you can use by yourself in the HOV lane. Exploiting dumb loopholes is fun.

The LS460 is a luxury hybrid, which makes more sense. The technologies are not contradictory. And people with money for an LS probably have money for a nicer LS.
That's where the idea for the Converj comes from. Slap the Volt drivetrain in a Cadillac and use the wreath and crest as an excuse to mark it up enough to make it profitable.

No HOV privelege is worth having to drive a Lexus LS.
Here in Utah, HOV lanes get so little use that they actually sell HOV passes so anyone can drive in those lanes alone. They only offer a limited number per month, though. The better solution is to repaint the lines and give us 5 regular lanes back.

[Jesda]

Reliability and faith in the product. Cobalts are garbage just like the cavaliers they replaced. The Mirage, yuck, everyone i've ever seen is a junkyard on wheels, and the Volt, LOL.

Its kind of a silly statement since neither are really exclusive to the other. The CRZ is pointless and people -will- buy Cobalts and Civics instead.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Cobalts are garbage just like the cavaliers they replaced.

NOOOOOOO.

The Cavalier was one of the worst cars ever produced. The Cobalt is meh at worst, and actually quite decent in many ways. The SS is a genuinely good car (with some weak points, of course). Even if you do consider the Cobalt to be a bad car, the Cavalier was in a whole 'nother league.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Seriously what the hell happened to Honda in the past 3 years? They need a swift kick to the d!ck.

[Loki]

17 year old high school girls and car-clueless parents, rejoice. Honda has just the car for you.