I saw the "deals" thread, but thought it would be better to start my own.

I'm looking for a home audio setup for music. I might turn it on for movies as well sometimes, but the #1 use is going to be music (LOUD music, rock). Looking for a nice 2 channel amp, and 2 bigass speakers (none of these stupid tiny f***ers that everybody seems to be making today).

I'm still up in the air for a receiver, but I'm thinking of Cerwin Vega for the speakers.

Currently looking at this:

Cerwin Vega VE-12F• Frequency Response: 28 Hz - 20 kHz • Peak Power Handling: 300 watts • Sensitivity (1w/1m): 93 dB • 5 1/4" Midrange with Fiber Impregnated Cone • 1 1/4" Treated Silver Mylar Tweeter with Ferro Fluid • 12" Cast Frame High Excursion Woofer

Problem is, there really isn't any audio stores around me that stock quality speakers (let alone these Cerwin Vegas). The closest place that has these would be in Nashville, roughly 5 hours away. Does anybody have any experience with them? Of all the stereos I've heard, from the multi channel systems with satellite speakers and separate subwoofers, up to a multi-thousand dollar bose system, nothing pleased my ears more than a simple 2 channel receiver and a pair of bigass speakers (Fisher or Technics... can't remember which) that a friend of mine had. Another friend had a comprable system with a pair of KLH floor standing speakers that absolutely pounded.

I'll be going to Best Buy either on Friday or Saturday this week and visiting their Magnolia display. Anything I should look for? Do any other speaker companies still make large speakers?

High efficiency...this is my kind of thread.

I have two pair of similar Cerwin Vega speakers. They're the LS-12 model. They came out about 10yrs ago. The pair I bought new I've treated well and they still sound fine. The pair I bought used, the enclosure needs to be reglued and for some reason the tweeters are so loud they make my ears bleed. It's likely a crossover issue, but I've not wanted to take the time to fix it.

Anyhow, all I'm saying is be careful buying used...now on to the tread.

Big tower speakers that do not rely on a subwoofer are great and I will agree with you. After living with the not-so-audiophile sound quality of my CV's, I wanted something just as loud, if not louder, but of better sound quality.

[story that lead me to new info]After doing much research and learning the physics behind loudspeakers, I found out tweeters end up being the weak link in a speaker. So I needed a highly efficient tweeter, but one that could handle a lot of abuse. I ended up going with the Fountek NeoPro5i from madisound.com at 610/pr. I also already knew that for the woofer (15"), I wanted the AEspeakers.com Lambda series woofers 568/pr. Similar to this design by SalkSound, but with the 15" version of that woofer and larger tweeter.http://www.salksound.com/speakers_archos.shtml

However I never could get a mid picked out...paralysis through analysis. But the PHL1120 used in the one pictured above would be a venerable option.[/story]

I've done a lot more searching around since then and have noticed a push towards large 2way speakers using either a 12 or 15" woofer and a compression driver mated to a 12 or 15" waveguide due to their efficiency, simplicity, and directivity.Commercial options:http://www.emeraldphysics.com/....htmlh ... /Summa.htm

E-Wave DIY speakers:http://www.audiokarma.org/foru...27959h ... w7pTwpx0K0 Video

And many more commercial and DIY options...

With these 2-way designs, particularly the DIY kits, you can buy good high quality drivers (raw speakers), get a well designed crossover, and save money because you do all the work yourself.

A kit I'm eye-balling will cost around $600 plus enclosure costs, but a person could build the E-wave for around 450 plus enclosure costs and I wouldn't hesitate to think that it would surpass the output of the Cerwin Vega's, but I'm curious how good they sound. There's a lot of testimonials with people saying how good they sound, but I'd like to hear them for myself.

If only there weren't so many speakers I wanted to build...

I'm curious, how much are you wanting to spend?

*edit* I see those compression drivers for the E-wave are on sale for 84/pr. I may pick a pair up and play with them when I make my next order at PartsExpress.com
Modified by Looneybomber at 11:00 AM 8/27/2009

Good info!I was looking to spend under a grand for the entire system (receiver and speakers... I pretty much already have all the wiring). I was also looking to get the speakers pre-assembled. I simply don't have access to a woodworking shop where I could be making the boxes. Metalworking is a different story.

I feel I should also mention that I really am looking for something retardedly simple- speakers in a square box. I don't need anything modeled after the 7 star hotel in Dubai. Again, I'm in the same boat as you though... I really would like to hear these speakers before I buy them. I suppose I could just take the plunge and order a set though... I've never heard large speakers that I didn't like.

If you were closer, I'd have you come audition all of my speakers, including subwoofers and their pro-audio amps that power them...but you're not.

If buying a receiver (7 channel) for just two speakers and you want the max sound you can get for your money, look for a speaker that can be bi-amped. That way, instead of using 1 amp channel to power your speaker, you use 2. Twice the power means +3db in output.

However, I don't know of any bi-ampable cerwin vega home speakers, so a minimal amount of modifications would be necessary...and by minimal I mean a 2nd set of binding posts added to the terminal cup and you'd have to isolate the woofer section of the crossover from the mid/high section of the crossover.

As for never hearing large speakers you didn't like, you'll like them until you hear something better. Then you're screwed.

Depending on how much output you want, another option could be pro-audio speakers. They're ugly as hell, but they sure do work good...but some sound like trash. I've heard a few JBL's that sounded good, but wasn't a fan of their horn tweeter. That's why I want to build some of these DIY kits and swap compression drivers and horns/waveguides so I can get a better idea of what I'm hearing.

So things to think about,Will you upgrade to a 5 or 7.1 channel surround sound?If so,Do you want to have a 2 channel setup for music and a different 5/7 channel setup for movies? IE 7/9 speakers total plus subwoofer(s).

...But I think, in general, those CV's will make you happy! Hooked up to a nice receiver, they can really belt out some sound.

If later you feel like you need to upgrade, you're next plan of attack if you don't like horns&compression drivers would be some more potent 3-ways like I was going for or line-array's.

I never see myself going to full surround sound, for more reasons than one, so I plan on sticking with a 2 channel receiver. Things I was thinking about: If nobody wants my current setup (locally, looking to get $40 for a Sherwood 2 channel and some semi-decent yamaha bookshelf speakers), then I might try daisy-chaining the 2 receivers together and having each receiver power 1 speaker... just to see how it sounds.

I just have the feeling like, if I go with some bigass speakers (10"+), sure some will sound better than others, but its a pretty sure thing that all will sound good (if not great) for the music and volume which I'll be listening to them at. On the other side, I have DEFINITELY heard multi-channel, small speaker with separate subwoofer systems that have sounded like absolute garbage (granted, I've also heard systems that sound good as well).

Looks like I'll be placing an order for a pair of the VE-12Fs then. I'll probably have to wait til I get back from vacation though... I don't want them showing up when I'm not home.

Bah f*** it, I just bought them and got them shipped to my work address.

~$450 for the pair. Now I just gotta get a good receiver.

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:Bah f*** it, I just bought them and got them shipped to my work address.

~$450 for the pair. Now I just gotta get a good receiver.

Haha, I like your style.

Rest assured, going from the system you currently have to these speakers plus a new receiver, you will NOT be disappointed or have buyers remorse.

I used an old Sony pro-logic receiver (60Wx4) when I bought my CV's, remember, this was 10yrs ago, and it worked pretty good. I then bought a Pioneer VSX-1014tx (THX cert., 110Wx7, mosfet, ect...) and it improved both my sound quantity (SPL) and quality.

If you don't want to go surround sound, then you need not worry about things like HDMI, DTS Master Audio, ect... This saves you a lot of money because you can buy very nice, used receivers that do not have HDMI inputs or the top-level losses codecs for blu-ray that people are selling for no other reason than that.

That means you can get clean and powerful amplifier sections without all the extra (and expensive) additions for blu-ray.For example, a Denon 3805, which would still be more receiver than you need. But it does have a nice amp section.

*edit*Another option, would be getting an amplifier and not a receiver. For example, the Alesis RA500 Behringer A500 or others. You would then hook your computer up to it and use it for all music and movie watching/listening. You would lose the radio tuner that all receivers have though.
Modified by Looneybomber at 3:01 PM 8/27/2009

I pretty much never listen to the radio anyway... How many inputs do these amplifiers have? Really, I'd be hooking up my computer, and TV, with everything else being inputted to my TV (blu ray player, etc).

What kind of inputs are those?

Things I am looking for in a receiver/amp are:The inputs I mentioned above (RCA?)A remote control

Again, pretty simple. If you know of some badass 2 channel used receivers that I should look for, let me know. I have no problem buying used stuff.

Just checked out that Denon 3805... definitely more than I need. Looks like it comes with a remote that can launch nukes from anywhere on the planet. I'd like to spend under $500 on the receiver. I figure I should be able to get a pretty f***ing badass 2 channel for $500...

An amp does just one thing; It accepts an input and amplifies it...and I could go in and talk about amp topology/topography and gain structures but, really?

A receiver has an internal switch/router so to speak (pre amp). It will take multiple different inputs, send ONE of them (which ever is selected) to the amp section and then send that amplified signal to the speakers.

Personally, I use my computer as my preamp. I watch my TV, movies, music, ect, all through my computer, so I only use my receiver for it's amplifier and it's DSP (Digital Sound Processing, IE, Dolby digital, DTS, ect...) I could also have my computer do all the signal processing and then just buy amplifiers like you pictured above, but my receiver does all the DSP just fine, so I go the more simple and cheaper route since I already have this receiver.

If you need to switch between DVD, TV, xbox, blah blah blah, ect...you will need some kind of pre amp switching device which receivers have, but external amps don't*.

Here's the bad thing. Everything's going to surround sound, so companies spend big money on developing multichannel receivers. So all the good receivers are multichannel.

If looking for good quality two channel stuff, the direction of that market is either low wattage, but expensive tube amps, or high wattage and expensive solid state (transistor) amps....oh and the seperate preamp that goes with them, which itself is more expensive than a multichannel receiver.Here's about the cheapest, good 2-chan preamphttp://emotiva.com/usp1.shtm

*If you only hook up a TV and computer, it could be possible to send the audio output of the TV into an audio input in your computer, then send the computer output to an external amp, bypassing any switching function of a receiver.

Advantages of a receiver.-Simplicity. Plug in a lot of inputs, and it routes everything for you internally.-Ready for future upgrades to surround sound if buying a multichannel receiver or even future inputs that won't go through the TV like a Turntable.-Remote control. Useful if you're not able to adjust the internal computer volume because you're headbanging on the other side of the room.

Advantages of an external amp-You don't waste money on things you won't use.-More power output. (most all receivers, including 2-chan, are limited to about 100-120wpc)-Typically cleaner power output. Less distortion.

Available 2 channel receivers.Outlaw RR2150Rotel RX-1052Onkyo A-9555NAD C372NAD C352

Those I just listed are like the BMW and Mercedes of 2chan receivers. New, they're going to be over your price limit, but used they should be right in there. And hell, I'd love to have a used BMW M3.

If you want to spend even less, Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood, Onkyo, Denon all make cheaper 2chan receivers. I am just not very familiar with them at all.

Damnit! I wish there was someone around here that carried those brands so I could see them in person and give them a listen.

http://reviews.cnet.com/av-rec...l;txt

That looks like pretty much exactly what I want.



Amplifier Output Details 120 Watt - 8 Ohm - THD 0.07 % - 2 channel(s) ( Main ) , 150 Watt - 4 Ohm - THD 0.2 % - 2 channel(s) ( Main )

Got it through a few round-about links from the ones you sent me

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:http://reviews.cnet.com/av-rec...l;txt

That looks like pretty much exactly what I want.



Amplifier Output Details 120 Watt - 8 Ohm - THD 0.07 % - 2 channel(s) ( Main ) , 150 Watt - 4 Ohm - THD 0.2 % - 2 channel(s) ( Main )

Got it through a few round-about links from the ones you sent me

LOL I just clicked this thread because I was going to show you this Harman Kardon receiver, the 3490...and you posted about the 3480.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Harman-Kar...0.m14

In case you're wondering, that ebay link is for Harmanaudio, the seller for Harman International, the parent company of JBL, Infinity HK, Rotel, and I forget who else.

I've won 11 of their auctions and am only having an issue with one of their speakers. But I have a 1year warranty on it, so I will contact them and see about getting it replaced.

*edit*It appears the HK 3490 has sold for anywhere between 154.50 to 250.00 in the last 2 weeks.http://completed.shop.ebay.com...14981

Well good, that makes the decision easy.I went to Best Buy tonight to look for something that could power my speakers.The Good: Best Buy hired some good help that definitely knew what he was talking about. VERY helpful salesman.

The bad: Best Buy doesn't sell what I'm looking for.

Quite the interesting conversation with the Best Buy- Magnolia salesman. He initially came in to change out 2 receivers that were on display, one of which I was looking at (denon 80wx2 receiver). He asked me if I needed help (very politely) and then we got to talking. We talked about the speakers I bought (and their specifications... he was surprised by my knowledge. Something tells me he doesn't get many smart people in the shop). He then told me there was really nothing in the shop that would do my speakers justice... but he said they should be getting some high class stuff sometime in September (including record players).

Overall he was a pretty cool guy, and I'm glad he didn't try to sell me something I didn't want... even right after meeting me.

Again: Kudos to best buy for hiring good help, shame on them for not carrying good product.

Looks like I'll be ordering that Harmon/Kardon unit. Any noticeable differences between the 3490 and 3480? The price is actually well under what I was expecting to pay, but hey... if it works it works!

I've talked about this shortly with Auditatious I believe, but pretty much all the consumer receivers are short on power IMO.

100wpc works great for those with smaller speakers that never really crank it up. However, for those serious about music and movies, around 250-300wpc is required, with 200w being the minimum. This would greatly reduce clipping which both cleans up sound (clipping goes with high amounts of distortion) and improves dynamics, which keeps things from sounding lifeless......This also requires some pretty heafty speakers to take that amount of power.

The bad thing is we typically have 15A 110v circuits in our house, so that means a continuous 1650w, ~1800w if you factor in a 10% overload. If a TV sucks up a constant 200-300w, PS3 175w, light 50w, and DVR 30w, that's around 500w, which leaves ~1200w for the audio system. With today's subs and receivers, you'll just reach that (700w receiver and 500w subwoofer), but momentarily. That won't cause the breaker to trip but your lights will dim due to voltage sag.

Now, if we upgrade to amps with 250Wx7 along with 1kw subs, now we're running the risk of trippin breakers.

That said, with my 1.6kw (woofer) amp, I can dim lights pretty bad, but I have yet to trip a breaker. My 2.2kw sub amp though...I've never hooked it up at the same time as my 1.6kw amp just because I know I could trip it with that combo.

This is why you'll see folks installing dedicated lines for their amps to 1) give them more power and 2) protect the TV and other more delicate equipment from voltage sag and possible trips.

As for differences between 3480 and 3490, I don't know for sure, but I believe minimal. BTW that ebay link is for a refurbished unit, but like I stated earlier, I've bought quite a bit from them and everything's arrived looking new and have only now run into problems with just one speaker that should be covered under warranty.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...123

Bought that s***. $247 shipped, 10% off via live cashback.

Still don't know what the difference between the 3480, 3485, and 3490 are though... I think its essentially the same model just different release dates.

Ok, so make sure you have everything

x Speakersx Amp/receiver_ Speaker wire_ Connection cables

If you need anything, you can buy stuff local, or I've had real good luck with http://www.monoprice.com. Most everything is shielded (it specifies how much) and prices are the cheapest you can find (apples to apples). I highly recommend getting all shielded interconnects.

Once you're up and running, don't crank the volume. Put on some music and listen at a moderate volume, then slowly turn it up while listening for anything odd; cutting out, crackinging, scratching, popping, ect...

If you get to close to -0db and it starts sounding bad (distorted) it might be your ears , but it also might be the speakers or the receiver. Speakers usually have a pretty progressive distortion curve where-as amps are sudden.

Have fun and take some pictures.

I'll just use all my current wiring/connectors. I hope all this stuff comes in this week!

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:I'll just use all my current wiring/connectors. I hope all this stuff comes in this week!

Harman on ebay can take a while. I've had some stuff fairly quickly (auction won on the weekend and had it before next weekend) and I've had some stuff take over a month...but that's because they had some internal issue. In the end I bought 5 Infinity Beta-20 speakers and received 6 so I'm not mad

*edit*I've put a lot of input into this thread about specific products. I hope you don't think I pursuaded you to buy anything.

Nope, this thread served its purpose excellently. You kinda pointed me in the right direction and showed me some things that I didn't even know were out there. So yeah, overall, good stuff! Thanks a lot! I hope this thread proves useful for someone searching in the future. Hell, maybe it will even come up on a google search or something. Its not done yet either! I have to wait for all the stuff to come in, then take pictures and write a review (I guess).

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote: Its not done yet either! I have to wait for all the stuff to come in, then take pictures and write a review (I guess).

There's no guess work. As a mod, you're obligated to the fellow NICO members to do so.

Welcome to the recession business world; more responsibilities but no raise.

Looneybomber wrote:
Welcome to the recession business world; more responsibilities but no raise.

You hit the nail on the head with that one! I actually got a pay cut (along with all other salary workers) at work... and our work load INCREASED.

Same here. When work was low, they cut hours. Then as work loads increased, expectations rose, but hours/wk were still truncated.

Any tracking numbers? I'm curious how the HK receiver works for you.

no tracking numbers yet... I ordered the speakers thursday night and the receiver over the weekend. I was hoping the speakers would ship today though...

Holy crap, fast shipping from Harmon!

UPS Tracking number: 1Z6909F80314215832

I'll have it tomorrow! Still don't have anything from the speaker seller.

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:Holy crap, fast shipping from Harmon!

UPS Tracking number: 1Z6909F80314215832

I'll have it tomorrow! Still don't have anything from the speaker seller.

Yeah, most of the things I bought I won and paid for on the weekend, then received them before the next weekend. I did have a few show up after the weekend and then the one speaker that took over a month...but I did get a 6th speaker for free.

Keep me posted on this receiver, I could see some uses for it or a similar model at my fiance's work (Salon).

WOW. Just hooked up the Harmon Kardon and it sounds MUCH better than the Sherwood. Looks much better too. The speakers still have trouble with the low frequencies (obviously), but the clarity is pretty good.

Before, getting ready for the swap:

After:

You'll have to excuse the crooked pics... I was using a wii remote as a base for the camera. Apparently they aren't very flat.

Can't wait for the speakers

Unfortunately it's real tough to A/B receivers or amps when you also change speakers, but so far, when handling and using the receiver for this short period of time, how are these attributes?-Build quality?-Feel of buttons and knobs?-Heat generated? (it'll be tough because you can't really tax it with those speakers)-Ease of navigating menu's?-Screen layout?

HK is known for quality amps and receivers (they're not Bugatti, but still good) and I'm curious how it'd mate up with a high quality reference set of bookshelf speakers for critical music listening.

I got the speakers in the day before I left for RI, so I haven't listened too much, but am listening right now... and holy crap, I'm hearing notes that I haven't heard in years!

I first got everything plugged up and messed around with the radio... and I get signal slightly better than the Sherwood, but its still crap- no matter, like I mentioned before, I don't really listen to the radio here anyway. Switched over to computer input and started playing some songs through Itunes. Sound quality has increased dramatically over the previous system. I still haven't completely dialed in my EQ or anything.

After a quick break in at low to medium volumes, I played Boston's "Hitch a ride" and cranked up the volume just before leaving for the airport. As the volume went up (from about -40db to about -8db), I realized that this system is exactly what I wanted. At high volumes it still sounds AMAZING. I went up to 0db and thought "Hmm... that's where it maxes out huh? Its loud, but its not THAT loud". I then hit the volume up button again, and realized it also went into the +db zone. At +6, stuff started rattling in my house, and the dust was getting knocked off the walls and ceiling fans. Sound quality was still just as good as it was before.

One thing to note: The volume drops considerably when I turn my TV on. It all runs off the same circuit, and even goes through the same surge protector. I often listen to music through the computer without even looking at the Itunes library (with the TV off), and just use the audio controls on my wireless keyboard to skip songs. At first I thought it was some sort of remote control frequency overlap or something, with the power button being close to the "volume down" button, but I noticed the volume rating on the receiver doesn't change. It doesn't really matter that much, even at high volumes and with the TV on, it doesn't trip the circuit.



Messy living room

I'll get some more pictures after I get done sorting through all my pics from the vacation.

The remote is pretty damn huge... its the largest remote in my stable now. It doesn't have many buttons on it, but it DOES work from the other end of the house

Build quality for both the speakers and the receiver appear to be top notch. The receiver is refurbished, so there are a few scratches on it here and there, but nothing really on the face of it (the side you look at).

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:As the volume went up (from about -40db to about -8db), I realized that this system is exactly what I wanted

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:One thing to note: The volume drops considerably when I turn my TV on. It all runs off the same circuit, and even goes through the same surge protector.

Voltage sag. You can try to reduce it by getting the receiver off the surge protector that the TV is plugged into.

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:I then hit the volume up button again, and realized it also went into the +db zone. At +6, stuff started rattling in my house, and the dust was getting knocked off the walls and ceiling fans.

Here's where I insert the hearing conservation PSA; cumulative damage; hearing aids at 60; no more butt sechs...wait, what?

It's worth mentioning that if you want more bass, put your speakers in corners. It causes the speaker to radiate sound into a smaller area because you get more boundary reinforcement. Laymans terms means you get more bass, about 6db's. But don't stick those rear ports flat against the wall, instead angle the speaker that way the ports fire right into the corner and have room to breathe.

Oh, BTW, check out this song with your new speakers. Turn off your TV first.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq5GdutCRo8