high compression KA24DE E85 research

[jt15833]

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the plausibility of a high compression, NA KA24DE running E85.

While there are some emission related benefits of running E85 in a gasoline engine with the appropriate upgrades (mainly; fuel system), the true potential of E85 won't be released until it's high octane is utilized. More commonly this is done with a turbocharger and with E85 you can run a higher amount of boost vs. an E10 (gasohol, or basically gasoline now-a-days).

I would like to achieve this with a high compression, naturally aspirated KA24DE. When I say high compression, I am talking 13:1-15:1. None of this 11:0-1 honda BS. Other things would be upgraded as well to really make the engine an NA beast, ie; cams, port+polish, tuning, but that science is already established and documented.

The biggest quesiton I would like to have answered from this thread is how can I go about getting some high compression pistons like this? And if anyone has done this, I'd like to see the current application.

Also comments/opinions on the idea in general is appreciated and this should make us all a little smarter regarding this up and coming biofuel.

[Ajax]

You'll have to look into custom pistons, probably. I'm not aware of anyone that stocks them that high for our engines.

[Bigvinnie]

There are no emissions benefits to E85, once you adjust the pulse width for 1/3 more E85 to equal that of the energy of petroleum fuel. Carbon emissions are just as high. On an equivalent of energy, what ever you burn will release relatively close to the same ppm levels. That's the properties of energy density. If you chose to run e85 with less pulse width it can be a tad more conservative on emissions, but from a performance standpoint its just as dirty.The only huge benefit from E85 is lower NOX on high compression, but carbon doesn't change.

What you will need for a basic setup is sr20det injectors, stock ecu with no tuning needed. eventually it would be nice to up the pressure pn the fuel rail with a fuel pump from a q45, 300z, or circuit sport, or walbro. Most basic set up and it runs.You should realize that once you up the compression higher than an 11.5:1CR, cams sizes are limited to less lift and duration, because there is less space for the valve to open.

To yeild the best high compression. you should stick with the stock pistons which offer theh most space for valve clearance. Clover leaf weld the head, and mill the head to tolerances that would yeild you around an 11.5:1CR.With clover leaf welding you may be possible to get away with higher CR's in the 12.5:1 to 13.5:1.

changing out the squish area of the piston is the worst way to make a high compression engine, because then ultimately it effects swirl and atomization.Best way to yield efficient power is to alter the head through milling and welding.

[jt15833]

"The U.S. Department of Energy has published facts stating that current corn-based ethanol results in a 19% reduction in greenhouse gases, and is better for the environment than other gasoline additives such as MTBE."

-wikipedia E85 page -> citinghttp://www1.eere.energy.gov/bi....html

This number 19% is only going to go up. It is regarding first generation ethanol production (corn). Second generation production can yield at least 7x more output for the same input. It also doesn't consume food to make the ethanol.

Anyways, due to the complexity of getting a 13:1-15:1 CR KA24, I will probably just turbo it and convert to E85 down the road.

[Bigvinnie]

I'm not here to argue with you or the department of energy. I think your getting mislead with what they mean in green house gasses. NOX levels are reduced from use of E85 and that is a green house gas. Your carbon emissions as well are a green house gas and I think it's misleading that it's partial information given to the public..The replacement of lower NOX leads to much cleaner H20 and O2.Lower EGT with use of Ethanol reduces NOX emissions in higher compression engines.

Sulfer Oxides are obviously reduced as well as Nitric Oxide. Nitric Oxide and sulfer Oxide being Nox.The mixture of sulfer Oxide and Nitric Oxide combined create sulfiric acid. Since Nitric Oxide and Sulfiric Oxide are reduced in E85, in theory there should be less particulate matter involving the chemical components of acid rain.

Now since E85 reduces sulfiric acid, now when oxidized through the catylitic converter now becomes acetic acid. Acetic Acid is less harmful to the environment and is close to being on the level of vinegar, but none the less it can still contaminate drinking water, kill oceanic life, and burn the roots to tree's and grass. It can also cause respiratory problems, causing inflammation of the lungs and nasal passages, as well as irritation to the eye's.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 10:20 AM 9/6/2009

[blownhemi]

CO2 is the "most dangerous" greenhouse gas. Burning ethanol produces less CO2 than gasoline, because Ethanol contains less carbon, and more hydrogen in one molecule (by proportions), C8H18 - gas, C2H6 - ethanol. Of course, hence the lower heating value per mass of ethanol.

[Bigvinnie]

CO2 is the "most dangerous" greenhouse gas. Burning ethanol produces less CO2 than gasoline, because Ethanol contains less carbon, and more hydrogen in one molecule (by proportions), C8H18 - gas, C2H6 - ethanol. Of course, hence the lower heating value per mass of ethanol.

O.K please pay attention to the stoich to energy formula. I'm only going to post this once so if you don't understand it. Then you don't understand E85.Energy of 89 Octane 10% ethanol blended to street fuel1/14.7 (kg_gasoline/kg_air)*44(MJ/Kg_gasoline)= 2.993XXXX MJ/kg_airEnergy of 110 octane with 0% ethanol added to racing fuel1/14.7 (kg_gasoline/kg_air)*47(MJ/Kg_gasoline)= 3.1972XXXXX MJ/kg_airEnergy of E85 15% fuel added to ethanol1/10.5 (kg_E85/kg_air)*33(MJ/Kg_gasoline)= 3.1428XXXX MJ/kg_air

In any case the relative power to E85 over 110 octane is almost relatively the same in energy, infact E85 has slightly less power. Stoich on a gasoline wideband for E85 is 10.5:1, while it takes less gasoline with more energy at 14.7:1. Your misconstrued with how many times the carbon chains of E85 are multiplied at a 10.5:1 stoich ratio, what allows exhaust gas temperature in E85 to be lower is after the molecular chains break then you are left with bi products of H20 which is a cooling property.

[jt15833]

so are you trying to state that gasoline is better for the environment than E85?

[Bigvinnie]

so are you trying to state that gasoline is better for the environment than E85?

There are no differences accept from a performance standpoint you can get E85 for $3.40 gallon VS 110 octane for $5.90. Gasoline engines consume E85 1/3 faster as gasoline so relative to cost you save about $1.00 at the pump. Down side would be is that now carbon mass would be consumed faster which there is no way to compensate for the amount of E85 that would need to be produced.

This chart from the EPA website you listed should be enough to prove my point. Less BTU, is less power output, so of course on the level of it's BTU iot will make less emissions than gasoline. But if you want it to equal the same energy as gasoline its carbon emissions will be relatively the same.

If you try to make it relative to 91 or 89 octane obviously lower octanes will yield higher MPG's and cost less at the pump. E85 just doesn't work from a logical standpoint accept for a performance standpoint at the track.

I don't agree at the rate we consume fossil fuels, so I can tend to agree that we as a society need to move on to an industry that could create new green jobs locally in the U.S and stop putting money in the hands of the Arabic nations.

Emission standards for gasoline unleaded vehicles are so strict that inherently there is no difference between E85 and gasoline when you blow the emissions out the rear tail pipe.

E85 doesn't need an EGR valve since E85 doesn't produce Nitric Oxide which is the main component of NOX so from that point of view, no EGR valver would only yield additional power over gasoline. Not to mention E85 yields lower cylinder temperatures.

Albert Einstien said that energy can neither be created or destroyed.

So after you burn E85 and think it is just as clean to gasoline think again, energy matter is all relative, and once its burned its waste is all relative as well.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 6:17 PM 9/14/2009