HHO Technology

[freezerbird]

Hello.
I am brand new to this forum and my query is the reason I joined.
I have a 2007 Pathfinder 2.5litre DCI (Diesel 6 spd manual). Have only driven 52000km here in South Africa (approx 10% offroad).
For several years I have been receiving emails on HHO Generators to significantly improve consumption and performance on petrol and diesel engines.
I have done some research and there are many conspiracy theories about the oil companies trying to repress its use.
Do any members have any experiences with this technology?
Ches

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Welcome to the boards, don't think we have any other members from your neck of the woods. As far as answering your question I have never heard of it, but I'm sure someone on here has and will be able to help you with your question.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

It's a scam.
There is no conspiracy.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

There was a member on here a while back (Fueler?) trying to scam NICO with "HHO" systems.

It's all s***.

It's also s*** that we don't get diesel 6 speed Pathfinders over here.

[alms24sebring]

It's also bullsh*t that we don't get diesel 6 speed Pathfinders over here.

^

Never heard of it. Your getting scammed by Nigerians again

[bcar240]

Ditto on the BS. It sounds goods because it is based on scientific principles (misapplied ones), but there is a reason it is on the fringe instead of mainstream. HHO itself could potentially boost power (if you tune the engine for it, it's almost certainly not a plug and play addition), but not at the expense of generating it on the fly. You would never be able to recover as much power from the HHO as it would take to generate it. You might be increasing engine performance, but to create a significant amount of it would creating a massive draw on the electrical system and alternator.

[z32pilot62]

The efficiency of the system has a lot to do with how it is set up. The most efficient design is what is known as a dry cell system. Even a simple system can see gains in economy but there are alot of factors that have to be taken into account. One, you need to be pretty mechanically inclined to even start to think about this. Why? Because just adding the system to your car will actually make you get worse MPGs if you dont tune it. Why? You are adding more oxygen to the combustion cycle so the car thinks you are running leaner so it adds more fuel. This is where oxygen extenders or EFI enhancers come into play. You have to trick the computer(tune) into using less fuel because you are adding a combustible mixture that it sees as a lean situation to the mix. Two, you need to have common sense when using the system. Just because you turned it off does not mean it stops working immediately. There is a residual current that will still cause the production of HHO even after the system is shut off. The cell works essentially like a battery transferring energy from one electrode to another, the byproduct of which is heat in the form of spitting the water atom. So the system has to be cooled as well whether that be by air flowing over it or a radiator inline to cool the water. Three, you have to know a little chemistry. The more catalyst you add will change the current draw, it also affects the output of HHO gas. The more catalyst the more HHO.

Surface area and plate count makes a huge difference in how much energy is used to produce a given amount of gas as well. The more plates the more the voltage drop and the fewer amps that are consumed but will produce more HHO. A 6"x6" 21 plate dry cell(properly designed) running at 15 amps usually is capable of producing 1.5 L/min of HHO static. You produce more gas when the system us under vacuum from your intake because the gas does not have to push its way out of the generater. 15 amps is not a lot if you can tune out 20% of your fuel economy and only add a pint of distilled water every 2 weeks.

I researched this for months for a paper in school, even went as far as putting a system in a friends truck and tinkering as we went. The system we made was very crude but did some very awesome things. Now was our system optimized? NO Did it potentially hurt his truck? Maybe, but its still running strong today just no longer has the generator in it. It was in a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4.0L. His best mpg before HHO was 21.3 mpg on the highway, after he saw an increase to 32.4 mpg highway. The only modifications that were done to the Jeep were oxygen sensor extenders. If I was to do it again I would not use those, but a full "EFI-E" system to accurately control the computer. It is the same principle as adding a AFC rather than getting a proper tune.

Do your own research, do your own testing, be EXTREMELY careful as bad things can and will happen if you do not take proper precautions when dealing with this. I know alot of people do not believe that it works but I know what my research found and can only tell you that it does work and it can be made efficient. But what do I know, I'm just a guy typing away behind my computer screen with no video proof to back it up so believe me if you will. Or dont, I really dont care.

[Ace2cool]

So let me get this straight, you drive a Z32, you fly planes, and are an electro-physicist? Where's your GQ coverpage?

[z32pilot62]

So let me get this straight, you drive a Z32, you fly planes, and are an electro-physicist? Where's your GQ coverpage?

LOL, just waiting on the photographer to show up! Seriously though, you made my day with that one Ace.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

The efficiency of the system has a lot to do with how it is set up. The most efficient design is what is known as a dry cell system. Even a simple system can see gains in economy but there are alot of factors that have to be taken into account. One, you need to be pretty mechanically inclined to even start to think about this. Why? Because just adding the system to your car will actually make you get worse MPGs if you dont tune it. Why? You are adding more oxygen to the combustion cycle so the car thinks you are running leaner so it adds more fuel. This is where oxygen extenders or EFI enhancers come into play. You have to trick the computer(tune) into using less fuel because you are adding a combustible mixture that it sees as a lean situation to the mix. Two, you need to have common sense when using the system. Just because you turned it off does not mean it stops working immediately. There is a residual current that will still cause the production of HHO even after the system is shut off. The cell works essentially like a battery transferring energy from one electrode to another, the byproduct of which is heat in the form of spitting the water atom. So the system has to be cooled as well whether that be by air flowing over it or a radiator inline to cool the water. Three, you have to know a little chemistry. The more catalyst you add will change the current draw, it also affects the output of HHO gas. The more catalyst the more HHO.

Surface area and plate count makes a huge difference in how much energy is used to produce a given amount of gas as well. The more plates the more the voltage drop and the fewer amps that are consumed but will produce more HHO. A 6"x6" 21 plate dry cell(properly designed) running at 15 amps usually is capable of producing 1.5 L/min of HHO static. You produce more gas when the system us under vacuum from your intake because the gas does not have to push its way out of the generater. 15 amps is not a lot if you can tune out 20% of your fuel economy and only add a pint of distilled water every 2 weeks.

I researched this for months for a paper in school, even went as far as putting a system in a friends truck and tinkering as we went. The system we made was very crude but did some very awesome things. Now was our system optimized? NO Did it potentially hurt his truck? Maybe, but its still running strong today just no longer has the generator in it. It was in a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4.0L. His best mpg before HHO was 21.3 mpg on the highway, after he saw an increase to 32.4 mpg highway. The only modifications that were done to the Jeep were oxygen sensor extenders. If I was to do it again I would not use those, but a full "EFI-E" system to accurately control the computer. It is the same principle as adding a AFC rather than getting a proper tune.

Do your own research, do your own testing, be EXTREMELY careful as bad things can and will happen if you do not take proper precautions when dealing with this. I know alot of people do not believe that it works but I know what my research found and can only tell you that it does work and it can be made efficient. But what do I know, I'm just a guy typing away behind my computer screen with no video proof to back it up so believe me if you will. Or dont, I really dont care.

Lulz. Where are you at, Riddle?

[freezerbird]

Hi to all of you who replied or had their cent's worth!
It seems as though the HHO market has moved on from DIY.
These are the guys who have been emailing me, following my initial research. ( www.water4gas.com )
By the way, I was a navy engineer and the principle seems based on scientific laws.

PS: Didn't realise that this was such a macho site!

[numbnuts240]

more macho than randy savage.

[Red coupe]

Hi to all of you who replied or had their cent's worth!
It seems as though the HHO market has moved on from DIY.
These are the guys who have been emailing me, following my initial research. ( http://www.water4gas.com )
By the way, I was a navy engineer and the principle seems based on scientific laws.

PS: Didn't realise that this was such a macho site!

Water is a pretty stable molecule inst it?

You were an engineer and are familiar with science, so break out the books and calculate the energy released from splitting a water molecule to h2 and o2.

Then figure out the energy from combining 2 h2 with 1 o2, and see how much energy there is to be gained from splitting, then recombining water.

What science do they offer to make up for the fact that after inefficiencies come into play your wasting energy splitting water apart to recoup some of it by burning?

Electricity is cheaper then gasoline, and water is cheap as well... so you may be able to find some gains there, but in the end it is only because electricity is cheaper then gas. This does not mean the idea works well because in the end the step of splitting and recombining the water molecule is a net loss, so while that energy may be cheaper, it would be cheaper still to simply use the electricity to power your accessories, rather then losing some of it producing hydrogen, then lose more of it to a wildly inefficient combustion process.

Furthermore, how many amp hours are the batteries used to run the electrolysis process? Only a portion of this energy makes it to the drive train, but ignore losses and I bet that you will find that even the over optimistic theoretical calculations assuming no waste of the battery power will show the energy supplied by the battery per mile of travel or hour of operation will be VERY negligible compared to the energy contributed by the gasoline.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

By the way, I was a navy engineer and the principle seems based on scientific laws.

Does science work differently in South Africa? Because HHO is, scientifically, s***. At least here in the states. As stated so well above.

[freezerbird]

I didn't say I was a chemist!

[MinisterofDOOM]

What science do they offer to make up for the fact that after inefficiencies come into play your wasting energy splitting water apart to recoup some of it by burning?

EXACTLY. These designs are INHERENTLY inefficient. You're never going to get as much energy back out of the system as you put into it. If you're looking at one of those "bottle of water with an electrode" setups under the hood, you're going to be generating more electricity for the electrolysis than you'll be getting out of the extracted hydrogen.

And THAT is assuming a really, really well built electrolysis setup AND a really well-tuned engine designed to make best possible use of available hydrogen. These garage-built setups have neither.

HHO injection is pseudoscience. It does not actually work. This is all really, really basic stuff. It's also the reason hydrogen fueled electric cars are not everywhere already. Even the very best laboratory-condition electrolysis arrangements are inefficient. Hydrogen from water simply is not practical. It's unfortunate, but so is a lot of science.