Hey white folk...

[deesolballs]

Do you white folk feel shortchanged? Particularly you white men/boys? Is there so much emphasis on the plight of minorities and women that you guys feel you have been forgotten about?

I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine and he expressed this sentiment. He has been unemployed for a year and a half and is depressed about not being able to find work. He said that if he were me (black, intelligent, articulate, creative, enterprising, magnetic, ambitious, educated and handsome) he would be working by now. Implying that me, as a black man, could find a job before him because some employers feel they need to shake a little pepper on their business (so to speak) to avoid EEOC problems.

Let's talk about it my pale face comrades!!

[MaineExport]

Well, this honkey cracker-jack grew up in the whitest state in the Union.... good 'ol VT. Now it happens to be the gayest state in the Union... thank you liberal party for forcing legislature on an unsuspecting simpe-minded public that doesn't usually leave the farm to go out and vote. Now the rainbow flag flies just slightly above the VT state flag. Now I lve in the culturally diverse mecca of Maine. So, not having been expose to much diversity it is hard to h ave a real-world opinion about the matter.

But anyway... about the EEOC gripe... I've never been knowingly 'victimized' by it. It is certainly a grey area, and I've heard both sides arguments beaten down like Rodney King... but... I guess it's hard to take offense over something that has never had a direct effect on my advancement in life (at least not a tangible one).

I do feel that one has more influence over their own future than any quotas or legislation can dictate. Hard work ad just plain getting-off-your-a$$ can get ANYONE a long way in life. Those that are complacent and sit there and copmplain get just what they deserve... more power to them. :rolleyes

[VimyJ]

Now I lve in the culturally diverse mecca of Maine. So, not having been expose to much diversity it is hard to h ave a real-world opinion about the matter.

That doesn't seem to keep you from waxing loquaciously about international affairs though, does it?

[Mayhem_J30]

I don't feel 'shortchanged' as a white male, but rather as just a male. I've only experienced women getting ahead farther then men. The engineering society begs for women engineers and they WILL get the job before a man. Unfortunate as while sitting in engineering school I looked around and seen only one female. So in this particular group of people she was the 'minority' and in which case was most definately favored. She recieved a free ride through school just because she's a female with the same major as I. She was also recieving job offers her first year in school where I may never see any..ever.In any case the glass ceiling has been reversed. Or maybe it should be called a 'hidden path' instead. One that only a minority can see. Regardless, I don't care as I have never had to experience any hardships for being a white male. I'm just happy at this point to be the by-product of a middle class white suburbia family, and not living in a desert brainwashed by evil dictators.

[MaineExport]

That doesn't seem to keep you from waxing loquaciously about international affairs though, does it?

ha ha... very funny! Yes... and there is a HUGE difference between experiencing cultural diversity and keeping up on current affairs. One can have strong beliefs about society, politics, and economic issues without having lived in FOREIGN countries or having been a member of different political parties.

But anyway... Touché... good volley Vimy!

[deesolballs]

http://www.theamericanprowler....43_16

My buddy sent me this on the issue.

[VimyJ]

It is my privilege to work in an industry where age, sex or race doesn't matter. If you can do it, it's all good and it transcends the physical package we come to the gig in. It immediately puts the lie to the concept of stereotyping.

[MetaOrbit]

I would say, the only experience I have had with it, would have to be during my college application process.

I never knew the specifics behind all the schools I applied to, but I learned of the advantages given to minorities of at least one school.

Senior year, during our application stage, I had a friend, who was black, who was trying his best to get a 24 on his ACT so he could be eligible for a full-ride scholarship to Vanderbilt. I, on the other hand, the valedictorian, tons of service organizations, volunteer activities, 31 on my ACT, etc. applied and only received $400 of unsubsidized loans. Keep in mind it's approximately $41k per year to attend Vandy.

The scholarship my friend spoke of was available only to African Americans, and to say the least - I felt cheated. I felt like everything I had done and worked for meant nothing - in that it resulted in me receiving nothing.

Now, to be totally fair, I did receive sizable awards from other schools, I just know the details behind what occurred at Vandy.

Do I have a grudge against minorities? Do I hate them? No.

My dad is a minority - and thus I suppose I am too....just not one considered for preferential treatment in certain circumstances. I feel like I'm not availed the opportunities of others, but it just means I have to work twice as hard to make myself known and desirable to those who give jobs and other opportunities. That's fine with me. In the end, I think it will all even out.

[BIONICQ45]

I feel like I'm not availed the opportunities of others, but it just means I have to work twice as hard to make myself known and desirable to those who give jobs and other opportunities. That's fine with me. In the end, I think it will all even out.

oh the irony!!!

My black peers have been crying that same phrase for years. The claim is that we have to work twice as hard for half the recognition.

So I need to know before it is too late...is the value of 1 mediocre minoirty > 2 hard working whitesor 1 medicore white > 2 hard working minorties.

Or if everyone THINKS they have to work twice as hard so they actually DO (except the lazy bums who sit and boohoo about their plight)....then

1LB=[2HWP/1+(2M+2W)]^3 where LB = Lazy bum, HWP= hard working people, M=minority and W=white.

Someone sort this out so I can decide if I need to be a bum or a hard worker. Or does it matter as long as one is of the right race??

[MetaOrbit]

I think it underscores the idea that it probably happens on both sides, more than anyone would like to admit. Maybe one of those grass is always greener scenarios..

[Rockenreno]

I think that the whole minority thing works both ways. Everyone complains about how minorities are not treated fairly, so some people overcompensate. Then again, some people do not.

As a middle-class white male, the only problem I have encountered so far was the dreaded college application process. I currently go to UCSD (yes, there is a UC in San Diego and our engineering department is ranked higher than UCLA's), but my first choice was Berkeley, which I did not get into. On arrival here, I talked to many asians in my engineering classes (oh so many asians here) and they all got in to Berkeley, and they all had lower SAT scores, lower GPAs, and fewer extra curricular activities than I.

Now I am glad I did not get into Berkeley... for mostly other reasons, but regardless, admissions should not have any basis on race or sex. It is absurd. Go figure that a 4.3 GPA and 1410 on the SAT is not good enough for Berkeley...:eyecrazy

By the by, I have nothing against asians, african americans, women, or anyone else... except Canadians! (just kidding)I think that by trying so hard not to discriminate, we are only encouraging discrimination.

[Mayhem_J30]

I'm beginning to sense that there is a problem with this in Universities.

[ninjak84]

Being a huge piece of Eurotrash myself, I don't really feel shortchanged.There are some things I don't agree with though. Sites like http://www.asianavenue.com and http://www.blackplanet.com are a little hypocritical. I mean, if there was a http://www.whiteplanet.com, we would be a big group of rascists. It's such a lame double standard.Most of my friends are Euro's or Asian's though, so whatever.

[yeswepromise]

i'm white. i feel fine. i have a s***-hole job. i need more money. i am also hungry.

[Movingviolation240]

http://www.theonion.com/onion3....html

This is a bit off topic, but if any of you are as bored as I am at work it might be fun to look at.

Paul

[89sxRCR]

People who gripe about being "shortchanged" really bug the hell out of me...no matter the color. The only thing they are shortchanging is themselves, giving in to a self defeatist attitude...absolving all of thier own responsibility for thier own success. btway, white is no longer the majority in california, i am now a minority. Funny, it feels the same. I know if i got a job i was less qualified for than another applicant, yet i recieved it due only to my race, i would quit.

[GatorS14]

here is my take on it:

There is no White Entertainment TelevisionThere is no white history monthThere are no scholarships for just being whiteThere is no white spring breakThere are no white colleges

if there was .....the naacp would be right there.Blowing whistles.

Now, I'm not mad about these self-segragated situations and events.

It makes me sick to my stomach when i hear complaints about equal rights because, I know many groups of people(not just minorities) go through alot of the same things.If something doesn't work out for you it doesn't always mean someone is being racist.

It's kinda like the greeks and romans: "It's bad weather, the rain god must be pissed at us"

my $ .02

[ninjak84]

I just don't enjoy how people use "equal rights" complaints to gain more priviledges.Up in Canada, there is a MASSIVE barrier between Indians and everyone else. Specifically because when any Indian turns to age 18, he is given $80,000 to do whatever he wants with. No questions asked, just $80k given to the kid. And wow, do they ever waste that money.Here are two examples that I'd like to get off of my chest:

1: A friend of mine has an uncle who owns a truck tuner shop. They do performance and everything else to trucks. Over half of their customers are Natives, who spend upwards of $50k on each truck. The part that gets to me, is that sometimes they don't even come back for the trucks once they're done! The shop just sells them off, and there goes $50k of taxpayers money, for nothing.

2: Another friend of mine had a best friend who was Native. When she turned 18, they got 5 friends together, and burned every article of clothing they owned. Underwear, bra's, pants, sunglasses, everything. Then, the 5 of them went out and spent almost all of the money on new clothes.

[pitbull_240]

If you feel short changed for anything in life, you have no one to blame but yourself!!! Affirmative action works for blacks OR whites depending on the companies majority of employees. Same with colleges.

So, regardless of color, if you haven't done college, worked 60 hour weeks when you were only asked to do 40, or whatever you need to do to get ahead in the job market, you have no one to blame but yourself. I have a friend that has 1 posses of cocaine, 1 posses of MJ, 2 DUIs, countless numbers of disorderly conducts, and other minor traffic violations, and he meets resistance when searching for employment, but always finds something extremely lucrative.

If you are at a disadvantage, that means you need to do things to improve yourself, to make you more marketable. You need to play the game quicker, smarter, and cleaner than the next man to get and keep the job. If you don't, you have no one to blame but self.............

[Sopdadope]

The whole college apps process sucks for minorities too. I'd like to think I'd get accepted over another applicant because I was more qualified rather than being a charity case. It's a slap in the face if the school systems' basically saying "oh hey, because your a minority, we'll spot you two hundred points on the SAT's."

Maine,

I lived in Vermont for nearly two years and recently stopped by there on my way to Montreal. It's a nice picturesque state but I've never experienced such blatant racism as I did in Vermont. I'd rather die than live in Vermont or Idaho...

[Stoneage_Turbo]

hmm , i sometimes feel "short changed" but it relates to being a single young white male

around here regardelss of skill minoritys and women get awards , us crackers ususaly dont and me never due to the rumors that float around about me , around here im a legend from my attitude and work ethic (i do get pissy when things arent done right)

Females...i spent lots of time and money with girls that in the end wouldnt want anything to do with me becuse im not black , i just make a great freind , but thats once again my own undoing , the minoritys have style rythim (see i cant even spell it) and generaly are more laid back then my uptight/conservitive white ways

i seem toget burned at the stake for stuff that women/minoritys get away with , when you dont fear sex/racisim charges one can punish accordingly

same story with married people , they do as they plese and seem to form a good ol boy gang go off in there own "click"

this all doesnt make me hate minorties.married people , just makes me want to be one , i envy the lifestyle

waiting to have my arse kicked now .......

signed,the bitter old white guy

ps , dees there isnt a subject you wont talk about is there?its admireable dude

[MaineExport]

Maine,

I lived in Vermont for nearly two years and recently stopped by there on my way to Montreal. It's a nice picturesque state but I've never experienced such blatant racism as I did in Vermont. I'd rather die than live in Vermont or Idaho...

I love Vermont and will always consider it my home. Eventually I will move back there and raise my family.

You are entirely correct... there is a certain element of racism there, but it seems to be more out of ignorance than hatred. I traveled down south once, and it seemed to me that the southern brand of racism is bred from generation upon generation of hateful people. In the north, especially Vermont it seems that the prejudice and racist tendencies are more a result of lack of exposure to diversity. Not that one type of racism is any more acceptable than another... but it is a different feeling.

Growing up I had no idea that people were different in anyway.. and I when I saw a black person on TV I never thought they were any different than I. I didn't discover a difference until I was told that I should NOT notice a difference. We had a black family move into our school system... and before they came to school, the faculty LITERALLY held a student assembly in the gym to tell us all not to treat these new students differently!!! Can you imagine? If they hadn't gone out of their way to tell us NOT to treat them differently... the entire school would have NEVER thought about them as anything different than ourselves. We didn't know about black and white... we were all kids for kripe sake!!! But, the school system made an issue of them being different.

But, my roots are in Vermont and there is a quality of life there that can't be found anywhere else I've ever traveled. The people aren't perfect, but they are genuine and hardworking.

[sixxdeuce]

I dont know how it works in canada but here in california the money native americans recieve when they turn 18 is not all from taxpayers, most of it comes from their casinos, I think its cool that the money gets shared instead of a few people getting all of it. Also you have to be a registered tribal member to get the money and they encourage using it for college and have many resources available to help them get to college. But your right, a lot of the natives just waste the money on total crap, you cant do anything about that

[lessthanjakejohn]

Quote »Do you white folk feel shortchanged? Particularly you white men/boys? Is there so much emphasis on the plight of minorities and women that you guys feel you have been forgotten about? [/quote]

three years ago I was looking to get into high school and I had the highest academic grade in my class.... I was accepted 5th out of 10 and 3 of the people that were ahead of me were minorities and are now failing... (ie prealgebra failing).

I also think that what Maine posted is also true.

We are at the point now where we have staticians to count the race of people in just about everything. If one side is unbalanced we have to bring in some dif people...retarded.

edit: sorry if that did not come out right, I'm a nice guy

[AZhitman]

I agree with the point that by TRYING so hard to be inoffensive, we perpetuate offensiveness and draw MORE attention to our differences...

I personally have never experienced favoritism or discrimination. However, I have done a "VimyJ" here in the States: I have resided in 7 states and territories. I was born in AL, moved to PR, then to MS, then to NC, KS, MA, AZ. As a child, my elementary school was de-segregated 2 YEARS PRIOR to my starting there. There were still "white" and "colored" signs over the water fountains that had been hastily painted over. The school was about 60% Black, 20% Asian and 20% White (lots of Asians in Alabama and Mississippi). I never realized the difference in how people were treated until I returned to the South in 1992 (all Arizona-ized and liberalized) and I recognized that the Black people I casually spoke to in passing averted their eyes and wouldn't speak back... I was like WTF? This is a problem.

BTW - Great thread Deezle. You da man!

[ninjak84]

Almost all of my friends are European or Asian.It has alot to do with how we were raised, and the things we like to do together.I'm not so sure it's the racial aspect that drives people away, I think it has alot to do with where you're coming from as a person/family. My family is a very successful group of immigrants, and it happens that all of my friends are successful immigrants as well.Let's face it, no one likes hanging out with people that don't understand what kind of person you are. It's frustrating as hell. It's much easier just to ignore them, and stick with your friends.

[deesolballs]

There are some good points thus far in this thread. I thought some of you would shy away from such a topic. A lot of you have expressed concern about being passed over in college or highschool so that the minorities can "have a seat" but I have to point out that there are times where said minority's scores are better than yours. It is not ALWAYS a case of charity. There are some pretty sharp minorities out there and hell, we gave you guys Michael Jackson so quit boohooing!!

Here is another question to which I always desired the answer.

Do you guys (white, asian, latin, etc.) talk about other ethnic groups when they aren't present? Be honest. I know when I go to get my hair cut the topic always comes up without fail. Maybe because the barbershops are the most segregated places in the US (aside from church, talk about hypocrisy). I have never seen a white person come to the barbershop I go to. Maybe its the fear of having a black power afro pic in your hair. I dunno. Race is widely discussed in there, some good some bad. Do you guys do this when you are amongst your own so to speak??

Talk about it dammit....

[VimyJ]

Do you guys (white, asian, latin, etc.) talk about other ethnic groups when they aren't present? Be honest. I know when I go to get my hair cut the topic always comes up without fail. Maybe because the barbershops are the most segregated places in the US (aside from church, talk about hypocrisy). I have never seen a white person come to the barbershop I go to. Maybe its the fear of having a black power afro pic in your hair. I dunno. Race is widely discussed in there, some good some bad. Do you guys do this when you are amongst your own so to speak??

Talk about it dammit....

Like I said before I am in an industry where it doesn't matter about race, age or sex. Either you can do it or you can't and if you can't you won't be seen for long.

But, deeso, ethnic groups do talk about one another. Amongst the older generation sometimes the most outrageous derogatory stuff pops out of their mouths. Stuff that you would have thought disappeared decades ago. It can be quite shocking to me. It happens a lot down here but it also happens in Canada as well. However, it doesn't happen as much as Jesse Jackson would have you believe. We musicians never pull any punches on each other because we come from the basic honesty of the music. In my interaction with my freinds and colleagues of all races and ages, I am optimistic about our ability to exist and prosper amongst and with each other.

Affirmatiove action programs do have their place as far as I'm concerned. There are people alive today that knew a former slave so that period of US history isn't that far removed generationally speaking. Something has to be done to break the cycle of poverty for future generations.

Racism in the US walks hand in had with one's economic class. This can be evidenced by the fact that once a black family reaches the middle class they leave their enclaves and head for middle class suburbs etc. This leaves the disenfranchised without the "Jones' " to keep up with. But, middle class folk have more in common than with other middle class folk than they do with poor people so they group together.

That said, affirmative action programs can have a negative effect on the performance of institutions. For instance, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, one of the finest ensembles in the world, has recently started an "outreach fellowship" program for minorities. Now, it has never been claimed that the CSO is racist. Auditions are always held behind screens so you never know who or even what is auditioning. These are called blind auditions apporpriately enough. If you sound good you sound good. Well, now preference is being given to "non traditional minorities" to perform in the orchestra. It doesn't matter as much how you sound but rather how you look all of a sudden. The best sounding candidates were hired before but now artistic integrity is being compromised. The reasons for this are economic and political in my estimation.

Like symphony orchestras all over N. America, the CSO is starting to hurt financially because people can't sit still for 45 minutes to listen to music that needs to be actually "listened" to to be appreciated. They feel that they have to attempt to reach new audiences to expand their subscriber base. Whether it will work or not remains to be seen. However, politics is also important in this because Chicago is split about 50/50 black to white (although the growing Hispanic population is changing that traditional ratio). The CSO, for funding and political visibility purposes, feels it must not look like it is only trying to look after its traditional base: europeans. I don't think it will help in the long run because people are so overstimulated these days that the symphony orchestra and its emmence sublties is lost on the present generation who hear recorded "music" from crappy sound systems (spend $5000 on a "quality" sound system and it still sounds like crap, IMHO, compared to the real thing) all friggin day. Music is nothing that special anymore and even the CSO is being forced to adulterate their product to appeal to the masses. It won't work but then again I don't think most people today could care less anyway.

Ignorance is our main enemy. I liked "Barber Shop". It seemed realistic to me because those guys were all individuals speaking their minds. Reminded me very much of the interactions that happens in the "green rooms" amongst musicians of all hues all the time. Like I said before, I'm lucky to do what I do for a living.

[AZhitman]

Absolutely. Nothing I like to make fun of more than a group of Nelly-fied brothas hanging out with their weak-a$$ "bling-mobiles", trying to act all hard, with their damn pants falling down, stupid tags hanging off their ball caps... And what the hell is it with playing with yourself in public? Put your damn shirt down, nobody wants to see your starvin-a$$ belly anyway. And for God's sake, leave the "Mr. T Starter Kit" at home, boyeeee!

So yeah, I make fun - But some of my "crew" (do I have a crew?) is Black, so it makes it even more hilarious. Plus, we're pretty "equal opportunity" - We're just as likely to start something with a group of White guys acting stupid as well.

When you start taking who you are too seriously, that's when it ceases to become fun.

[BIONICQ45]

While I was in Mississippi as a child (1980-1984) there were certain things I accepted as the norm. Blacks went to the public schools and whites went to the "Academy". Blacks shopped at Flowers Grocery and whites shopped at Piggly Wiggly. Blacks ordered from the carry-out window of the Varsity Ice Cream stand/restaurant and whites went inside and sat down to eat. Blacks live south of Central Street and whites live north of it (literally and to this day). The theatre still has the staircase in the back leading to the upstairs loft used for "colored" viewing.

Even my white childhood friends from church thought that I was supposed to be able to run faster than them and that I possesed more physical strength. White teachers were amazed when I scored in the top percentile in reading and math and used proper grammar unlike the other Missisippians. They even mimicked the way I talked (having moved there from up north) and said I was trying to sound white (what an implication from a teacher).

That being said, I truly doubt most of you have any real life idea of the racial boundaries that used to exist in our free country and still do in some form. No doubt that the infrastrcutre was set up to oppress certain groups and the residue is still here. I don't know how to fix it but I don't think to wrongs make a right. Nobody owes me anything, what I have I got from the sweat of my brow.

Al Sharpton for President :aug2