The KA24de in my 1991 240sx SE is shot, so im in the process of looking for a new engine. A local place around here specializes in swapping out engines in 240's so thats probably where im going to go.
At first, I was wanting an sr20det, but the dude said there was a long wait for them.. possibly 2 months, and I dont have that amount of time. Although, they did have an rb20det in stock and ready to be installed..
I hadnt really done much research on these engines seeing as how i was intrested in an sr20det.
Although the rb20det seems like a reasonable option.
The guy showed me me a car with an rb20det, and man is it crammed in there. I realize i wont have an AC if i opted for it.
I came to you guys to see if its a good choice, since I really wouldnt know. I know it would be tough to find replacement parts if something were to happen to the engine, but i guess thats a risk you have to be willing to take.
So now, a couple of questions:
1. What are the horsepower/tourque rating on the engine? The guy told me around 250hp, is that right?
2. This may sound like a wierd question.. but I was just reading about the rb20 swap and some guy said you wouldnt have power steering afterwards. That sort of worries me. Dont the swap typically include power steering too?
3. The price after installation was around $2700, is that reasonable? For a professionally done job with a warranty.
4. Also, im not intrested in drifting, but i dont want my car to handle like ***. Ive reada lot about how the weight displacement is thrown off a bit by this engine because it sits so far forward.. is it really noticeable if you arent out there trying to drift?
Thats all I can think of for now.
Thanks in advance guys
Hey guys, a few questions about an RB20DET swap.
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Project240
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:42 pm
Re: Hey guys, a few questions about an RB20DET swap.
[quote=" eLEmEnT [/quote]Quote »I came to you guys to see if its a good choice, since I really wouldnt know.[/quote]This is the damn RB forum, what do you think we're gonna tell you? =P I would definitely say it's a good choice. The motor's a LOT of fun (I can tell you this after only driving my car once, right now it's sidelined with overheating problems), absolutely screams at 7000-7500RPM; SR20s won't do that without throwing a rocker arm off :pface Great pull up top, really nice sound, great motor overall. But I have a DISCLAIMER, and that is not to even consider this swap unless you have a lot of patience. Take the amount of time you expect the swap to take you, multiply it by 3, add 10 and that's about how much time it's actually going to take (add some money to your figures while you're at it, too). I've been working on my car on and off since September (engine, suspension, brakes, everything) and it's finally just about done.
Quote »1. What are the horsepower/tourque rating on the engine? The guy told me around 250hp, is that right?[/quote]That's a lie. RB25DET will give you 250HP stock, RB20 is 220.
Quote »2. This may sound like a wierd question.. but I was just reading about the rb20 swap and some guy said you wouldnt have power steering afterwards. That sort of worries me. Dont the swap typically include power steering too?[/quote]Another lie. Do a little bending of the steering lines, throw out the HICAS bull$h|t, plug and castrate the steering pump and voila, power steering. Search this forum for it, you'll find all sorts of detailed info on it.
Quote »3. The price after installation was around $2700, is that reasonable? For a professionally done job with a warranty.[/quote]If that's everything you need (i.e. you hand them your car and $2700, they hand it back with a running RB20DET and a warranty), then I'd say it's worth it if you don't want to get your hands dirty. I will tell you one thing: if you want to tune this car and do a lot with it and really get into it yourself, I recommend doing the swap yourself, maybe with a couple friends helping you out. You will learn SO much; I went into this swap knowing nothing except basic stuff, and now I feel like I can do anything with a car. Great learning experience, and there's plenty of info here to get you through it without serious incident.
Quote »4. Also, im not intrested in drifting, but i dont want my car to handle like ***. Ive reada lot about how the weight displacement is thrown off a bit by this engine because it sits so far forward.. is it really noticeable if you arent out there trying to drift?[/quote]SR20DET drivetrain weighs 493 pounds. RB25DET drivetrain weighs 720 pounds. The RB25 has .5 extra liters over the RB20 and a MUCH beefier transmission; I would estimate the RB20DET drivetrain to be right about 630 pounds or so. ~130 extra pounds up front?? Hell, extend your cables, stick the battery in the trunk, and you've practically made up for the uneven distribution already.
Quote »Thanks in advance guys [/quote]
NP
Normally I would be an a$$ and say SEARCH (which you should, it's extremely helpful), but I felt like typing an essay.
Quote »1. What are the horsepower/tourque rating on the engine? The guy told me around 250hp, is that right?[/quote]That's a lie. RB25DET will give you 250HP stock, RB20 is 220.
Quote »2. This may sound like a wierd question.. but I was just reading about the rb20 swap and some guy said you wouldnt have power steering afterwards. That sort of worries me. Dont the swap typically include power steering too?[/quote]Another lie. Do a little bending of the steering lines, throw out the HICAS bull$h|t, plug and castrate the steering pump and voila, power steering. Search this forum for it, you'll find all sorts of detailed info on it.
Quote »3. The price after installation was around $2700, is that reasonable? For a professionally done job with a warranty.[/quote]If that's everything you need (i.e. you hand them your car and $2700, they hand it back with a running RB20DET and a warranty), then I'd say it's worth it if you don't want to get your hands dirty. I will tell you one thing: if you want to tune this car and do a lot with it and really get into it yourself, I recommend doing the swap yourself, maybe with a couple friends helping you out. You will learn SO much; I went into this swap knowing nothing except basic stuff, and now I feel like I can do anything with a car. Great learning experience, and there's plenty of info here to get you through it without serious incident.
Quote »4. Also, im not intrested in drifting, but i dont want my car to handle like ***. Ive reada lot about how the weight displacement is thrown off a bit by this engine because it sits so far forward.. is it really noticeable if you arent out there trying to drift?[/quote]SR20DET drivetrain weighs 493 pounds. RB25DET drivetrain weighs 720 pounds. The RB25 has .5 extra liters over the RB20 and a MUCH beefier transmission; I would estimate the RB20DET drivetrain to be right about 630 pounds or so. ~130 extra pounds up front?? Hell, extend your cables, stick the battery in the trunk, and you've practically made up for the uneven distribution already.
Quote »Thanks in advance guys [/quote]
NP
Normally I would be an a$$ and say SEARCH (which you should, it's extremely helpful), but I felt like typing an essay.Well thanks a lot project240, thats sort of sets me at ease about the whole thing. I actually did search but couldnt find anything on power steering. Or the other questions right off bat.
For me to do this swap would be close to impossible. I simply do not know enough about the engine or engineS in general to undertake something like this. I know the basics of the engine, and some specs about it. But when it comes to true mechanical work, its just not my area. The guy gave me an estimate of $2700 installed, which sounded great to me.
Now, in a straight up race, which engine would outdo the other. A stock Sr20det or a stock Rb20det... I know the rb20 has an extra 15hp over the sr20, but its also a bit heavier. Any idea?
For me to do this swap would be close to impossible. I simply do not know enough about the engine or engineS in general to undertake something like this. I know the basics of the engine, and some specs about it. But when it comes to true mechanical work, its just not my area. The guy gave me an estimate of $2700 installed, which sounded great to me.
Now, in a straight up race, which engine would outdo the other. A stock Sr20det or a stock Rb20det... I know the rb20 has an extra 15hp over the sr20, but its also a bit heavier. Any idea?
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skillzilla
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:32 am
If your trepidatious about doing the swap yourself, think about it some more. This was my first motor swap, and it went fairly smoothly. There were a few nights of waiting for replies on this forum, but thats about it
Honestly, 2700 is pretty expensive. I was quoted 1300, and that seems about average (depending on the caliber of your shop and your location). Even 1300 seemed high to me, so I went ahead and did it myself. As Proj stated above I learned INVALULABLE knowledge about my engine, characteristics I would have never known about if I paid to have the swap done. Its paid off in spades, for example in situations where something minor goes south (like a heater hose), and you know exactly what you need to move to get to it, and know where the harness connects to the manifold in case you need to disconnect anything
Once again, just reconsider. I think 2700 in go-fast goodies will be worth it
As far as weight distro goes, I think the handling is the same, if not better, with the RB. My stock S13 tended to understeer a bit when cornering at high speeds, and the extra weight up frontkinda evened that out. I also unweighted some of the back BTW, so that also helped. A lot of mount kits move the engine a few inches back, which will even it out some, and the A/C system (if you choose to not run it) will save about 40 pounds under the hood.
Honestly, 2700 is pretty expensive. I was quoted 1300, and that seems about average (depending on the caliber of your shop and your location). Even 1300 seemed high to me, so I went ahead and did it myself. As Proj stated above I learned INVALULABLE knowledge about my engine, characteristics I would have never known about if I paid to have the swap done. Its paid off in spades, for example in situations where something minor goes south (like a heater hose), and you know exactly what you need to move to get to it, and know where the harness connects to the manifold in case you need to disconnect anything
Once again, just reconsider. I think 2700 in go-fast goodies will be worth it
As far as weight distro goes, I think the handling is the same, if not better, with the RB. My stock S13 tended to understeer a bit when cornering at high speeds, and the extra weight up frontkinda evened that out. I also unweighted some of the back BTW, so that also helped. A lot of mount kits move the engine a few inches back, which will even it out some, and the A/C system (if you choose to not run it) will save about 40 pounds under the hood.
Skillzilla, I think he meant $2700 including the motor. If not, then yeah, that's expensive.
If that does include the motor, then I would say that is a really good price for a professional installation.
However, if this dude does not even know about power steering, then there's NO WAY he's a professional RB installer. I mean think about it. IMHO, there are really only two professional installs you can get.... one from McKinney and one you do yourself using the info on this forum. McKinney is the only place that we know can do the wiring. There are a handful of guys on this forum that may also do it for you (and will do as good a job as McKinney), if you hit them up.
There are guys all the time saying that they found this or that shop that does "professional" RB swaps, and it never turns out to be true. I think there must 150 shops out there that read the SCC article on the RB25 (which did not include any wiring information, btw) and said, "Hey, we can do that." But they can't.
All the information you need is right here, on this forum. Use it. Don't get ripped.
Also, I would judge, based on the questions you are asking, that you would simply not be able to tell much of a difference in handling. And in a straight up race with an SR20, does it matter?
If that does include the motor, then I would say that is a really good price for a professional installation.
However, if this dude does not even know about power steering, then there's NO WAY he's a professional RB installer. I mean think about it. IMHO, there are really only two professional installs you can get.... one from McKinney and one you do yourself using the info on this forum. McKinney is the only place that we know can do the wiring. There are a handful of guys on this forum that may also do it for you (and will do as good a job as McKinney), if you hit them up.
There are guys all the time saying that they found this or that shop that does "professional" RB swaps, and it never turns out to be true. I think there must 150 shops out there that read the SCC article on the RB25 (which did not include any wiring information, btw) and said, "Hey, we can do that." But they can't.
All the information you need is right here, on this forum. Use it. Don't get ripped.
Also, I would judge, based on the questions you are asking, that you would simply not be able to tell much of a difference in handling. And in a straight up race with an SR20, does it matter?
The $2700 does include the motor, of course. Doing the swap myself would be near impossible, so its not an option. I dont have the tools, time, knowledge or place to do it.
I just asked about the sr20 vs the rb20 so I could get some sort of ballpark figure as to how the rb20 performs in such a case.
I never asked the guy about power steering, I just read that some guy that had his swap done didnt have it. Although the guy at the shop did tell me there would be no AC, but I figured that already.
And, about how many miles to the gallon does this motor get.. 18, 19?
I just asked about the sr20 vs the rb20 so I could get some sort of ballpark figure as to how the rb20 performs in such a case.
I never asked the guy about power steering, I just read that some guy that had his swap done didnt have it. Although the guy at the shop did tell me there would be no AC, but I figured that already.
And, about how many miles to the gallon does this motor get.. 18, 19?
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skillzilla
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:32 am
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skillzilla
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:32 am
Wow, a very hard decision indeed. Everything that I wanted to say has been said already. But let me reinforce on a few things:
A shop that will do it for that much $, I would check into it. How many RB swaps they've done? Get references. Even go see them. I've seen one and heard of few shops that charge so little/much and the job was hacked. Either way, it's a loss.
The PS and AC thing depends on you. If you really want it then you can do it. Some of us don't do it for our reasons. Mine is that I don't want anymore weight up front, want more HP, would rather sweat and struggle all thru out summer driving than wrenching one day still sweating and struggling in my garage.
My personal experience with the swap was that it was hard. Took me 5, 16 hour days. Only had one guy help me take things apart, the rest I was alone. The most I've done as far as mechanical is a (failed) clutch job. So I am no pro. But I bought the engine not knowing what to do with it. Had it sitting in my garage for a few months, studied it, researched this forum, and got it done.
What ever you decide, good luck! BTW, I think I got really lucky with the way everything worked out. I got a good engine and it's my daily driver now. I was prepared to buy a beater car just in case it didn't work. Also, I get 18 mpg on city and hwy with occasional stomps on the gas.
A shop that will do it for that much $, I would check into it. How many RB swaps they've done? Get references. Even go see them. I've seen one and heard of few shops that charge so little/much and the job was hacked. Either way, it's a loss.
The PS and AC thing depends on you. If you really want it then you can do it. Some of us don't do it for our reasons. Mine is that I don't want anymore weight up front, want more HP, would rather sweat and struggle all thru out summer driving than wrenching one day still sweating and struggling in my garage.
My personal experience with the swap was that it was hard. Took me 5, 16 hour days. Only had one guy help me take things apart, the rest I was alone. The most I've done as far as mechanical is a (failed) clutch job. So I am no pro. But I bought the engine not knowing what to do with it. Had it sitting in my garage for a few months, studied it, researched this forum, and got it done.
What ever you decide, good luck! BTW, I think I got really lucky with the way everything worked out. I got a good engine and it's my daily driver now. I was prepared to buy a beater car just in case it didn't work. Also, I get 18 mpg on city and hwy with occasional stomps on the gas.
Most people get about the same stock performance out of an SR20 as a RB20. So my guess is if you raced it would be a close way the entire race... the faster you went the more advantage the RB would have.
As far as 2700... if its a reputable place, and they will provide you with a warantee and everything it seems reasonable.. I just wonder abuot all the other costs... such as 2 electric fans, a walbro pump, maybe an FPR, etc etc... I take it alot of those costs arent factored in.
MPG seems to be a little different depending on each car's setup. I wuold expect around 20 in the city and closer to 25 on the hwy...
Murray
As far as 2700... if its a reputable place, and they will provide you with a warantee and everything it seems reasonable.. I just wonder abuot all the other costs... such as 2 electric fans, a walbro pump, maybe an FPR, etc etc... I take it alot of those costs arent factored in.
MPG seems to be a little different depending on each car's setup. I wuold expect around 20 in the city and closer to 25 on the hwy...
Murray
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rbsileighty
- Posts: 1694
- Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:10 am
- Car: 92 S13 Hatch w/ RB20 & 05 Audi S4 Avant 6MT
I would also look into a CA18 (especially if you are considering A/C)... but since they have an RB20 then it seems reasonable to keep it as an option.
Since they posses the motor... go through it and check the rubber lines to see how brittle they are (if you squeeze then and they feel like they are cracking), check the oil pan for dents, and see how brittle the plastic electrical connections are on the motor. I would not hesitate to ask them to pull the spark plugs too... check to see if they are clean/black/white.... this way you'll get a look into the condition of this motor. All of these things could cause annoying trouble down the road... I would not expect any swap not to have issues, but how this shop plans on taking care of these is an issue.
Don't forget to ask how they plan on fitting the motor (custom mounts... and who makes them). Things like front swaybar fitment... hood cutting... etc are all going to be dependant on which way it is installed. I would ask for a detailed list of what's included in their "swap install procedure" or whatever you want to call it. Ask what brands are being used as well... keep in mind they are not doing this install for free, but they should also not be cutting corners in order to make a profit (make sure if you're paying for cooling fans... you get fans... not old A/C fans etc).
Feel free to post the list they give you... I will look through it, as will others, to help see if you are getting a good value. There is nothing wrong in paying a little more for a well executed job.
Since they posses the motor... go through it and check the rubber lines to see how brittle they are (if you squeeze then and they feel like they are cracking), check the oil pan for dents, and see how brittle the plastic electrical connections are on the motor. I would not hesitate to ask them to pull the spark plugs too... check to see if they are clean/black/white.... this way you'll get a look into the condition of this motor. All of these things could cause annoying trouble down the road... I would not expect any swap not to have issues, but how this shop plans on taking care of these is an issue.
Don't forget to ask how they plan on fitting the motor (custom mounts... and who makes them). Things like front swaybar fitment... hood cutting... etc are all going to be dependant on which way it is installed. I would ask for a detailed list of what's included in their "swap install procedure" or whatever you want to call it. Ask what brands are being used as well... keep in mind they are not doing this install for free, but they should also not be cutting corners in order to make a profit (make sure if you're paying for cooling fans... you get fans... not old A/C fans etc).
Feel free to post the list they give you... I will look through it, as will others, to help see if you are getting a good value. There is nothing wrong in paying a little more for a well executed job.