It is still illegal in Turkey to refer to the Armenian Genocide as such or they will throw you in jail. I suspect we went after the wrong guys (in Iraq) and instead should have leveled Turkey. Oh and Rice can go to hell.

I'm fine with all of the above.

Love how we still think we need to make "reparations" for slavery, yet descendants of history's most oppressed and abused people are supposed to "get over it".

Worse, I think that 'get over it' implies something did happen and that you need to move on. The Turkish Republic has a law on the books that states if you even call the Armenian Genocide a genocide you insult the National Pride and can be thrown in jail. Why do they need to join the EU?

Sucks to have such a spineless POTUS and Administration. She's probably a "reparations apologist" herself.

Wait, what does Condoleezza Rice have to do with the current administration?

Also, where was this sort of righteous indignation from the Right when she was actually DOING these things during the GWB administration? Back then, she was practically "Saint Condi" and even you, Greg, seemed to vocally support her nomination as VP in 2008.

Also, you think that her stance and direction on these issues was somehow her "going rogue"? She did what she did because she was told to (or at least was not forbidden from).

Current administration shares her stance. That's all. BHO made big campaign claims on this issue, and hasn't delivered.

You're 100% right - I was unaware of / ignorant to her position on this issue then. If GWB shares / shared her sentiments, then he, too, can EAD.

Not amused.

^^ Fair enough. People can make excuses all day long about why Obama hasn't lived up to his foreign policy promises, but at the end of the day talk is cheap. I personally believe that he has been embattled on so many other fronts that this one just slipped on the priority list, but that's why a good executive delegates authority.

^ ROTFL I luz me some Serj Tankian.

And, in the spirit of this thread:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDdZlSsxbOQ[/youtube]

This song comes to mind. While not about the Armenian Genocide, it is about Condi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ4iz11wF50

Eh, her rationalization of it seems a bit contrived, but I'm honestly satisfied by, "It's really bad foreign policy right now; can we hold off for a bit? Our friends in the region can be counted on one mutilated hand, and it'd be great if we didn't get into meaningless fights over a policy that ended almost a century ago, mmkay?"

And I thought the same thing under GWB, as I wasn't entirely ignorant of the history of the thing.

One could say the same thing about her beloved NAACP.

IBCoupe wrote:"It's really bad domestic policy right now; can we hold off for a bit? Our surplus budget can be counted on one brokeass hand, and it'd be great if we didn't get into meaningless fights over a policy that ended almost a century ago, mmkay?"

FTFY.

"Meaningless" is relative.

I'm just glad (for her sake) that she didn't apply that retarded logic to our relationship with Israel.

I'm not seeing what it has to do with domestic policy. I really don't think any politician in the United States is so hard up for the Turkish-American vote that they'd actively get in Congress' way of passing a "Tsk, tsk" resolution. And I bet that, had anyone tried to pass a resolution in Congress that denounced Israeli wrongdoings, the Bush and Obama administrations would have gotten in the way of that, too.

And it's 100% a foreign policy matter.



From Incirlik Air Force Base's Wikipedia page:

On 19 August 2003, the first rotation of deployed KC-135 Stratotankers and airmen arrived at Incirlik to support various operations in response to the 11 September 2001 attacks as well as the post-invasion reconstruction of Iraq and the ensuing insurgency.

On 6 January 2004, more than 300 soldiers of what would become thousands transited through Incirlik as the first stop back to their home post, after spending almost a year in Iraq. Incirlik was part of what was described as the largest troop movement in U.S. history. Incirlik provided soldiers with a cot, warm location, entertainment and food for a few hours outside of a hostile war zone.

On 12 March 2004, the 39th Air Base Group deactivated, and the 39th Air Base Wing activated to provide the best mix of required support and, as new mission requirements emerge, to shoulder the burden and better contribute in the global war on terrorism.

And speaking of Israel, if the US Government decides to kick Turkey, not only will the Turkish Government probably be pissed enough to kick us off their air force base, but the Turkish populace might just be irked, too, becuase we're mostly mum on Israel's wrongdoings of a year ago, let alone a century ago. And they might be inclined not to give us a friendly Turkish Government for a while.

Israel can eat the d*** right after Condi is done.

You know, if we WERE NOT in the Empire building business places like Turkey, Diego Garcia, Kyrgyzstan and ... would actually not matter as much in regards to Foreign Policy.
To be honest, every so many years someone (typically from California) proposes legislation to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide and for the sake of ‘National Security’ either due to the Cold War or Global War on Terror, the legislation gets tabled. Meanwhile, Turkish forces keep invading sovereign Iraqi airspace or territory to inflict its campaign against the Kurdish people. When will the world wake up and recognize that Turkey has been killing/oppressing Cypriots, Anatolian Greeks, Kurds and Armenians. And stop turning a blind eye to what Turkey has done/been doing for the sake of our National Security?

All I heard from Isaac's post is a bunch of kowtowing to people who ACT friendly but don't give a rat's a$$ about us. Sorry, I'm not in the diplomacy or a$$-kissing business... I believe in accountability, honesty, and integrity.

Too bad our politicians have sold their souls for votes. Whores.

IBCoupe wrote:not only will the Turkish Government probably be pissed enough to kick us off their air force base...

They can try.

Or better yet, maybe we say, "Piss on the whole region, we have issues here at home." I'm not advocating bullying. I'm advocating accountability. And a rejection of game-playing.

But noooo. Keep defending people who hate us. Keep fearing their anger. Keep thinking your bent-over "diplomacy" impresses them. I'm glad you weren't making policy decisions in 1939.

Greg,
I suspect that now that we don’t have to park Nuclear Missile systems in Turkey pointed at the Soviet Union and fly Reconnaissance missions, the role of Turkey has really diminished since the end of the Cold War. Furthermore the United States has been developing a relationship with Bulgaria, Romania and Central Asia.

PETA wants them to change their name to "Tofurkey".

The AFB in Turkey is mostly for support for our efforts in Afghanistan. "Empire building?" Y'all remember why we went there in the first place, right?



Now, I wasn't a huge fan of invading Afghanistan at the time, but let's not succumb to revisionist history, okay?

And it's fine if you don't want to "kowtow" to foreign interests. You can go all isolationist. You're entitled to that desire. But in the event that we do get dragged into foreign conflicts or that we do decide that there's something of value to be found in keeping an eye and ear on the world around us, know that burning your bridges makes crossing the river that much harder.

Our military involvement in Turkey far preceded 9/11. It was part of our missile-shield strategy during the cold war.

That's also true. But that's not the period of time that Ms. Rice is talking about. Makes fine sense that the reason it's a bad idea to withdraw might have little to do with the reason you got there in the first place. Kinda like Iraq and Afghanistan.

It should also be noted that Diego Garcia, Anderson AFB in Guam, K2 in Uzbekistan and Manas in Kyrgyzstan were the primary bases used for Afghanistan. Now Turkey was critical to invade northern Iraq early in the war.

Cold_Zero wrote:It should also be noted that Diego Garcia, Anderson AFB in Guam, K2 in Uzbekistan and Manas in Kyrgyzstan were the primary bases used to launch forces into Afghanistan. Now Turkey was critical to invade northern Iraq early in the war.

FTFY

Also worthy of note: we couldn't always rely on those bases to be there.

IBCoupe wrote:The AFB in Turkey is mostly for support for our efforts in Afghanistan. "Empire building?" Y'all remember why we went there in the first place, right?



Now, I wasn't a huge fan of invading Afghanistan at the time, but let's not succumb to revisionist history, okay?

I never implied that Afghanistan was an unjust war. But when you take a look around and look at all the Army, Marine Corp, Navy and Air Force bases that we maintain all around the world for World War II, Korean Conflict, Cold War, Chinese containment, Global War on Terror, the Afghanistan War and Iraq War (which is winding down). Not to mention our Protection of Shipping (specifically Persian Gulf bases to protect against Iranian attacks) and Peace Keeping efforts. We now bombed the s*** out of Libya and rattling our sabre against Iran. You cant help but to think that either we are a gigantic world policeman or building a Empire to preserve our economic prominence. Either way, if we werent in this business we wouldn't need that base in Turkey.

But since you mentioned it. You do know that 9-11 was payback for Osama bin Laden being butt hurt because the Saudi King did not choose a Mujaheddin style defense of the Kingdom and purge the Iraqis from Kuwait. The King instead picked the United States (West) to defend the Kingdom/run the Iraqis out of Kuwait and thus the bad blood started. It didnt help that we haven't left. Fast forward to 2001, Al Qaeda kills Ahmad Shah Massoud, the leader of the Northern Alliance as payback for the Taliban turning a blind eye to the attack in NYC. Can you see maybe from their (middle eastern) eyes that this all looks like the United States trying to build an empire in the Middle East?

I'm not saying Afghanistan was a just war. I'm saying it's a bit of a stretch to call it "Empire Building," regardless of how some folks on the receiving end saw it.

While I dont think the specific War in Afghanistan is an example of Empire Building, because it is truly a defensive war (for the attached on 9-11), it can be understood that the reason for 9-11 was a result of our perceived or actual empire building in the Middle East. And 9-11 is what prompted us to attack/invade Afghanistan.

But back on track. Until the Republic of Turkey acknowledges the Armenian Genocide, like the rest of the world, they are NOT a friend of the United States.

Why? What's one got to do with the other?

Your absolutely right, we have gotten to the point in our society that we no longer hold any values or principals (except for that of materialism and narcissism) that we can ally ourselves with unrepentant murderous peoples/countries. That is all.

Cold_Zero wrote:Your absolutely right, we have gotten to the point in our society that we no longer hold any values or principals (except for that of materialism and narcissism) that we can ally ourselves with unrepentant murderous peoples/countries. That is all.

That is, indeed, all.