Help with 1992 Q45 with a seized motor

[patReily]

Hi all,I’m working on a 1992 Q45, 265,000 miles with a seized motor. I have 30+ years of auto repair experience. But today, I only do work for people down on their luck, who can’t afford to pay. Most have point-A to point-B car but one of the guys I help has a Q45 he driven for the last 2 years. I first worked on the car about 6 months ago when he began complaining of performance problems. Under the hood, it was obvious this car had seen a lot of work that was less than professional (broken connectors, missing bolts, bad patch work) attention. The TBS connector had failed so I cleaned the contacts and the car was back in action. Shortly after, the fuel pump failed and I replaced the pump. When I completed the job it was obvious that the engine was running rich and a little down on power but at 265K mile and no money you live with less than perfect.After a week, the owner told me that gas mileage was awful. I thought, It is a heavy car with a V8 motor but I took a look at it anyway. I thought maybe a fuel injector has failed open. When I removed the plenum, to my surprise, the #1 runner was filled with fuel. That must be 8oz! All the other runners look normal. I bought him an injector, mopped up the gas from the runner with a rag, dealt with more than a few bad hoses under the plenum and put it all back together. When I went to crank it, it didn’t go a full revolution before dull stopping sound and the starter would turn no more. I pulled the plugs, 4 were very rich, 3 were so so and the #1 plug looked brand new, out of the box ( well washed I assume). I’m guessing that #1 is seized. With the belts relaxed, I am unable to turn the crank, in either direction, with an 18 inch bar using moderate force. At this point, I am reluctant to use greater force before getting a little advice from resident gurus. Spotting through the plug holes I can see that #2 & #3 are near the top of the stroke, #4 & #5 near the bottom. None of them had standing fuel in them.For the less experienced: It is not the starter, torque converter, belt, etc. It’s a seized motor.With that as background, I’m open to suggestion. I think she may be dead but I’m hoping someone may have some sage advice. If not, my friend has a great donor / parts car for someone.Thanks,Pat

[qship96]

Hydrolocked and trashed motor. The runner full of fuel you mopped out most likely also had that runners cylinder full of fuel----cranking motor tried to compress it, and BAM....bent and broken parts. A trained professional should have known to check cylinder for fuel, especially when the intake runner is overflowing!!!!!!!

[patReily]

Thanks for the reply.Broken parts - maybe but I don't think so. A bent rod, maybe. Remember #1 is not near the top of the stroke, #3 is.If it were full of fuel halfway through the stroke that would equal about 350cc (280+ combustion chamber) add that to the 200cc+ I mopped out of the runner. Could a failed injector dump 550cc+ fuel in 20 seconds? It seems unlikely to me. Further, there was a 3 day gap between the fuel cleanup and the new injector install. I think a 265K mile motor would have trouble holding anythink above the rings that long. Also, the piston top was not wet with fuel when I pulled the plug.Could 12 oz of fuel drain past the rings into the case before I pulled the plug - I guess but the oil looks and smell ok, not great but not gas fouled either.

I'm wondering if the rings could gaul the fuel washed cylinder bad enough to bind the piston.What ever happened, I'm wondering what may be the logical next steps to see if I can free the motor.Is there a way to visually determine if #1 is in the compression stroke or exhaust stroke? I am assuming that the intake valve was closed since the runner was holding fuel for several hours. before I pulled the plenum.If not visual, I can do a leak down.

[Infinitiguy19]

Did you pressure test the fuel rails before starting the car to make sure you didn't pinch an injector?

Welcome to NICO.

[patReily]

By pinch, do you mean getting the o-rings poorly seated?I didn't find any nicks on the lower o-ringPressure seemed goodbut i didn't take a reading. After replaceing the injector, I turned the key to cycle the pump. I could hear the pressure regulator load up as well as the pump bog down and hold Return flow at the line near the filter also seemed good.

It was obvious someone has been under the plenum before. Three Injectors were each missing one of the retaining bolts but I saw no signs of leaking at the top o-ring.

I must say I applaud those of you who do your own work under the hood of these older Q45. I have worked on many differnt makes and models and I can say the plumbing under that plenum is in a class all by itself.

[Infinitiguy19]

Yea I meant poorly seated, But I take it you didn't hook up a fuel pressure gauge in-line to read the fuel pressure when the pump primes for 5 seconds right?

It should maintain at least 43 PSI for 10 MIN, anything less and you have a leaker.

Trust me I know how hard it is to work on the engines thats why i like solving probelms with other peoples cars, till I grow the balls to work on my car.

[patReily]

I am used to taping a schrader valve for a reading and lacked a setup to do an inline reading. I can still fashion something and take a reading.

My original suggestion to the owner is still the same. Alive or dead, sell the car. Someone with little mechanical ability and little money for service is likely to neglect proper care and in the end both the owner and the Q45 will suffer.

[maxnix]

My original suggestion to the owner is still the same. Alive or dead, sell the car. Someone with little mechanical ability and little money for service is likely to neglect proper care and in the end both the owner and the Q45 will suffer.

These are words of wisdom. This is not a car for those who do not want to invest the time to learn about it nor have the money and some skill to maintain it. These people are much better off (and so are you!) sticking with something much simpler and more basic.

They usually don't understand there is no discount beyond the price they paid based on the deferred maintenance. Parts and labor are still priced for what it is, a$65K imported luxury V8 in today's dollars.

[patReily]

Most of the cars I work on today were made in the last 15 years. My personal cars are all from 1974 and earlier. From extreme exotic to pedestrian, in contrast with newer cars, they were all designed with some priority placed on ease of service and maintenance. And they generally demand more maintenance. Now, and I consider the Q45 no exception, the priority seems to be original buyer experience and easy of factory assembly. Maintenance takes a back seat. But to the matter at hand, I’d like to try counter rotating the crank to free the motor. Can anyone tell me if it is safe to counter rotate a Q45 motor?

[maxnix]

I would say if the crank can't rotate counter rotating it won't accomplish a thing.

One has to realize the VH45DE was designed to be service regularly by a knowledgeable technician with small hands. Once studied and understood, there is a subtle and elegant purpose to its design and systematic maintenance. However, it was designed for Japanese executives, not down and out third owners who are trying to extend its life as a beater.

Might send your guy over to T-3 and save your time and effort for more achievable goals with higher rewards.

[patReily]

I agree with the T-3 suggestion. I'm about equal distance from each location. For this situation is one location better than another?ThanksPat

[Infinitiguy19]

You can try calling each one and seeing who they have there that is qualified to work on the Q, but I talked to Ty but I forget which one he is at.

But we had another member hydrolock the engine and he basically bought a JDM engine and used that.

But I wish you luck.

[Trumpkin]

I'm still at a loss, how does one hydrolock a motor by servicing the fuel system? I have replaced many a injector and have never had an issue. Maybe I got lucky!?

[patReily]

My too, 30 plus years and this is a first.

That's why if thought I'd ask the group. I don't see much value in tearing it down for any reason other than autopsy.

I'd like to tell myself the damage was done when the old injector was filling the runner but I don't know. Based on his description, he had lilkely driven it 300+ miles in this condition. At the very least, I'll do a leak down on it tomorrow to determin if #1 is in the compresson stroke. What type of cylinder sleeve does this motor use?

[Q451990]

I'm still at a loss, how does one hydrolock a motor by servicing the fuel system? I have replaced many a injector and have never had an issue. Maybe I got lucky!?

It's easy with the side-feed injector design. The injector sits in the rail with fuel flowing around it. The upper o-ring keeps gas from squirting out from under the retainer cap, and the bottom one keeps the fuel in the rail rather than squirting around the injector and into the runner. So if that bottom o-ring is not seated properly - the fuel pump can fill that runner in a matter of seconds. One should always replace the o-ring with a new one, and lubricate it with motor oil to ensure that it seats well.

To the original poster, you're right... this is the wrong car for this owner. You are a super guy for trying though... a pro bono plenum job is above and beyond the call of duty for anyone! If you wanted to try pulling the head on that side you might be able to repair the bent rod, but that is a lot of work... and you would probably get into chain guides at the same time. I think it should be the end of the line for this Q, unless it's in great cosmetic condition.

I am not certain, but I don't think the Q uses a cylinder sleeve... I think it's just bored into the aluminum... not sure on that though. There's no FSM (factory service manual) available online for the '92, but the '94 FSM should be pretty close in terms of the mechanical parts of the engine you're dealing with. http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/

Heath

[goody90q45]

It's easy with the side-feed injector design. The injector sits in the rail with fuel flowing around it. The upper o-ring keeps gas from squirting out from under the retainer cap, and the bottom one keeps the fuel in the rail rather than squirting around the injector and into the runner. So if that bottom o-ring is not seated properly - the fuel pump can fill that runner in a matter of seconds......

And to add to what Heath said....when one o-ring goes, even with the engine off, the contents of the entire fuel rail can drain into the cylinder overnight. With the engine running I had the entire bank of 4 cylinders fill with gas and had fuel pouring out the cat and the plenum to the airbox. It all happened in a few seconds but somehow I didn't bend a rod.

One should always replace the o-ring with a new one, and lubricate it with motor oil to ensure that it seats well.

Why am I the only one that likes to slobber the injector and cup with petroleum jelly (vaseline) instead of motor oil?

[maxnix]

I think Dixon made some comment on the sleeve design when he changed his. Thought it was cast in.

[patReily]

I appreciate all the advice and knowledge. When I pull the old injector, the lower o-ring was proper positioned and had no nicks but I can see how if that seal fails you can have a catastrophe.I did use new o-rings with the new (rebuilt) injector. I lubed both rings with grease (a healthy dose but no slobbering ).As for the condition: the body is clean and straight. The off-white paint shows a little age but it’s still presentable. The bronze two tone needs attention. Tan Leather front seat are past done. The transmission, diff, brakes and suspension all seem to be very good. The power features all work with the exception o f the trunk release. I did get a chance to bench test the latch with 12volts and it works fine (must be a bad switch or wiring). As you would expect the rear, bulb sensor died but the lights all work as intended. The BBS wheels are functions but really show their age. I sure a Q45 expert would have other important things to look for but that is my quick read. If anyone is interested or can suggest the best way to market, I am sure the owner would appreciate. I think an enthusiast capable of doing the engine removal and replacement would find the greatest value. I have many people who need my help just so they can get to work each day. It would be hard for me to justify leaving them on hold while I get this drivable again. Plus, for the price of a good used motor, I can put him in a reliable grocery getter. Once again, thanks for all the input.Also did I hear right, theses are cast –in sleeves?Pat

[maxnix]

Not certain about the sleeves. Memory is a sieve.

[Trumpkin]

So I quess one should evacuate the fuel rails/system BEFORE any injector work is done?

[goody90q45]

So I quess one should evacuate the fuel rails/system BEFORE any injector work is done?

Step #1- Pull fuel pump fuse and crank engine for about 10 seconds.

[maxnix]

Then remove gas cap.

[texasoil]

I think the timing chain jumped and the engine is toast. It would NOT seize like described.