I recorded a couple brief snippits of my consult data and need help reading it. I'm kinda confused because the o2 sensors seem to counteract one another between the L and R. One goes up, one goes down when rpm's increase. I believe I have a bad inj too but the wierd thing is the CAS reading. It seems to drop signal for a frame or two every now and then. Maybe it needs cleaned too?
Anyways if someone would like to take a stab at it send me an email. In the meantime I'll try to find a site to host the files.
Help deciphering consult data
-
craigztoyz
- Posts: 727
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:19 pm
- Car: lots of unique hot rods, and customs, with modern engines, and a good truck to pull the trailer.
Re: Help deciphering consult data (T45)
If one o2 is going up and one down, could be due to --- if you have a bad injector, and it is reading that bank lean, it could overcompusate and add too much to the other bank. Just a thought. Probably not too helpful.
I'd chase the injector issue.
I'd chase the injector issue.
-
craigztoyz
- Posts: 727
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:19 pm
- Car: lots of unique hot rods, and customs, with modern engines, and a good truck to pull the trailer.
Re: (T45)
AGHHHHH now that is the answer. For fun, you could swap o2's side, but probably a P.I.T.A.
That log file doesn't really provide anything I can understand in text format. Maybe if you open them with a log viewer it may show some good info. tmorgan, if you rename them with a .txt extension you might be able to open them, they are just text files.
I haven't really used Scan Tech for logging. You might want to download ECUTalk and give it a try, that's the one I log with most of the time and it's free. From my experience, the O2 sensors go up and down rapidly and not necessarily at the same time. They are completely independent of each other while in closed loop. Now if you open the throttle enough for it to go into open loop it should go rich and both banks should increase to .8v or more.
If you want to swap O2's left and right and you are comfortable with wiring just swap the inputs at the ECU for the two O2 sensors. That would be simple.
Here's one of my log files imported and formatted with Excel. This is with ECUTalk and I marked it up so I could quickly see the data I was looking for.
Modified by qsiguy at 7:38 PM 5/17/2008
I haven't really used Scan Tech for logging. You might want to download ECUTalk and give it a try, that's the one I log with most of the time and it's free. From my experience, the O2 sensors go up and down rapidly and not necessarily at the same time. They are completely independent of each other while in closed loop. Now if you open the throttle enough for it to go into open loop it should go rich and both banks should increase to .8v or more.
If you want to swap O2's left and right and you are comfortable with wiring just swap the inputs at the ECU for the two O2 sensors. That would be simple.
Here's one of my log files imported and formatted with Excel. This is with ECUTalk and I marked it up so I could quickly see the data I was looking for.
Modified by qsiguy at 7:38 PM 5/17/2008
Ok, the vid is uploaded now. I'm not sure how much data you guys can gather from it but it's a start I guess. The misfire/detonation is really noticable in the vid, a lot more than in person. I also forgot and had the ecu in valet mode so 3k is all it went up to. Before in active test mode when I kill injector 2 it seems to have little to no effect versus the other injectors on the R bank.
What you can't see is the the cas/rpm reading drops off erraticly from 2000 to anywhere between 300-100 and one time I saw 13 when the playback is slowed down.
I'm downloading ecutalk as I write this so I'll post a log of that when I get it. Hopefully the crappy pop-up filled hosting site I chose will host it properly.
I don't even want to run it anymore in fear of catastrophic failure before I even get to run it for a day...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t84XxYJMCkM
What you can't see is the the cas/rpm reading drops off erraticly from 2000 to anywhere between 300-100 and one time I saw 13 when the playback is slowed down.
I'm downloading ecutalk as I write this so I'll post a log of that when I get it. Hopefully the crappy pop-up filled hosting site I chose will host it properly.
I don't even want to run it anymore in fear of catastrophic failure before I even get to run it for a day...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t84XxYJMCkM
I'm not really seeing anything obvious in the video. With no load on it the O2 sensor will just swing up and down as they are in the video. I didn't catch what you are talking about with the RPM either. The ECUTalk log will be much more helpful. If you aren't sure how to format the log file in Excel you are welcome to email the file to me and I can do it for you.
-
BigMACKenzie
- Posts: 986
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 5:52 am
- Car: 1993 Nissan 240SX convertible
Re: Help deciphering consult data (T45)
as far as I know the o2 sensor does that as a normal part of operation. it constantly oscillates back in forth adjusting between rich and lean with the median hovering near the perfect stoichiometric ratio. its 17 point something if i remember correctly.
-
Chrispy300
- Posts: 405
- Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:27 pm
- Car: 1993 J-Spec 300ZX 5 Speed Slicktop
- Location: Brisbane Australia
- Contact:
Re: Help deciphering consult data (BigMACKenzie)
Stoich is 14.7
O2's will osciallate independantly of each other to a certain extent, but if you back off or boot it they should go lean or rich respectively.
O2's will osciallate independantly of each other to a certain extent, but if you back off or boot it they should go lean or rich respectively.
Ok, I took the data and imported it into Excel. I made graph charts for two of the log files for the O2/RPM readings which I'll post below. They really don't look bad. At low RPMs the O2's will not really do much and the readings aren't really that important. When the RPMs came up on the first log file the O2's started oscillating as they should. The 2nd and third logs you were just idling the entire time so the O2's don't do much. Logs 1 and 2 don't look like any problems to me...
Now log #3 had some strange anomalies. You added the water temp gauge which was good and there are a few readings in there that spike in the negative. It's reading 78-79*C the entire time but occasionally it drops 128* down to -50* or -49*C. Also, the battery voltage drops down to less than 1 volt a few times and ~1-4 volts several other times. These are very odd readings.
It may be useful to add all the gauges you can and take another log and raise the RPMs up a few times as high as you are comfortable doing. Your valet bin file could be doing something funky as well. If you have a stock bin I think I'd try that and do a log. Where did you get the tune you are using?
Now log #3 had some strange anomalies. You added the water temp gauge which was good and there are a few readings in there that spike in the negative. It's reading 78-79*C the entire time but occasionally it drops 128* down to -50* or -49*C. Also, the battery voltage drops down to less than 1 volt a few times and ~1-4 volts several other times. These are very odd readings.
It may be useful to add all the gauges you can and take another log and raise the RPMs up a few times as high as you are comfortable doing. Your valet bin file could be doing something funky as well. If you have a stock bin I think I'd try that and do a log. Where did you get the tune you are using?
I also made PDF's for the complete 3 log files for your review, they are pretty long. The third one is the most interesting and shows some kind of problem, note the battery voltage and the water temp. I marked a few of the values that were "off" in red until I got tired of doing it, that's a long log file. Turn on all the available gauges and do a shorter log but rev the engine to various RPMs a few times. That may tell us more.
http://www.c4caraudio.com/tech...1.pdfh ... ch...3.pdf
Modified by qsiguy at 1:10 AM 5/18/2008
http://www.c4caraudio.com/tech...1.pdfh ... ch...3.pdf
Modified by qsiguy at 1:10 AM 5/18/2008
Re: (qsiguy)
Looking at the charts I think your problem might be with a connector or broken wire, it looks like your o2 feed is going open circuit for a split second every once and a while... food for thought any way..
I'll get a better log for you. Those were my first so please excuse my noobness. I appreciate the help.
The ECU is a nico, i think one of roberts last. I have a 4 way with valet, II, III and a boost map. I'll try a different map.
I am getting a knock sensor code I believe from a bad inj. I could have a bad KS or harness but I ohmed them before and they seemed ok. Maybe I'm stuck until I get my fuel issues fixed.
The ECU is a nico, i think one of roberts last. I have a 4 way with valet, II, III and a boost map. I'll try a different map.
I am getting a knock sensor code I believe from a bad inj. I could have a bad KS or harness but I ohmed them before and they seemed ok. Maybe I'm stuck until I get my fuel issues fixed.
Have you tried that boost map yet? I have a copy of a NICO 4 way bin except it has stock, II, III and boost. My car would hardly run on that boost program. It has some errors in it. I think it may be mostly because of the TTP Max values. He has them getting lower as the TP goes up, not sure why. Could be that mine is just messed up but just watch it if you try that program. The II and III looked good, not sure about the valet. If you have a stock one available it would be a good idea to try it and compare. Is your ECU a 16 bit, '94+ or is it the 90-93 8 bit version?
If you have a bad knock sensor it's difficult to get an accurate log, it'll be running on the knock maps and I'd be curious how Robert made those maps on the valet program.
If you have a bad knock sensor it's difficult to get an accurate log, it'll be running on the knock maps and I'd be curious how Robert made those maps on the valet program.
It's an 8-bit I believe. I sent him a tcs ecu and I believe I got a non-tcs unit back, that's what I asked for anyways.
I haven't tried the boost map at all. It actually seemed to run better on II and III than valet. It's detonating like mad, 210-220 temps are just too much for the amount of timing in those maps and even the valet map pings. I'm pretty sure the KS are doing their job, there's so much knocking going on it's impossible to rule them bad. They ohmed good IIRC.
I haven't tried the boost map at all. It actually seemed to run better on II and III than valet. It's detonating like mad, 210-220 temps are just too much for the amount of timing in those maps and even the valet map pings. I'm pretty sure the KS are doing their job, there's so much knocking going on it's impossible to rule them bad. They ohmed good IIRC.
Have you opened up the ECU? What chip or chips does it take and how many? Take a photo is you can of the chip mod. If you need a stock BIN I can burn one for you if your ECU takes 28 pin EPROMs. You may have AM29F010S chips tho, if so I can't help you. I don't have the equipment to burn them. Maybe Wes could send you a stock program on a chip and you could swap it. I'm not sure what equipment he's got.
Are you sure your thermostat is working properly? How about your base timing? Next time you do a log make sure you activate more gauges. Also, for the timing, if it looks way too advanced there is an option in the ECUTalk setup to offset the timing by -35* so it reads properly, this is required on the Q45 so I assume you will need to do this as well. Also, change it to F instead of C for the temp readings unless that's what you want...
I just compared the stock bin with the Nico II and III that I have and the III is way more advanced in the timing than the stock all the way across the map in most blocks. The NICO II program is actually the same as stock timing up to about a load value of 40 or more. In the logs you send the car was just parked and the RPMs never went that high. If you were running the NICO II program I'm pretty sure you would have never reached a load/TP of 40 or higher. This is assuming the programs you have are the same as my copies. I'd check your base timing. Maybe even just retard it a few degrees and see how it effects things.
Are you sure your thermostat is working properly? How about your base timing? Next time you do a log make sure you activate more gauges. Also, for the timing, if it looks way too advanced there is an option in the ECUTalk setup to offset the timing by -35* so it reads properly, this is required on the Q45 so I assume you will need to do this as well. Also, change it to F instead of C for the temp readings unless that's what you want...
I just compared the stock bin with the Nico II and III that I have and the III is way more advanced in the timing than the stock all the way across the map in most blocks. The NICO II program is actually the same as stock timing up to about a load value of 40 or more. In the logs you send the car was just parked and the RPMs never went that high. If you were running the NICO II program I'm pretty sure you would have never reached a load/TP of 40 or higher. This is assuming the programs you have are the same as my copies. I'd check your base timing. Maybe even just retard it a few degrees and see how it effects things.
I am running the stock Z - N/A radiator. It's little. I am trying to get a koyo from a guy that needs repaired. Once I get that in i'll be able to diagnose further. I think it also needs to be driven and broken in some more. It seems the more I drive it the better it gets.
I am running dual 12" puller fans but even with the heat on it's not enough to cool the vh. The koyo is a monster, that's my ticket.
Also, the timing in the consult reads a steady 50 at idle. I need to get it running cooler before I check to see how much it's really off on the crank. Even though the ecu has it at 50 (15) there's no telling if the CAS is set correctly or if chain stretch has induced the timing a couple degrees out.
Modified by T45 at 7:36 AM 5/19/2008
I am running dual 12" puller fans but even with the heat on it's not enough to cool the vh. The koyo is a monster, that's my ticket.
Also, the timing in the consult reads a steady 50 at idle. I need to get it running cooler before I check to see how much it's really off on the crank. Even though the ecu has it at 50 (15) there's no telling if the CAS is set correctly or if chain stretch has induced the timing a couple degrees out.
Modified by T45 at 7:36 AM 5/19/2008
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: (T45)
For short acceleration bursts, coolant VOLUME is more important than radiator size, since the coolant takes longer to heat up and the radiator cannot single pass it lower than 15F in 90F ambient.
MB and BMW V8 hold 14 quarts of coolant vs 10.8 in Q. Developing a way to hold 3 more quarts is probably more useful.
As to O2 oscillating, ecu calculates one bank at a time then does other things things before coming back to other bank because O2 take 50 millisecs to react to smooth out 6-8 revolutions.
MB and BMW V8 hold 14 quarts of coolant vs 10.8 in Q. Developing a way to hold 3 more quarts is probably more useful.
As to O2 oscillating, ecu calculates one bank at a time then does other things things before coming back to other bank because O2 take 50 millisecs to react to smooth out 6-8 revolutions.
The 50 is +35* over actual but I think you already know this. ECUTalk gives you the ability to offset this so it reads correctly. From what I understand the consult will not read the actual base timing. It will always read 15* as base. You have to check the actual base timing with a timing light. There is a special tool you need to perform this, which I don't have. A bit of searching will help I'm sure. I've see it posted a few times.
I still find it hard to believe it would be overheating due to the size/volume of your current radiator when you are really not even putting a load on the motor.
I still find it hard to believe it would be overheating due to the size/volume of your current radiator when you are really not even putting a load on the motor.
Well it runs at a steady 180 at idle all day long. As soon as I start driving it the temp creeps up and tops out around 220 consistently and doesn't want to come back down.
The NA rad is really small though. The koyo has a much larger capacity as well as double pass. I am also re-routing my coolant lines with some silicone elbows and 1.25" brass tubing instead of the contraption I have now. It should add another couple quarts or so to the capacity just in the lines.
The O2 explanations make a lot more sense now. Thanks tech!
As for timing I have read on how to read it correctly and will check it as soon as I get the cooling resolved. I understand about the 50*/15* coorelation. The consult will only tell you what it's setting the timing at, not where it's actually at.
The NA rad is really small though. The koyo has a much larger capacity as well as double pass. I am also re-routing my coolant lines with some silicone elbows and 1.25" brass tubing instead of the contraption I have now. It should add another couple quarts or so to the capacity just in the lines.
The O2 explanations make a lot more sense now. Thanks tech!
As for timing I have read on how to read it correctly and will check it as soon as I get the cooling resolved. I understand about the 50*/15* coorelation. The consult will only tell you what it's setting the timing at, not where it's actually at.