i am looking into getting a new set of wheels somtime in the near future, and im trying to figure out what diameter would be best. Initially, i was just going to go with the smallest wheel that would still fit over my brakes because of less unsprung weight, cheaper tires, yadda yadda. But i have been reading about plus sizing (increasing the size of the wheel, decreasing the size of the sidewall) and how this keeps the gear ratio / spedo the same, and eliminates sidewall flex. Now i know what sidewall flex is, but i have hardly ever heard somone say like "oh i crashed cause the sidewall flexed too much" or anything. is this just a ricer justification for putting bigger wheels on a car? or is there actually a benefit to increasing the wheel size and decreasing the sidewall?
so basically what im asking is what are the pros and cons of smaller wheel with larger sidewall, vs. larger wheel with smaller sidewall?
help choosing wheel size - plus sizing, low pro tires?
Taller sidewall = softer ride, less feel of the road.Smaller sidewall = firmer ride, more in touch with the road.
I didn't really believe in the better feel talk about low profile tires until I went through a curve in 2 (similar) cars, 1 with low prfile and 1 with "normal" tires. At the peak/apex of the turn you could feel the taller sidewall tire kind of sit over as the sidewall flexed. All in all, you probably would never notice in daily driving.
All assuming maintaining the overall diameter of the tire, and both can be done too much.
I didn't really believe in the better feel talk about low profile tires until I went through a curve in 2 (similar) cars, 1 with low prfile and 1 with "normal" tires. At the peak/apex of the turn you could feel the taller sidewall tire kind of sit over as the sidewall flexed. All in all, you probably would never notice in daily driving.
All assuming maintaining the overall diameter of the tire, and both can be done too much.
The real world daily benefit is marginal at best.
The shorter sidewall will be stiffer. Less flex means, among other things, harsh ride and greater transmission of road characteristics(expansion joints, ruts, bumps, etc)
There's many variables. Reinforced vs. non reinforced sidewalls, calculating your proper PSI for the shorter tire with new, differing load index.... measured against what feels right, and what delivers better performance, and measure that against whether there really is any benefit at all..? other than bling factor.
Generally, the smaller sized(OEM
) wheels and accompanying tires are lighter. Wheel response is key for cars, since heavy wheel/tire assy negatively affects acceleration, braking, and suspension travel rates.
Smaller will cost less, weigh less, attract less unwanted attention, perform equal to or better... if you outfit the car with good tires.
16" alloys with 205/55-16 Azenis or check TireRack for pricing on the Yokohama AO32R.
Fit your car with near OEM sizing sticky tires to keep the car under the radar, so to speak.. and still be able to absolutely blast through curves or winding mountain roads...
Some might agrue that taller sidewall is bad for grip driving. But most people can't near the limits of adhesion anyways, and tossing a car into a corner as hot as possible is different from picking the best line to smoothly run a course.. but back to topic..
For most people, the big wheels are for looking good. The shorter tires allow for the bigger wheels to be fitted on the car. All day long people ask, "what tire size do I need to fit 18's??" I'd like to poke these people in the eye and ask why they wouldn't want a better gripping tire, instead of wondering how can they get these bling wheels on their ride. They consider tires secondary to the bling wheels, so they to me are second class citizens...
Another thing to consider is the same model tire in different sizes. Take a factory size such as 205/55-16 compared to a 205/40-16. If you had the same model tire, in those sizes, and ran each set on your car separately(ignoring tire diameter, focusing only on sidewall stiffness), you would notice first of all a change in ride harshness. I'd argue that grip would remain the same, or at least so close that it would be imperceptible, because grip(adhesion) is first a friction issue, not so much a sidewall flex issue. This is why we always say get an expensive sticky tire to transform your car's performance.
To a degree, the shorter sidewall tire would transmit road condition better(as already stated) but unless Q45tech has an equation to give us, I see no real benefit.
The shorter sidewall will be stiffer. Less flex means, among other things, harsh ride and greater transmission of road characteristics(expansion joints, ruts, bumps, etc)
There's many variables. Reinforced vs. non reinforced sidewalls, calculating your proper PSI for the shorter tire with new, differing load index.... measured against what feels right, and what delivers better performance, and measure that against whether there really is any benefit at all..? other than bling factor.
Generally, the smaller sized(OEM
) wheels and accompanying tires are lighter. Wheel response is key for cars, since heavy wheel/tire assy negatively affects acceleration, braking, and suspension travel rates. Smaller will cost less, weigh less, attract less unwanted attention, perform equal to or better... if you outfit the car with good tires.
16" alloys with 205/55-16 Azenis or check TireRack for pricing on the Yokohama AO32R.
Fit your car with near OEM sizing sticky tires to keep the car under the radar, so to speak.. and still be able to absolutely blast through curves or winding mountain roads...
Some might agrue that taller sidewall is bad for grip driving. But most people can't near the limits of adhesion anyways, and tossing a car into a corner as hot as possible is different from picking the best line to smoothly run a course.. but back to topic..
For most people, the big wheels are for looking good. The shorter tires allow for the bigger wheels to be fitted on the car. All day long people ask, "what tire size do I need to fit 18's??" I'd like to poke these people in the eye and ask why they wouldn't want a better gripping tire, instead of wondering how can they get these bling wheels on their ride. They consider tires secondary to the bling wheels, so they to me are second class citizens...
Another thing to consider is the same model tire in different sizes. Take a factory size such as 205/55-16 compared to a 205/40-16. If you had the same model tire, in those sizes, and ran each set on your car separately(ignoring tire diameter, focusing only on sidewall stiffness), you would notice first of all a change in ride harshness. I'd argue that grip would remain the same, or at least so close that it would be imperceptible, because grip(adhesion) is first a friction issue, not so much a sidewall flex issue. This is why we always say get an expensive sticky tire to transform your car's performance.
To a degree, the shorter sidewall tire would transmit road condition better(as already stated) but unless Q45tech has an equation to give us, I see no real benefit.
lol i would need some kind of crazy 10,000$ brake setup if i needed to get 18" wheels to fit my brakes. highest i ever plan to go is z32 brakes and i think you can fit 15" kosei's over that, if not there are many 16" wheels that work. so thats not really a consideration for me.
thanks for the info smith.
thanks for the info smith.
Under what conditions does it feel more stable? And have you compared back to back a competition tire to a "summer performance" short sidewall tire? I think many people's eyes would be opened by an instrumented test, but pricing is still high and will keep most people away from really good grip tires.
Keep in mind there are many conditions that your car sees. Just having a stiff tire, that will flex very little, is not always a plus.
I'll still bet a 16" competition tire will outperform any 18" and larger "summer performance" tire on any instrumented test. Adhesion is higher, and feedback isn't compromised in a 205/55-16.
205/55-16 is the best of both worlds IMO. Best compromise out there.
Keep in mind there are many conditions that your car sees. Just having a stiff tire, that will flex very little, is not always a plus.
I'll still bet a 16" competition tire will outperform any 18" and larger "summer performance" tire on any instrumented test. Adhesion is higher, and feedback isn't compromised in a 205/55-16.
205/55-16 is the best of both worlds IMO. Best compromise out there.
ive never actually tried two of the same tires in different ratio'sbut with other taller tires ive used, you can feel them kinda fold under when taking a turn hard, and they kinda have some "wiggle" to em and dont respond as fastIf the tire doesnt move as much, then its gonna respond faster, and it will also be more stable if the tire isnt wiggling aroundit also depends on the stiffness of the sidewall too
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Grant@tirerack
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Phil is right on the $$$ as usual. The best bang for the buck is a better tire in the same size. There are other reasons for going larger on the wheels/tires (mostly for brake or suspension upgrades or to get into a better selection of tires). In most cases, going larger than a plus-one will involve a much harsher ride, more noise, and minimal improvement in handling over a plus-one. You also get into a larger wheel which typically ups your unsprung weight.
Chmercer, the size 205/55-16 will work great because competition tires are available in that size, and you don't suffer too greatly from the harshness that Grant describes. This is more evidence why I think it's the ultimate compromise between size, grip, looks, fitment.
Chart for S-O3http://www.bridgestonetire.com...d=227
You could also consider:http://www.yokohamatire.com/se...d=uhp Best link ever:http://www.yokohamatire.com/pdf/AO32Rbltn.pdf^^AO32R available on TireRack's website!!!
Falken Azenis are also available in the size 205/55-16.http://www.falkentire.com/tires/az_rs_sizes.htm
Chart for S-O3http://www.bridgestonetire.com...d=227
You could also consider:http://www.yokohamatire.com/se...d=uhp Best link ever:http://www.yokohamatire.com/pdf/AO32Rbltn.pdf^^AO32R available on TireRack's website!!!
Falken Azenis are also available in the size 205/55-16.http://www.falkentire.com/tires/az_rs_sizes.htm
Just a note:THIS is why I am considering buying 18" wheels:http://www.yokohamatire.com/Ti...ID=60
they brought over the a048.....
mmmmm.
Seriousl, plus fitting is of its greatest benifit when the new tire size offers more sticky, agressive tires. A short, stiffer sidewall will, in fact, supposing you infalte them accordingly, provide better steering response, but the overall grip will be a function of your cars suspension(how effective it keeps the tire under force on the ground), and the tire compound, like smith said.
Now, for instance if you had a 205-60-15('summer s13 tire size) there are not many "sticky" stiff, agressive tires available in ths size. COmparing grip of thei size to say, my 225-45-17 PZeros is like apples to oranges, since no comprable tire is available in the 'stock size'.
Comparing, however a 205-55-16 Pzero to my 225-45-17's would be a good and interesting thing to do. What you would find is, subjectively, turn in was better and it did feel more progressive due to a wider footprint. More than likely though, voerall grip was withing a very low amrgin of one another, and the 205 would probably be better in the rain.....
Sidwall flex, per se, is usually more of a tire construction(have you ever felt the sidewall of a racing tire?...its like a brick) and air pressure than tire size(within reason), the overall height of the sidewall does influence it, but between way a 45 and a 40 series, its negligable.
-chet
they brought over the a048.....
mmmmm.
Seriousl, plus fitting is of its greatest benifit when the new tire size offers more sticky, agressive tires. A short, stiffer sidewall will, in fact, supposing you infalte them accordingly, provide better steering response, but the overall grip will be a function of your cars suspension(how effective it keeps the tire under force on the ground), and the tire compound, like smith said.
Now, for instance if you had a 205-60-15('summer s13 tire size) there are not many "sticky" stiff, agressive tires available in ths size. COmparing grip of thei size to say, my 225-45-17 PZeros is like apples to oranges, since no comprable tire is available in the 'stock size'.
Comparing, however a 205-55-16 Pzero to my 225-45-17's would be a good and interesting thing to do. What you would find is, subjectively, turn in was better and it did feel more progressive due to a wider footprint. More than likely though, voerall grip was withing a very low amrgin of one another, and the 205 would probably be better in the rain.....
Sidwall flex, per se, is usually more of a tire construction(have you ever felt the sidewall of a racing tire?...its like a brick) and air pressure than tire size(within reason), the overall height of the sidewall does influence it, but between way a 45 and a 40 series, its negligable.
-chet
woah a048 i love that tire. i didnt know they had it in the states. too bad its probably like a grand for a set 
hmm, so if i were to go with a 17" wheel, the ride would be slightly harsher, but the turn in would be better? is this correct?
are there any performance ratifications for various offsets of wheel? like maybe a wider stance with a lower offset wheel that would give better balance or somthing? just brainstorming here.
also, what would be the difference between putting a 205 wide tire on say a 5" wide wheel, vs putting it on like a 7.5" wheel? handling wise.
sorry for all the questions, its just that i hardly have cash for 1 set of wheels and im trying to get the optimum setup
ps. anyone know how much these wheels usually run? http://www.enkei.com/HPSpecPAGES/NTO3+MSpecs.htmli havent been able to find a good online store that has them so i dont really have a good idea on the price tag.
hmm, so if i were to go with a 17" wheel, the ride would be slightly harsher, but the turn in would be better? is this correct?
are there any performance ratifications for various offsets of wheel? like maybe a wider stance with a lower offset wheel that would give better balance or somthing? just brainstorming here.
also, what would be the difference between putting a 205 wide tire on say a 5" wide wheel, vs putting it on like a 7.5" wheel? handling wise.
sorry for all the questions, its just that i hardly have cash for 1 set of wheels and im trying to get the optimum setup
ps. anyone know how much these wheels usually run? http://www.enkei.com/HPSpecPAGES/NTO3+MSpecs.htmli havent been able to find a good online store that has them so i dont really have a good idea on the price tag.
chmercer:
I'm surprised in all the tire/wheel articles nobody has asked this sooner. I'm sure Grant has a super great technical answer, but I read a pretty indepth article in a magazine a few years ago.
Basically, a 205mm width tire is 8.07 in wide. It's Optimal to have the rim with about .5-1 in within the tire width. That's why an s14 has a 205 on a 7.5 (or 7?) from the factory and that's about hte widest that a tire should be put on that rim.
Fact is as far as footprint and handling, you can actually do BETTER by putting a narrower tire on a proper size wheel than stuffing a wider tire on a wheel size that's too small. I wish I still had that article, becuase they actually took a bunch of tire sizes and tried them on a bunch of different wheel widths and measured tread width and overall width, but the example is like this:a 225/45/17 AVS sport will fit on a 7 in wheel, but will probably end up with a tread width much closer to that 205/55/17 on the same 7 in wide wheel. 225mm = 8.86in, that's why you want the 8.5 in wide wheel for the 225/45/17. (Just a basic example, I havn't measured that ex on the wheel, but you get the point.) It has to do with the fact that as you squeeze the wider tire onto the narrower rim, the sidewall will curve in a little giving a less "flat" footprint and therefore less tread actually touching road.
So, basically, for optimal tire tread width and performance you should shop for a tire within a half inch to an inch of your wheel width. 1 in = 25.4 mm (also how the "plus sizing" is figured out when it comes to sidewall/width aspect ratios).
Oh, and that a048, you guys aren't gonna use that on the street/daily driver are you? I'll buy stock in Yokohama
I'm surprised in all the tire/wheel articles nobody has asked this sooner. I'm sure Grant has a super great technical answer, but I read a pretty indepth article in a magazine a few years ago.
Basically, a 205mm width tire is 8.07 in wide. It's Optimal to have the rim with about .5-1 in within the tire width. That's why an s14 has a 205 on a 7.5 (or 7?) from the factory and that's about hte widest that a tire should be put on that rim.
Fact is as far as footprint and handling, you can actually do BETTER by putting a narrower tire on a proper size wheel than stuffing a wider tire on a wheel size that's too small. I wish I still had that article, becuase they actually took a bunch of tire sizes and tried them on a bunch of different wheel widths and measured tread width and overall width, but the example is like this:a 225/45/17 AVS sport will fit on a 7 in wheel, but will probably end up with a tread width much closer to that 205/55/17 on the same 7 in wide wheel. 225mm = 8.86in, that's why you want the 8.5 in wide wheel for the 225/45/17. (Just a basic example, I havn't measured that ex on the wheel, but you get the point.) It has to do with the fact that as you squeeze the wider tire onto the narrower rim, the sidewall will curve in a little giving a less "flat" footprint and therefore less tread actually touching road.
So, basically, for optimal tire tread width and performance you should shop for a tire within a half inch to an inch of your wheel width. 1 in = 25.4 mm (also how the "plus sizing" is figured out when it comes to sidewall/width aspect ratios).
Oh, and that a048, you guys aren't gonna use that on the street/daily driver are you? I'll buy stock in Yokohama
i really enjoy my 16" wheels with 225/50s, i get a decent sidewall for if/when i smack a bump too fast and it really fills the car out nicely with a pro-kit drop. grip is plenty for a daily driver, i rarely go fast enough to squeal around town. 17s will work really well too and may offer you more tire choices.
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