Help! - 2003 Pathfinder Codes P0021 (and P0011) with CEL

[PathyPop]

First post here. Hope I can contribute some day, but for now I'm just a forum "user" . I'm in San Diego.

Just got a nice condition, original female owner, 03 LE 4x4 for my son with 119k miles for $3500. She had every receipt since new. This was the 5th we'd looked at and needed none of the common suspension work that most seen to need. The only issue at purchase was a RMS leak (more on this below) that we negotiated the price down to include $600 repair.

Her recent repair receipt was for the P0021, for which she had the solenoids and one sensor replaced plus oil change ($1300 at dealer!). Here's the progression after our purchase -

Picked up truck, >100 miles from home. Before driving home wiped the pan and added Bars RMS.

At home (120 mi later), pan is slightly oiled, so added Blue Devil RMS planning to drive 150 miles then change the oil to spec (I'd read that the Blue Devil is more effective).

Within 10 miles got the first CEL and the P0021 code along with intermittent hesitation over 40mph. Started reading here and everywhere about this code. Also drove it another 100 miles and the leak almost stopped, just a little wet but zero drips. The RMS sealant seems to be effective.

Before changing oil to 5w30, I did try adding heavy Risolene to increase oil pressure, figure it was worth a try as the Blue Devil reduces viscosity and that is exactly when the code started, but the code continued.

Changed oil to fresh 5w30 "high mileage" Mobil 1 regular oil. Drove ~50 more miles, but code continued. I read how sensitive this engine is to additives*, so I changed the oil again to regular 5w30. Still getting the P0021 code, but not as quickly.

I pulled both the solenoids (very easy), checked operation, cleaned with carb cleaner, reinstalled. I'd thought the RMS sealant may have affected rubber parts, but there are none, just small screens, but they were already clean. Still getting the P0021.

Question - does anyone think changing the oil to 10w40 will increase the oil pressure enough and eliminate the P0021? I'd read on a Q35 forum that a blown internal gasket can reduce oil pressure to the cam shaft. Very expensive, hope that's not it.

* on the additives, hard to believe from my post, but I'm not into adding anything to my oil. I'd never had an RMS leak before, but I'd read how effective the RMS sealer can be, especially the Blue Devil, and it might save or postpone a $600 fix.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[PathyPop]

Follow up -

Got back to working on this. I found that running it with the bank 2 cam position sensor removed would stop the P0021, but instead with a code P0345 plus CEL for the CPS not working (of course). The reason for running like this is that it doesn't go into "limp mode" on this code so my son was able to drive it locally til I got time to figure it out. It was just harder to start and the CEL light on.

I bought a cheap VVT solenoid knock-off on ebay for only $33, not to use it, but to install it in place of the existing OEM solenoids to test operation since you can't pull these to test while running. They operated just fine. I did another oil flush and put the CPS back, but still got the P0021 codes.

Reading more about how the solenoids are powered by oil, it is stated the P0021 means the ECU detects the cam as "over-advanced" so I started thinking about oil pressure and tested it. A little hard to get to the sensor, but I was able to get a gauge on to read 30 psi at idle and 60 psi at 2000 rpm. The solenoids don't operate until 2000 rpm and full open past 3000 rpm, so I was thinking the pressure might be too high.

I was about to take it to a local indy mechanic when I thought I'd try putting on a new oil filter. It immediately ran with NO MORE CODES! So, even though the oil/filter was just changed before purchase and then I did the sealant additive + flushes, I didn't bother to change the filter thinking it was ok. I'm guessing the filter was clogged from the sealant and flushes and the oil routed around it with a pressure the solenoids didn't like. So far we've got over 100 miles now with no codes.

A little frustrating, and maybe $100 worth of oil, parts, etc, but now it is running great! The good news is the Blue Devil RMS sealant worked great (so far) and that's a big savings. At purchase oil was dripping but it hasn't leaked for two weeks since.

Hope this helps somebody.

[attofarad]

I pulled both the solenoids (very easy), checked operation, cleaned with carb cleaner, reinstalled. I'd thought the RMS sealant may have affected rubber parts, but there are none, just small screens, but they were already clean.

Hi Pop,

When you pull the solenoid from the unit (i.e. by removing the one screw), what seals the part which you pull out? Can you clean the screens by just removing the one screw and pulling on the solenoid? I can't quite picture it.

Thanks,
Gary

[fleurys]

Follow up -

Got back to working on this. I found that running it with the bank 2 cam position sensor removed would stop the P0021, but instead with a code P0345 plus CEL for the CPS not working (of course). The reason for running like this is that it doesn't go into "limp mode" on this code so my son was able to drive it locally til I got time to figure it out. It was just harder to start and the CEL light on.

I bought a cheap VVT solenoid knock-off on ebay for only $33, not to use it, but to install it in place of the existing OEM solenoids to test operation since you can't pull these to test while running. They operated just fine. I did another oil flush and put the CPS back, but still got the P0021 codes.

Reading more about how the solenoids are powered by oil, it is stated the P0021 means the ECU detects the cam as "over-advanced" so I started thinking about oil pressure and tested it. A little hard to get to the sensor, but I was able to get a gauge on to read 30 psi at idle and 60 psi at 2000 rpm. The solenoids don't operate until 2000 rpm and full open past 3000 rpm, so I was thinking the pressure might be too high.

I was about to take it to a local indy mechanic when I thought I'd try putting on a new oil filter. It immediately ran with NO MORE CODES! So, even though the oil/filter was just changed before purchase and then I did the sealant additive + flushes, I didn't bother to change the filter thinking it was ok. I'm guessing the filter was clogged from the sealant and flushes and the oil routed around it with a pressure the solenoids didn't like. So far we've got over 100 miles now with no codes.

A little frustrating, and maybe $100 worth of oil, parts, etc, but now it is running great! The good news is the Blue Devil RMS sealant worked great (so far) and that's a big savings. At purchase oil was dripping but it hasn't leaked for two weeks since.

Hope this helps somebody.

This is great info.. Thank you for your contribution !

[PathyPop]

When you pull the solenoid from the unit (i.e. by removing the one screw), what seals the part which you pull out? Can you clean the screens by just removing the one screw and pulling on the solenoid? I can't quite picture it

There is an "O" ring that seals the core actuator. Yes on the removing the one 10mm bolt and gently pulling/prying the solenoid. Here's someone else's youtube video of the actuator core that slides out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr9RxrHEyrU

There is really little reason to remove the whole body/core because it doesn't wear and you just need test the solenoid with 12v and clean those fine screens as they would plug up first before the oil pathways in the body. Removing the full unit also risks having a leak and buying a new gasket. Either way, removing the unit takes about 15 min but getting just the core out takes 3 min.

Seems these are a real problem on the "HR" versions of the VQ35, in the "high revving" Z's, G's, Maxima's, etc. Not quite as much with our truck versions.

[attofarad]

Thanks for the reply, and the video link. From a quick glance, it seems that there is a coolant pipe in the way of pulling just the solenoid on the passenger side, so I might need to remove the 3 bolts (then the 1), instead of just the 1 bolt. I'll take a better look over the weekend.
Thanks again,
Gary

[PathyPop]

seems that there is a coolant pipe in the way of pulling just the solenoid on the passenger side

Ahh, I just checked (my son's), you're right. Our problem code was the P0021, driver's side. Either way, all or just the core, it's easy. Good luck.

[Micallen]

When you pull the solenoid from the unit (i.e. by removing the one screw), what seals the part which you pull out? Can you clean the screens by just removing the one screw and pulling on the solenoid? I can't quite picture it

There is an "O" ring that seals the core actuator. Yes on the removing the one 10mm bolt and gently pulling/prying the solenoid. Here's someone else's youtube video of the actuator core that slides out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr9RxrHEyrU

There is really little reason to remove the whole body/core because it doesn't wear and you just need test the solenoid with 12v and clean those fine screens as they would plug up first before the oil pathways in the body. Removing the full unit also risks having a leak and buying a new gasket. Either way, removing the unit takes about 15 min but getting just the core out takes 3 min.

Seems these are a real problem on the "HR" versions of the VQ35, in the "high revving" Z's, G's, Maxima's, etc. Not quite as much with our truck versions.

Bringing up old thread...
Is there a pic showing WHERE these solenoids are? Needless to say, all the videos I've come across don't work, LOL.

[VStar650CL]

Back of the timing cover, one on each side:

[Rustfree]

I also have a 2003 Pathfinder with the P0011 and P0021 cam over advanced codes. It only has 140k on it.

I tried a filter and oil change first, no luck. Then did both cam position and solenoids, still not fixed.

Doesn't have any noises at start up like loose timing chain.

Has anyone had to put the actual cam phasers in? Did that fix the P0011 and P0021 codes? Seems odd that both phasers would go out at the same time?

Thanks for any help.

[VStar650CL]

Most likely you have a leaky upper gallery gasket in the rear timing cover. When the upper one leaks it oil-starves everything north of it in the timing cover, both phasers and both sub-chain tensioners. CZP and some other places sell the gaskets aftermarket, Nissan doesn't sell them separately. Big job, the front cover and main chain need to come out to replace them.

VQ35 Path Oil Galleries.jpg (57.07 KiB) Viewed 773 times

[Rustfree]

Thanks very much for taking the time to help, I'm new to the cam phaser thing. So loss of oil pressure can cause over advance?

Does it take oil pressure to advance and go back to no advance?

Thanks for the education.

Scott

[VStar650CL]

Thanks very much for taking the time to help, I'm new to the cam phaser thing. So loss of oil pressure can cause over advance?

Does it take oil pressure to advance and go back to no advance?

Sure, the whole setup is basically hydraulic with motor oil instead of hydraulic fluid. Those codes don't necessarily mean overadvance, they just mean the ECM can't control the cams. I.e., it's working the actuators but not getting the expected cam angles. For one actuator or one sensor to go south, that usually means a bad actuator or sensor, or maybe a plugged oil passage. For both to go south it usually means an oil viscosity or pressure problem. On VQ's, unless you're running funky oil, the culprit is usually the gallery.

[Rustfree]

Again greatly appreciated.

Is the rear cover picture you sent my application?

Can you tell me what set of gaskets I should order?

You have been a real lifesaver for this 03 Pathfinder.

Thanks, Scott

[VStar650CL]

Yes, that pic came from an eBay listing from a junkyard for an '04 Pathy, it should be identical to your '03. The gallery gaskets are all aftermarket, Nissan doesn't offer them separately as I mentioned above. I'd contact CZP, Z1 Motorsports, or any of the other places offering replacements to find the right ones for your ride. I'm pretty sure the VQ40 and transverse VQ35 galleries are different, but the early 350Z gaskets should fit you. Frankly, I'd get a timing set and do the whole nine yards while you're in there. Doesn't seem much point in tearing the whole front off a 140K engine without replacing the chains and tensioners just becuz.

[Rustfree]

Well, saga continues on my 03 Pathfinder. The oil gallery gaskets had cracks and missing pieces, so thought there is the problem. Yes, the primary chain was sloppy and some of the plastic in the hydraulic tensioners was missing, so put an entire kit in. However, didn't do the phasers. The only ones we could find were $600 plus each.

Got it back together and still setting the codes after a short drive. Already installed the solenoids and can sensors.

Figured I'd try thinner 0-20 oil, made it worse, then tried 10-40 oil and set the codes after a short drive.

I'm at a loss. Some people claim that one phaser failing can set codes for both banks. Is that true? If not any thoughts on what could be culprit?

Thanks in advance, Scott

[VStar650CL]

Did you pull the fuel pump fuse and crank dry for awhile before letting her start? If not, there's a good chance one or more of your chains jumped time when she fired (because the tensioners weren't pressurized). If you stream data for the cam angles, they should both read 0 degrees +/- 1 at idle. On VQ's the chains generally show about 3 degrees per tooth when jumped. If both are off by the same amount it usually means the main chain jumped, if they're different then it's a sub-chain or combination of main and sub.

[Rustfree]

Thanks again for the prompt reply.

Hmm, didn't get the memo on dry crank. So, short answer no.

I'll throw my scan tool on.

Do the actual phasers ever go bad. At $600 a piece , and finding the other issues, I opted out. It has 145k on it, We put new chains, guides and tensions on.

It had a fair amount of carbon oil residue, so may indicate lack of oil changes.

Thanks again, Scott

[VStar650CL]

Phasers going bad is very rare. Since your engine was even drier than usual after a chain job (your galleries were empty too), I'd say there's a very good chance you jumped both sub-chains when she fired.

[Rustfree]

Sorry for my slow reply. I'm working on multiple vehicles at once. I put my scan tool on. I will attach a picture, but the cam timing seems to be in your suggested range. While watching live on my scanner bank 1 was showing a lot more activity on the graph than bank 2, but both were in spec.

I can't figure out how to attach an image. I'd like you to see the image from my scan tool. If you can tell me how to attach an image. I tried the image icon.

I'm at a loss, we have invested a lot of time and a decent amount of money. I keep feeling it's something simple that I'm overlooking.

Thanks again, I really appreciate you sticking with me on this.

Scott

[VStar650CL]

To attach an image, go to Full Editor & Preview. Below the text entry box, tag the tab marked Attachments and then tag the Add Files button. Select the file you want, and after it uploads, place the cursor in the text box where you want the pic to appear then select Place Inline. There's a limit on file size but I'm not sure exactly what it is, I usually downsize my stuff with photoshop to 1500~2000 pixels on the long side. That still gives decent viewability but doesn't take forever to populate.

[VStar650CL]

PS - I just noticed above that you say you put in new cam sensors. Are they OEM or aftermarket? If they're aftermarket, try putting the old ones back in. I can't begin to tell you how much heartache and headscratching I've seen over the years from aftermarket Halls.

[Rustfree]

Both solenoids and sensors were aftermarket. I hope I still have the cam sensors.

I'll try the old parts

Thanks again, Scott

[Rustfree]

I installed the OE cam sensors and solenoids, no help.

I did try thinner and thicker oil. It still has the 10/40 oil in it. I'll put the correct weight back in.

I don't want to put $1200 worth of phasers in. What happens, do the phasers go advanced and not wanting to return? Any final thoughts?

When I found the damaged oil gallery gaskets I thought for sure we found it, but went ahead and did the timing chain, guides, and tensioners.

Just a lot of waisted time and money with zero gain.

Thanks for all your help.

[VStar650CL]

P0011/P0021 aren't hard codes, they mean the ECM is commanding something but the something isn't happening. To know what's happening, you need to know what the ECM is commanding and seeing. Since you say they're reading normally at idle (0 deg +/- 1), the only way to really see what's going on is to stream the cam angles and the solenoid percentages being commanded by the ECM side by side, then log or watch them while getting on the gas. They should more or less correspond, although the readings will lag slightly behind the commands. One possibility is that your oil passages in the cover could have clogged because of the gallery leak, if so that will show up as little or no response to the ECM increasing the solenoid duty.