Healthcare: Why not?

[RCA]

Thought this was pretty solid.

[smockers83]

Unfortunately for you, it's political propaganda and rhetoric, much of which does not actually have solid ground in which you speak of.

I'll take only two points.

The city that drowned. Was not the federal government's fault. That was the New Orlean's fault and Louisiana's fault. If it were truly the fed's fault, I would agree, but the facts point otherwise. That one plays off of the media's misguided reporting and ignorance of the facts. They actually even reported the facts but twisted them. Remember them reporting about all the mobile homes sitting stranded in Texas...yup, Louisiana's fault. Federal aid was not allowed to cross the border because they (Louisiana gov) didn't know how to run the emergency plan if one even existed.

I would even go so far to say that there still is no right for any American to see a doctor, even with the new bill. Nor are all Americans able to see a doctor. Nor are all Americans eligible to see a doctor. That bill was a sham. Not so solid now, is it?

[AZhitman]

Sad. Whoever wrote that is even dumber than his intended audience.

I LOL'ed when the author misspelled words and then went on to slam people for misspelled protest signs.

Propaganda and emotional rhetoric isn't worth my time to even respond to, point-by-point.

[stebo0728]

LOL good one, had me chuckling

Gotta say Im sick to death of people who dont understand our political system enough to realize that Bush actually did become president in a legitimate fashion.

This dude learnded bout polertics th'thr day

[wingFeather]

Thought this was pretty solid.

There is nothing solid about that.

FAIL

[HashiriyaS14]

Conservatives shouldn't protest, it's unbecoming. When did this start happening, anyway?

Actually no one should protest anything because it's ineffectual and looks ridiculous, but stupid liberal granola-crunching college kids can be forgiven because they're dumb and don't know any better. I am skeptical of any cause wherein a significant percentage of supporters engage in public protesting.

[AZhitman]

People who actually contribute to the political system in this country do so at the polling place.

If you've got time to stand around with some stupid sign, you're either unemployed (or are going to be soon).

[RCA]

Well that is where the "pretty solid" referred to. I'm sure some points weren't perfect examples.

I interpreted this as a questioning of the priorities of the average citizen. A lot of people don't care about the deficit, a lot of people don't realize the cost of the war, but bring up healthcare reform and they are up in arms. That is where I am getting at. If it makes you feel better replace the examples with more valid ones but take it with a grain of salt.

Why isn't healthcare and education not a priority #1/at all costs issue?

[stebo0728]

Why isn't healthcare and education not a priority #1/at all costs issue?

Healthcare seems to be becoming more of an issue, and we could go on and on about public sector vs private sector options and which are better, but you also mentioned education.

Whats wrong with education? Do you think the public education system is failing? Perhaps, but I disagree, at least, it is not failing to do the job it was intended to do. What job is that? To educate people only to the point they become a functioning member of the working class. Public school does not seek to produce the more productive members of society. At that job I would say they are pretty successful. Now were you to consider the job to be keeping Americans on par intellectually with other nations, and to keep innovation and entrepreneurship levels high, well then its failing miserably.

[IBCoupe]

Why isn't healthcare and education not a priority #1/at all costs issue?

Healthcare seems to be becoming more of an issue, and we could go on and on about public sector vs private sector options and which are better, but you also mentioned education.

Whats wrong with education? Do you think the public education system is failing? Perhaps, but I disagree, at least, it is not failing to do the job it was intended to do. What job is that? To educate people only to the point they become a functioning member of the working class. Public school does not seek to produce the more productive members of society. At that job I would say they are pretty successful. Now were you to consider the job to be keeping Americans on par intellectually with other nations, and to keep innovation and entrepreneurship levels high, well then its failing miserably.

On that count, private schools aren't doing so hot, either. When accounting for the economic status of the students, public schools actually marginally outperform private schools. So if there's a problem, it has to involve factors beyond public education.

[stebo0728]

On that count, private schools aren't doing so hot, either. When accounting for the economic status of the students, public schools actually marginally outperform private schools. So if there's a problem, it has to involve factors beyond public education.

Where did you find data to support that position?

[HashiriyaS14]

In High School, I did 2 years at a very expensive DC private school and then my last 2 years from a highly-rated (top 50 in the US at the time) public school.

The latter was better, and not subtly better. Enormously better.

This doesn't mean that private education is a failed idea or that all public schools are better, but it DOES mean that public education isn't a flawed concept (not that I'm saying anyone suggested it was). It varies hugely from school to school, but in the right district with the right programs it CAN be very very good.

On the whole though, it's falling short. It's job IS to make American students internationally competitive. Not all of this can be solved with money, but some of it can be. There are plenty of schools in areas just as wealthy as where I was that are not ranked anywhere near as high. Money isn't the problem at those schools, it's lazy teachers or poor planning or something else. At the schools where they can't afford books and they're cutting music for math, it needs to start with the dollars.

[wingFeather]

Why isn't healthcare and education not a priority #1/at all costs issue?

Healthcare is a priority in this country... it rakes in a ton of money. My area alone has THREE new mega hospitals. This industry spent $$$ to build these places, money they made off overcharging you & I, and they will raise their prices to make more $$$ with these new buildings. Healthcare is a big money maker!

As for education, well there is another money maker - but not as big. All politicians ever do is throw more money at "the issue". This money gets siphoned by people at the top, or goes to buy new Mac computers every year. Throwing money in the toilet does nothing for our children. We must find a way to solve the social issues which create legions of children who don't care about their education. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (no matter how much you pay it).

[HashiriyaS14]

We must find a way to solve the social issues which create legions of children who don't care about their education. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (no matter how much you pay it).

I can't believe I'm about to admit this, but I agree with the above statement.

This does NOT mean that I don't think *some* schools are in need of additional funding, but it does mean that it sure as hell isn't a cure-all for the whole system.

[mattblancarte]

Rules 1&2 OP

[HashiriyaS14]

Rules 1&2 OP

Overruled.

This is the appropriate place for political humor, cartoons, etc. I'd say this image qualifies, or any similar image regardless of party/view orientation.


This particular one is borderline, but it's not overly inflammatory, and it raises valid points, although the opposition could raise just as many valid points to the contrary, and they're free (and apparently willing) to do so.

[mattblancarte]

Not referring to NICO rules. OP will understand.

[RCA]

Why isn't healthcare and education not a priority #1/at all costs issue?

Healthcare seems to be becoming more of an issue, and we could go on and on about public sector vs private sector options and which are better, but you also mentioned education.

Whats wrong with education? Do you think the public education system is failing? Perhaps, but I disagree, at least, it is not failing to do the job it was intended to do. What job is that? To educate people only to the point they become a functioning member of the working class. Public school does not seek to produce the more productive members of society. At that job I would say they are pretty successful. Now were you to consider the job to be keeping Americans on par intellectually with other nations, and to keep innovation and entrepreneurship levels high, well then its failing miserably.

On that count, private schools aren't doing so hot, either. When accounting for the economic status of the students, public schools actually marginally outperform private schools. So if there's a problem, it has to involve factors beyond public education.

So you (stebo0728) think that education's purpose is to "educate people only to the point (that) they become a functioning member of the working class? Well then that is the problem right there. Why can't education be more than that? Education is EVERYTHING. You wan't to break socio-economic poverty cycles? Education.

No child left behind has done nothing but hurt the education of children. But there isn't a tea bag party for that...

Why isn't healthcare and education not a priority #1/at all costs issue?

Healthcare is a priority in this country... it rakes in a ton of money. My area alone has THREE new mega hospitals. This industry spent $$$ to build these places, money they made off overcharging you & I, and they will raise their prices to make more $$$ with these new buildings. Healthcare is a big money maker!

As for education, well there is another money maker - but not as big. All politicians ever do is throw more money at "the issue". This money gets siphoned by people at the top, or goes to buy new Mac computers every year. Throwing money in the toilet does nothing for our children. We must find a way to solve the social issues which create legions of children who don't care about their education. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink (no matter how much you pay it).

Healthcare is a big money maker all over the world, not just the US.

"Mega Hospitals" aren't just being built in the US fyi. They are building hospitals all over the world, and apparently we are doing something wrong:



Does the cost of healthcare really cost THAT much, or is it being driven up by insurance companies? The real industry seeing money from healthcare is the insurance companies. Share holders want growth and profits, so guess what, a child some where is denied heath coverage that he or she rightfully deserves because company XYZ needs to meet the expectations of Wall Street investors. When universal healthcare and universal health insurance was being discussed/considered the insurance companies were doing everything in their power to make sure it disappears. Why? Was it because they wanted what was best for US citizens? They care about one thing and one thing only. However, I do agree that when insurance companies provide payment, the healthcare system in the US is very good.

As for the education point, while yes I do agree with you that people need to want to learn in order to do so, but with a bigger budget maybe you can reach kids that you might of not reached before.
Maybe with a larger budget you can have after school programs or different classes that might appeal to. If we tripled the Federal Budget education budget for 2011 ($422,700,000,000, which is half of the defense budget) I wouldn't expect a overnight change, but over a period of time, everyone will see it's affects.

Rules 1&2 OP

For those who don't know what he is referring to...
Well, I cant say...

[IBCoupe]

On that count, private schools aren't doing so hot, either. When accounting for the economic status of the students, public schools actually marginally outperform private schools. So if there's a problem, it has to involve factors beyond public education.

Where did you find data to support that position?

A 2005 study:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006461
The executive summary:
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pu ... 006461.asp

Here's the abstract description from the Government website:

This study compares mean 2003 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading and mathematics scores of public and private schools in 4th and 8th grades, statistically controlling for individual student characteristics (such as gender, race/ethnicity, disability status, identification as an English language learner) and school characteristics (such as school size, location, and the composition of the student body). In grades 4 and 8, using unadjusted mean scores, students in private schools scored significantly higher than students in public schools for both reading and mathematics. But when school means were adjusted in the HLM analysis, the average for public schools was significantly higher than the average for private schools for grade 4 mathematics and not significantly different for reading. At grade 8, the average for private schools was significantly higher than the average for public schools in reading but not significantly different for mathematics. Comparisons were also carried out between types of sectarian schools. In grade 4, Catholic and Lutheran schools were compared separately to public schools. For both reading and mathematics, the results were similar to those based on all private schools. In grade 8, Catholic, Lutheran, and Conservative Christian schools were each compared to public schools. For Catholic and Lutheran schools for both reading and mathematics, the results were again similar to those based on all private schools. For Conservative Christian schools, the average adjusted school mean in reading was not significantly different from that of public schools. In mathematics, the average adjusted school mean for Conservative Christian schools was significantly lower than that of public schools.

Here's an article about a 2008 follow-up study, that indicates that public and private schools equally raise math scores:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 162916.htm

[stebo0728]

So you (stebo0728) think that education's purpose is to "educate people only to the point (that) they become a functioning member of the working class? Well then that is the problem right there. Why can't education be more than that? Education is EVERYTHING. You wan't to break socio-economic poverty cycles? Education.

No no no you misunderstand me. I do not believe that this should be the purpose of education. Im saying that it currently IS the purpose of education, at least on the public level. And this was the design of public education. I posted just now about education on the other thread, go read that and youll see more of what I think we need to do to fix education.

[wingFeather]

Does the cost of healthcare really cost THAT much, or is it being driven up by insurance companies?

Correct... which is why I am in disbelief that Obama's plan supports the insurance mafia. If he wanted to make REAL change for the better, he'd do something about these goons. Fix the cause not the symptoms!

PS - On the subject of defense budgets, we have been fairly consistent (when adjusted for inflation). I was trying to talk with a tenured professor who swore that the military budget was more than half of our spending. It is NOT!!! Even Wikipedia shows it as 23%. No wonder our kids are in such bad shape when these overpaid professors are too busy pushing misinformation, than actually educating kids. Shame...

[HashiriyaS14]

PS - On the subject of defense budgets, we have been fairly consistent (when adjusted for inflation). I was trying to talk with a tenured professor who swore that the military budget was more than half of our spending. It is NOT!!! Even wakopedia shows it as 23%. No wonder our kids are in such bad shape when these overpaid professors are too busy pushing misinformation, than actually educating kids. Shame...

Maybe he meant over half of discretionary? i.e. after entitlements?

[audtatious]

The "gotta pass it to read it" laws....

Dewhurst: New federal health care law will bust Texas' budget
"WASHINGTON – Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst warned this morning that the new federal health care legislation will bust Texas’ budget – saddling state taxpayers with $27 billion in extra costs over the next decade."

Unfunded mandates that are forced on states are wonderful.........

[stebo0728]

The "gotta pass it to read it" laws....

Dewhurst: New federal health care law will bust Texas' budget
"WASHINGTON – Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst warned this morning that the new federal health care legislation will bust Texas’ budget – saddling state taxpayers with $27 billion in extra costs over the next decade."

Unfunded mandates that are forced on states are wonderful.........

Gotta love those Pelosi-isms ...