Healthcare - A real simple rundown for the dullards among us.

[AZhitman]

Yeah, not do one at all.

Bingo.

See my original post for the reasons why.

How is it that the nincompoops who SUPPORT a public option can POSSIBLY foresee the government actually running it with any competency?

As far as I'm concerned, none of the people arguing about it need it. SO why the discussion?

Off course people will bash the source and not look at the numbers - But this bears repeating and re-reading: http://www.foxnews.com/politic...erage/

[WDRacing]

Off course people will bash the source and not look at the numbers - But this bears repeating and re-reading: http://www.foxnews.com/politic...erage/

People only attack the source when they run out of competant things to debate. If they can't argue against it, they dismiss it entirely.

[srellim234]

Here's an interesting study that should add a little fuel to the healthcare debate:

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/...s.php

When you have to make a profit, you charge more. What a novel concept!

[RobPaulson]

I've said it here before: Healthcare (like a college education, home ownership, and driving a car) is not one of your "unalienable rights".

+1

I came out of school SoL for healthcare. What did I do? I got a job, and purchased my own, while living within my means and supporting myself.

Health care is not a right. It is a privilege. Every single human in the united states has the means, and more than enough tools and current government assistance to get out of whatever they are in and afford health care (or as stated before, lead a HEALTHIER LIFESTYLE and not NEED healthcare).

all this crying and complaining makes me sick, what happened to the determination to succeed that used to drive americans? dont have money to eat? GET A JOB. Think you're too good for a certain level of job? starve to death for all i care. we dont need people like you in our society anyway.

[srellim234]

That's right. Bust your butt for 29 years for the same company, have them sell out and lay you off with a whole two weeks' pay while the CEO, CFO, company president and chief legal officer walk away with $40 million, have no prospects because you are "overqualified" or are too old (yes, age discrimination is alive and well), watch millions of jobs shrink out of the market so there aren't enough jobs for those people and drop dead, you lazy sob's.

I hope like hell that you never have to face what's out there when you're 55-65 or have to face what happened in the 1930s.

You mentioned in another thread that you would be willing to sponsor someone in need. Why the hell aren't you doing it? Sounds like you're too busy waiting for the government to take care of those people in need while you complain but do nothing about it. Put your money where your mouth is, buddy.

Sorry to rant like that, but I'm tired of seeing my friends get the shaft and no help offerred from those who b**** the loudest.

You have a right to life in this country. Civilized countries around the world see basic healthcare as part of that right to life. They don't let some beancounter sit behind a desk and make the decision who dies and who lives based on whether or not the CEO needs a new Mercedes.

[RobPaulson]

That's right. Bust your butt for 29 years for the same company, have them sell out and lay you off with a whole two weeks' pay while the CEO, CFO, company president and chief legal officer walk away with $40 million, have no prospects because you are "overqualified" or are too old (yes, age discrimination is alive and well), watch millions of jobs shrink out of the market so there aren't enough jobs for those people and drop dead, you lazy sob's.

So your 55-65 and arent getting ready to retire yet? Or havent put away ANY money to sustain your lifestyle if the unthinkable happens? Not to mention, I said there are plenty of current, government funded aid for people like this ALREADY. There is no need for the govt to take over the health care industry as well. My point of view on your statements bleed into my belief about how people should live financially too though, so we wont really get into this much further.

Quote »I hope like hell that you never have to face what's out there when you're 55-65 or have to face what happened in the 1930s.[/quote]Me too dude, me too. But if it did, you know what, I would do what I had to do to survive, and a government handout would be the last thing on my list of places to look. I have a bit more pride than that.

Quote »You mentioned in another thread that you would be willing to sponsor someone in need. Why the hell aren't you doing it? Sounds like you're too busy waiting for the government to take care of those people in need while you complain but do nothing about it. Put your money where your mouth is, buddy.[/quote]I dont recall this and will not respond in a similarly combative way, please link me the post and I can explain myself further.

[AZhitman]

Bust your butt for 29 years for the same company, have them sell out and lay you off with a whole two weeks' pay while the CEO, CFO, company president and chief legal officer walk away with $40 million, have no prospects because you are "overqualified" or are too old (yes, age discrimination is alive and well), watch millions of jobs shrink out of the market so there aren't enough jobs for those people and drop dead, you lazy sob's.

That could happen to anyone.

The CEO can drop dead of a stress-induced heart attack.

How about talking about the other side (the OTHER 99% of people)? The ones who work hard, retire, and live happily ever after?

We don't write legislation for the 1% or for the 'theoreticals'. Sorry Steve.

You mentioned in another thread that you would be willing to sponsor someone in need. Why the hell aren't you doing it?

Who's to say we're not?

You don't know where my income goes, or my charity, or my volunteering, or my non-financial support.

The only one you can question is you. That's only fair, and you know it.

Sorry to rant like that, but I'm tired of seeing my friends get the shaft and no help offerred from those who b**** the loudest.

I'd bet none of them wants a handout. They're probably good, upstanding, proud men and women.

There's help out there - Unfortunately, in this day and age, faith-based support is so un-P.C., it's almost taboo... Which is stupid, but whatever.

I think the rest of your rant is kinda exaggerated and emotional, and I know you to be rational and reasonable, so I'll skip those parts.

[audtatious]

Insurance companies are all evil and Gov option is much better. That's what Pelosi and gang want everyone to think. But, how good is Gov "insurance"? Let's look at Medicare as Medicare can provide us a glimpse into what the Gov option will be like from a claims perspective.

The 2008 AMA National Health Insurer health card report can give us a glimpse into the future based on the number of claims denied. Who was the worse? Was it Aetna, Anthem, CIGNA, others? No, it was Medicare who had the highest percentage of claims.



Isn't that special

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/p...d.pdf

[srellim234]

My friends who are suffering right now are using faith-based support. You say I don't know where your money goes. True, but if you were in fact sponsoring someone to help with their healthcare while they needed it the arguments on this site from conservatives would have been

"Here's what we're doing because we're doing it RIGHT NOW in the private sector and it's working." Not "Here's what we should or are willing to do." If the commitment to help your fellow man in that manner was truly there, you'd already be doing it and you'd be telling us how well it is working.

I'm all for the private sector: I think a for-profit management company running a non-profit healthcare system for those in need is workable and sustainable. Someone like Kaiser Permanente, who's been really quiet and successful through all of this, would probably be willing to bid on it. They have the experience from medical manufacturing, doctors, hospitals, insurance and contracts in their repertoire right now. We could let them set up a free-standing system or integrate it into their current system as they saw fit.

It can be done successfully; the 2004 study demonstrates that.

The right to life for many people in this world includes a right to life, not just a right to be born.

Sorry for the emotional part of the above rant, but I'm truly sick and tired of the lack of empathy and sympathy from you guys regarding people who did bust their butts in the private sector, see themselves now getting screwed and are not getting the right to life they should be. That includes those who are still working in the private sector and are getting cut off by the insurance bean counters from things like cancer care and can't get affordable coverage anywhere else. My feeling is, "Why CAN'T we do something for THOSE people?" That's the magnanimous American way and history of our country regarding others. Let's bring that aid home for Americans.

[smockers83]

My friends who are suffering right now are using faith-based support. You say I don't know where your money goes. True, but if you were in fact sponsoring someone to help with their healthcare while they needed it the arguments on this site from conservatives would have been

"Here's what we're doing because we're doing it RIGHT NOW in the private sector and it's working." Not "Here's what we should or are willing to do." If the commitment to help your fellow man in that manner was truly there, you'd already be doing it and you'd be telling us how well it is working.

That whole notion is virtually the whole idea behind insurance. Everyone pays into the pool and when someone needs it, they extract what they need from the pool, therefore being sponsored by all the people who paid in. Just that in the way explained here, we're extracting from the pool in a different way.

[audtatious]

Sorry for the emotional part of the above rant, but I'm truly sick and tired of the lack of empathy and sympathy from you guys regarding people who did bust their butts in the private sector, see themselves now getting screwed and are not getting the right to life they should be. That includes those who are still working in the private sector and are getting cut off by the insurance bean counters from things like cancer care and can't get affordable coverage anywhere else. My feeling is, "Why CAN'T we do something for THOSE people?" That's the magnanimous American way and history of our country regarding others. Let's bring that aid home for Americans.

We have Medicaid and Medicare that we all pay into along with our own individual policies. If someone is "falling through the crack" then it should be looked into. The HC bill as put forth by Congress is simply NOT going to solve things, IMO, and will cause greater employment issues and financial issues to force people under a plan that will be less that what is available today. You seem to keep lumping us in the "we don't care at all" category and that's simply not the case. We don't see the current Administrations direction as being correct and we are going to be vocal about it.

[smockers83]

As said above, it's not that we don't care, it's the fact that the administration's healthcare proposal is just a band aid application. They don't want to tackle the real work ahead of them. The administration's policies have been compared to the way GM was ran over the past few decades.

[srellim234]

I know where you're coming from; I also have watched and been involved in this debate for over 40 years. The conservatives do not believe that there is a problem and are only interested in blocking what is being proposed. Defense of capitalism is a good thing and necessary, but not when it is costing the lives of those who have worked in the private sector and have been betrayed by the greed in it.

I also do not believe the plan in Congress can work. I do believe a public option as outlined above (a non-profit managed by a for-profit company) can work. Leaving to the insurance, health management, manufacturers, for-profit hospital companies to take care of those in need is not an option any more. They've betrayd the public trust, just like those in the banking industry and those in elected public offices have betrayed the public trust.

AZ- you mentioned your mom and the bartering system with the doctor. Do you also recall that back then the local hospitals were almost exclusively non-profits? To make money the cities, counties, etc. sold them off to private sector companies, eliminating that "public option" competition to the privates. That is actually when the costs started spiralling upwards out of control. Somehow we need to put that competitive pressure to rein in prices so care is providable for all again.

[audtatious]

You have been listening to the mainstream media too much if you believe the GOP is simply blocking this without any other solutions. Instead you seem to want change just because it is change, without really seeing what the end result will be. This bill is a partisan Dem bill that has been put together behind closed doors and GOP comment or intervention has been denied or ignored to push agenda. That agenda is a fully socialized healthcare system where the Gov makes all calls and insurance companies are pushed out of the market.

Hell, this is just the first release of the bill and an updated one is being released Monday. Wonder how many more pages it will be? I bet 300+

[telcoman]

You have been listening to the mainstream media too much if you believe the GOP is simply blocking this without any other solutions.

And Matt you've been listening to Fox and Clear Channel too much

This bill is a partisan Dem bill that has been put together behind closed doors and GOP comment or intervention has been denied or ignored to push agenda.

Not true! The GOP did take part but they are the party of no.

Hell, this is just the first release of the bill and an updated one is being released Monday. Wonder how many more pages it will be? I bet 300+

Doesn't matter how many pages it takes to correct the abuses of the for profit insurance companies.

I know where you're coming from; I also have watched and been involved in this debate for over 40 years. The conservatives do not believe that there is a problem and are only interested in blocking what is being proposed. Defense of capitalism is a good thing and necessary, but not when it is costing the lives of those who have worked in the private sector and have been betrayed by the greed in it.

I also do not believe the plan in Congress can work. I do believe a public option as outlined above (a non-profit managed by a for-profit company) can work. Leaving to the insurance, health management, manufacturers, for-profit hospital companies to take care of those in need is not an option any more. They've betrayd the public trust, just like those in the banking industry and those in elected public offices have betrayed the public trust.

AZ- you mentioned your mom and the bartering system with the doctor. Do you also recall that back then the local hospitals were almost exclusively non-profits? To make money the cities, counties, etc. sold them off to private sector companies, eliminating that "public option" competition to the privates. That is actually when the costs started spiralling upwards out of control. Somehow we need to put that competitive pressure to rein in prices so care is providable for all again.

So true.

Greg and Matt don't mention the hundreds of millions of dollars paid to CEO's of the major health care companies as they practice their death panels by denying care and payments to millions of subscribers, doctors and hospitals.

Medicare works, the military healthcare system works, the congressional healcare system works.The only thing that seems to not work is the present for profit healthcare companies.

I have health insurance and I no longer want to subsidize those that don't have it and use hospitals as their primary healthcare provider.

Telcoman

[srellim234]

Aud- apparently you're so blinded by your partisanship you are no longer capable of reading. Nowhere have I supported the bill before Congress. Nowhere have I proposed change for the sake of change. And my citing that conservatives don't see a need for change comes from watching conservatives in Congress and debating with conservatives locally who take that stance repeatedly. I've tried to put forth some possible solutions to the problem, which you seem to ignore.

telco- you are incorrect when you say the only thing that doesn't work is the for-profit system. It works well daily for millions more than are in the public systems you cite. What I am looking for is an additional system to cover the millions that are being betrayed by the private system. That still doesn't man it doesn't work for many others.

Somewhere in the middle between you two there are workable solutions to the current healthcare crisis. Try meeting there.

[intermilanrox]

Medicare works, the military healthcare system works, the congressional healcare system works.The only thing that seems to not work is the present for profit healthcare companies.

Telcoman

Does Medicare really work? Medicare needs a major overhaul starting with more people to oversee the requests and search for scams.

I don't know if you saw this or not, but on 60 minutes last week they interviewed a man who had stolen $20 MILLION from Medicare. He rented a low cost store front and pretended to be a medical supply company. Paid for patient numbers and sent requests to Medicare who blindly paid in full for things like wheelchairs and implants, for people who don't need them and most of the time don't even realize that this is happening to them.

If the gov't cant handle Medicare the way it is, I can't see them being able to handle any form of Universal Healthcare.

Just my 2 cents.

[srellim234]

Insurance fraud happens daily to private companies, too. That there is more fraud, percentage-wise, in Medicare as opposed to private care is a great argument as to why a non-profit system for those people we are talking about should be managed by a for-profit company. They would have a financial incentive to prevent the fraud which current government programs haven't addressed well at all.

[AZhitman]

You say I don't know where your money goes. True, but if you were in fact sponsoring someone to help with their healthcare while they needed it the arguments on this site from conservatives would have been

"Here's what we're doing because we're doing it RIGHT NOW in the private sector and it's working." Not "Here's what we should or are willing to do." If the commitment to help your fellow man in that manner was truly there, you'd already be doing it and you'd be telling us how well it is working.

That's the most absurd logic ever.

Not everyone who does something for someone less-fortunate brags about it.

I don't need to "show off" what we're doing. In fact, if we did, the Lefties would come swooping in to "save" those we're helping... After all, they oppose most faith-based initiatives.

I'm all for the private sector: I think a for-profit management company running a non-profit healthcare system for those in need is workable and sustainable. Someone like Kaiser Permanente, who's been really quiet and successful through all of this, would probably be willing to bid on it. They have the experience from medical manufacturing, doctors, hospitals, insurance and contracts in their repertoire right now. We could let them set up a free-standing system or integrate it into their current system as they saw fit.

Agreed. I worked for such a system for a few years. The only downside was difficulty attracting enough $$$ to attract the "best" doctors.

Sorry for the emotional part of the above rant, but I'm truly sick and tired of the lack of empathy and sympathy from you guys regarding people who did bust their butts in the private sector, see themselves now getting screwed and are not getting the right to life they should be.

What if some of us are among that group?

You can't gauge people's responses to things like this on a judgemental scale... Kinda like observing grief - Different people cope differently.

And sympathy is worthless. Always. It accomplishes nothing.

That includes those who are still working in the private sector and are getting cut off by the insurance bean counters from things like cancer care and can't get affordable coverage anywhere else. My feeling is, "Why CAN'T we do something for THOSE people?" That's the magnanimous American way and history of our country regarding others. Let's bring that aid home for Americans.

Just because I don't agree with you on HOW it should be done, doesn't mean I disagree that it SHOULD be done.

For clarification, I support that above statement 100%.

I think you'd find that the TRUE empathy lies NOT in fabricating YET ANOTHER government-run handout program, if you'll read carefully and see through the faux "concern" the current Administration is feigning.

[AZhitman]

...to correct the abuses of the for profit insurance companies.

Anything "for profit" is inherently evil in your left eye, so don't expect a lot of people to share your viewpoint.

I hope your 401K administrator isn't getting paid millions. He doesn't deserve it. They should hire someone to work for $60K a year.

Dumb reasoning, right? Yep. So how is it any different from what you spout?

Greg and Matt don't mention the hundreds of millions of dollars paid to CEO's of the major health care companies as they practice their death panels by denying care and payments to millions of subscribers, doctors and hospitals.

Break out the violins. There should have been a video of puppies being raped along with that post.

Emotional propaganda is irrelevant. Stick to the facts and statistics.

I have health insurance and I no longer want to subsidize those that don't have it and use hospitals as their primary healthcare provider.

Why not?

You're a one-man death panel.

You mean, rich jerk.

Under the Obamallama plan, you will still subsidize them. How can you think you won't?

[AZhitman]

Insurance fraud happens daily to private companies, too. That there is more fraud, percentage-wise, in Medicare as opposed to private care is a great argument as to why a non-profit system for those people we are talking about should be managed by a for-profit company. They would have a financial incentive to prevent the fraud which current government programs haven't addressed well at all.

NOW you're talking.



I deal with a lot of insurance fraud cases. A lot of times, my hands are tied and we can't prosecute. Why? It's government money (usually Federal pass-thru funding, doled out by the state).

[intermilanrox]

Really that's quite interesting. My mom works for an insurance company, used t be a claims processor, and now she does something else, not quite sure what exactly. But, I have never heard her mention any sort of fraudulent cases, but I'll be sure to ask her tomorrow, but it may just be because she works for such a small company.

Anyhow, I'm sure there are frauds in the private sector, but one man stealing $20 million is highly unlikely in the private sector. And the worst part is he said that over 50% of the "medical supply companies" listed in the phonebook were fraudulent.

I don't think the problem is the financial incentive. I think the problem lies in the fact that there is not nearly enough people to watch over everything and if they do catch someone it takes so long that the scammers are long gone, closed up shop and moved on. On 60 minutes there was only like 3 people in one county in Florida looking over things.

On top of that, the man they caught stealing the $20 million was only sentenced to 12 years in jail, that's it. 12 years for stealing $20 million in gov't money, somethings gotta change there as well.

[telcoman]

We have Medicaid and Medicare that we all pay into along with our own individual policies. If someone is "falling through the crack" then it should be looked into. The HC bill as put forth by Congress is simply NOT going to solve things, IMO, and will cause greater employment issues and financial issues to force people under a plan that will be less that what is available today. You seem to keep lumping us in the "we don't care at all" category and that's simply not the case. We don't see the current Administrations direction as being correct and we are going to be vocal about it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------LITTLE GIRL ON A PLANE A Georgia Congressman was seated next to a little girl on the airplane leaving from Atlanta when he turned to her and said, 'Let's talk. I've heard that flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.' The little girl, who had just opened her book, closed it slowly and said to the total stranger, 'What would you like to talk about?' 'Oh, I don't know,' said the southern congressman.' How about global warming or universal health care', and he smiles smugly. OK,she said. Those could be interesting topics. But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?' The southern legislator, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks about it and says, 'Hmmm, I have no idea.' To which the little girl replies, 'Do you really feel qualified to discuss global warming or universal health care when you don't know s***?

I'm assuming the congressman was a republican?

[audtatious]

Must have been. If he were a Democrat she would have first asked him to remove his hand from her purse.

I wish I had gotten some kids here dressed as Obama for Halloween. I'd see how they liked me taking all their candy, equally dividing it out amongst all the kids while taking a large cut for myself.....See how they like it

[smockers83]

I wish I had gotten some kids here dressed as Obama for Halloween. I'd see how they liked me taking all their candy, equally dividing it out amongst all the kids while taking a large cut for myself.....See how they like it

That would've been hilarious. And then, you'd have all the parents coming to your door upset, representing people against Obama and his policies. The kids would represent the blind-eye people going along with it. Great analogy, because adults know it's wrong to take candy from a kid.

That's probably the 2nd best reinterpretation of Halloween I've heard this year. The top one being an adult trick-or-treat where those little bottles of alcohol are passed out, and you have to slam them before leaving the porch and on to the next house.

[RobPaulson]

And Matt you've been listening to Fox and Clear Channel too much

http://www.breitbart.com/artic...cle=1

Sucks to be wrong all the time doesnt it? Learn to research your topic objectively please. (BTW, this was far from the first public announcement of the fact that the GOP was working on compromises and its own bill)

However, I did hear pelosi call the current bill and administration 'transparent' ... ya. If you have 12 years of a legal education under your belt, you MIGHT be able to get through the first chapter by the time the bill gets voted on. Transparent my arse.

And I will go ahead and say my previous posts in this thread were a bit harsh, but the hole sympathy can only go so far. It really, really, really bothers me when i see my tax dollars going to lazy people who want a free ride. Sure, some of the people legit deserve (upstanding, tax paying citizens) help in times of need, however, when you mix in a bottom feeding group into those tax payers to the magnitude of whats going on right now, it makes the rest of us upstanding tax paying citizens want to pull all of our money out of the system and scream 'OH HELL NO!'.

Reform is needed. No question.

The current bill is BAD.

If you are not defending the current bill before congress than i think we may have been misunderstanding eachother a bit. These things happen.

[smockers83]

Medicare works, the military healthcare system works, the congressional healcare system works.The only thing that seems to not work is the present for profit healthcare companies.

Whoa, hold on. Who says it doesn't work? No one has said it doesn't work. No one.

I have health insurance and I no longer want to subsidize those that don't have it and use hospitals as their primary healthcare provider.

Telcoman

Everyone, this should be etched in stone for the ages.

One thing here Howie, is that the proposed healthcare plan, it subsidizes all that s*** to the "40 million" Americans who don't have it. So, if you don't want to subsidize people, how in the hell can you be for the healthcare plan? What you said there in that sentence is exactly against the healthcare proposals.

[audtatious]

You forgot to mention his

Doesn't matter how many pages it takes to correct the abuses of the for profit insurance companies.

When I have shown, via the AMA reports, that Medicare turns down more claims than does any health insurance company.

Ignorance must be bliss. Maybe he should get his head out of Dailykos and the NYTimes.

[audtatious]

Thats your problem!

But you did believe the results in the last election

Watch when happens again next week

So, Howie....What happened? Seems your beloved state has changed hands along with positions in Virginia and New York.....

[RobPaulson]

So, Howie....What happened? Seems your beloved state has changed hands along with positions in Virginia and New York.....

WOOOHOOOO!!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_election_rdp